Help with CA/PA Combination - 35/41

[angeljosephy]

Hi everyone!

I am a newbie on Pricescope but have spent the past few weeks catching up on the knowledge available here. I have noticed that the recommended measurements for an ideal cut are Crown Angle 34%-35% and Pavilion Angle 40.6%-40.9%, with a 41% Pavilion Angle being acceptable for a Crown Angle closer to 34%.

However, I currently have on hand two 1.5 carats which both have 35% Crown Angle and 41% Pavilion Angle. Can anyone explain to me why a 41% Pavilion Angle should be paired with a 34% Crown Angle, and why a 35% Crown Angle should be paired with a 40.6% Pavilion Angle?

Further, is this the reason why my two diamonds have not scored well on the HCA? How will the performance of my diamonds by affected by the 41% Pavilion Angle?

Thank you for reading my ramblings and grateful for any help I can get on this!

1.52 carat, D, VVS2, 3EX, NON
Measurements: 7.35 - 7.39 x 4.58 mm
Table: 56%
Total Depth: 62.1%
Crown Angle: 35%
Crown Depth: 15.5%
Pavilion Angle: 41%
Pavilion Depth: 43.5%
Star Facets: 50%
Lower Girdle Facets: 80%
Girdle: 3.5% (Medium)

1.52 carat, F, VVS2, 3EX, NON
Measurements: 7.38 - 7.43 x 4.53 mm
Table: 59%
Total Depth: 61.2%
Crown Angle: 35%
Crown Depth: 14.5%
Pavilion Angle: 41%
Pavilion Depth: 43.5%
Star Facets: 50%
Lower Girdle Facets: 80%
Girdle: 3.0% (Medium)

 

[TreeScientist]

Here's a good former thread on this topic:https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/ca-pa-combos-34-40-6-vs-34-5-40-8-vs-35-41.215861/

Short answer: 35/41 could potentially lead to light loss, but it depends on the cut of the individual stone. 35/41 doesn't necessarily mean they won't perform well. Can you post pics of the diamonds or, better yet, the IdealScope for both?

 

[ringo865]

Yes, you are correct that those angles are not complementary to each other. And yes you are correct that is why you are getting a low score on the HCA.

Stones with higher crowns must have shower pavilions. Otherwise, they are referred to as steep/deep stones. Your diameter will be affected for spread (look smaller than carat weight would suggest) and light return is compromised.

If you post your budget and desired specs, people on here will help you find stones that will perform better.

 

[angeljosephy]

Thank you both for your replies!! Sorry I haven't responded earlier but I have been away for a while.

@TreeScientist I'm located in Hong Kong and the diamond dealers here don't seem very well versed in terms of ASET/IS. I seem to remember that GIA has a habit of rounding off the crown angles and pavilion angles; it seems that for my diamonds, having a 40.9 or 40.8 pavilion angle rounded up to 41 would bring it within 2 on the HCA. Not likely but a girl can hope eh?

@ringo865 Thank you for offering to help, but I'm not looking to get another 1.5 carat, those 2 diamonds listed above are already mine and I'm just looking for more insight as to whether they are indeed steep/deep and therefore unsatisfactory performers, and specifically the science behind the 35/40.6 and 41/34 magic combinations.

 

[TreeScientist]

Thank you both for your replies!! Sorry I haven't responded earlier but I have been away for a while.

@TreeScientist I'm located in Hong Kong and the diamond dealers here don't seem very well versed in terms of ASET/IS. I seem to remember that GIA has a habit of rounding off the crown angles and pavilion angles; it seems that for my diamonds, having a 40.9 or 40.8 pavilion angle rounded up to 41 would bring it within 2 on the HCA. Not likely but a girl can hope eh?

@ringo865 Thank you for offering to help, but I'm not looking to get another 1.5 carat, those 2 diamonds listed above are already mine and I'm just looking for more insight as to whether they are indeed steep/deep and therefore unsatisfactory performers, and specifically the science behind the 35/40.6 and 41/34 magic combinations.

40.9 may be rounded up to 41 in GIA, but you can never be sure. This is why an AGS certificate is much better for assessing the potential performance of a diamond without ASET or IS, especially when the diamond is on the border of ideal parameters, as they only round to the nearest tenth rather than the nearest two-tenth. That extra tenth can make a big difference in many cases. A 34.9/40.9 would be much different than a 35.0/41.0.

But bottom line, if you like the diamonds and you already own them then why stress yourself out over the angles?

 

[angeljosephy]

40.9 may be rounded up to 41 in GIA, but you can never be sure. This is why an AGS certificate is much better for assessing the potential performance of a diamond without ASET or IS, especially when the diamond is on the border of ideal parameters, as they only round to the nearest tenth rather than the nearest two-tenth. That extra tenth can make a big difference in many cases. A 34.9/40.9 would be much different than a 35.0/41.0.

But bottom line, if you like the diamonds and you already own them then why stress yourself out over the angles?

For some reason AGS is still not well-recognized in my part of the world, with those around me still assuming that GIA 3EX automatically means the cream of the crop. A by-product of this mentality is that no one local seems to be able to help with ASET/IS images or Sarin reports, which frustrates me to no end.

I'm looking forward to getting a super-ideal upgrade (DH has been talking about one for our 10th anniversary, although we're currently only on our 2nd), maybe around the 2.5-3 carat mark, hopefully from Whiteflash or Victora Canera (I'd literally kill for his Emilya ). However, our culture steers us towards high colours (D to F) and high clarities (nothing less than VS, preferably VVS), which makes anything in that carat size grossly unaffordable.

And, true that I should just enjoy my diamonds! But you know how pricescope messes with people's minds...

