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Help with an upgrade - 4ct

urchin

Rough_Rock
Joined
Mar 29, 2013
Messages
25
Hi,

We are upgrading from 3ct I SI1 ideal cut (eye clean). I am pretty happy with the color/clarity grades but wanted a bigger stone.