 

[TreeScientist]

For some reason AGS is still not well-recognized in my part of the world, with those around me still assuming that GIA 3EX automatically means the cream of the crop. A by-product of this mentality is that no one local seems to be able to help with ASET/IS images or Sarin reports, which frustrates me to no end.

I'm looking forward to getting a super-ideal upgrade (DH has been talking about one for our 10th anniversary, although we're currently only on our 2nd), maybe around the 2.5-3 carat mark, hopefully from Whiteflash or Victora Canera (I'd literally kill for his Emilya ). However, our culture steers us towards high colours (D to F) and high clarities (nothing less than VS, preferably VVS), which makes anything in that carat size grossly unaffordable.

And, true that I should just enjoy my diamonds! But you know how pricescope messes with people's minds...

Oh, I'm aware of the over-emphasis of color and clarity in asian cultures. I'm American, but my fiancee is Vietnamese. She personally doesn't care much about those two, but her family and friends definitely would notice if there was even a hint of color. Seems like they would rather have a 0.25 carat D/IF than a 1 carat H/SI1 that is eye-clean. I went with a G/VS1 for this reason.

Maybe you could also drop a bit in color if you wanted to go that large. Honestly, no-one would be able to tell the difference between a D/IF and a G/VS1. It's simply not perceptible. And I'm guessing the price difference would be close to $10,000 at that carat weight.

Yes, PriceScope definitely has a way of pushing people to seek perfection (in cut, that is). Nothing wrong with that at all, but you also should just relax and enjoy at some point.

 

[angeljosephy]

Oh, I'm aware of the over-emphasis of color and clarity in asian cultures. I'm American, but my fiancee is Vietnamese. She personally doesn't care much about those two, but her family and friends definitely would notice if there was even a hint of color. Seems like they would rather have a 0.25 carat D/IF than a 1 carat H/SI1 that is eye-clean. I went with a G/VS1 for this reason.

Maybe you could also drop a bit in color if you wanted to go that large. Honestly, no-one would be able to tell the difference between a D/IF and a G/VS1. It's simply not perceptible. And I'm guessing the price difference would be close to $10,000 at that carat weight.

Yes, PriceScope definitely has a way of pushing people to seek perfection (in cut, that is). Nothing wrong with that at all, but you also should just relax and enjoy at some point.

I am definitely happy with my diamonds! The first one I got from DH for our 2nd anniversary as we got married without an engagement ring (we had just graduated from university without a cent to our names and wedding bands were more than sufficient at the time). The other I recently got as a gift from my mother. It just so happens that they match quite well (both 1.5 carats, VVS2, although one D and one F), so I am envisioning turning them into studs if or when I get an upgraded engagement ring further down the road.

I will definitely be seeking out more advice from all you very helpful pricescopers by the time my next diamond purchase rolls around!

Speaking of your fiancee, I have followed your own thread about looking for an engagement ring previously. Your comment about not wanting to pay the premium for ACA when James Allen True Hearts performs almost as well especially resonates. Will you be showing the completed ring on Show Me the Bling later by any chance?

 

[TreeScientist]

I am definitely happy with my diamonds! The first one I got from DH for our 2nd anniversary as we got married without an engagement ring (we had just graduated from university without a cent to our names and wedding bands were more than sufficient at the time). The other I recently got as a gift from my mother. It just so happens that they match quite well (both 1.5 carats, VVS2, although one D and one F), so I am envisioning turning them into studs if or when I get an upgraded engagement ring further down the road.

I will definitely be seeking out more advice from all you very helpful pricescopers by the time my next diamond purchase rolls around!

Speaking of your fiancee, I have followed your own thread about looking for an engagement ring previously. Your comment about not wanting to pay the premium for ACA when James Allen True Hearts performs almost as well especially resonates. Will you be showing the completed ring on Show Me the Bling later by any chance?

Sounds great, and I agree. Those would make beautiful studs!

Glad you were following my thread. I'll definitely post the pictures in the "Under 1 carat" thread in Show Me the Bling, and I'll also update my thread here on RockyTalky with pictures of the completed ring.

I personally think there's a little too much over-emphasis on this forum concerning the necessity of super-ideals. To me, comparing an AGS 000 that has almost perfect H&A and just a bit of pink in the IS to a Super-Ideal seems similar to that comparison between a G/VS1 and D/IF:

Is there a difference? Sure

Would the average viewer be able to see a difference under ANY realistic scenario while viewing the mounted stone? Highly doubtful

I totally get the idea of paying a little extra for perfection, especially in the instances where a near-H&A and true-H&A are priced fairly similarly. But if there's a significant price difference, as there would have been in my case, it hardly seems worth it to me.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I think you are very fortunate to have stones that well cut, considering there was no knowledge of the prime measurements to search for! The problem with GIA Excellent cut is that about 80% of diamonds submitted to GIA get that grade, which makes the grade alone almost meaningless. That's why we search within narrower parameters to find the best stones. GIA is reliable on color and clarity grading, so they are well respected for that. We just have to know how to select the best cut ones. Your pair of stones will certainly be great for studs in the future and a nice size to pair with a 2.5+ct e-ring diamond!

I'd definitely concur that VS1 is going to be extremely clean and avoid the markup of VVS. I prefer VS1, personally, for that reason. If you have to go colorless, F is great, but I also concur with @TreeScientist that G VS1 is an excellent compromise to be able to get the finest cut stones. G VS1 is also my favorite for modern rounds for a ring.

 

[princessk]

http://diamondbistro.com/category/2...for-2-Ct-cushion-in-victor-canera-emilya.html
OP have you seen this???
Just saw it before I read your thread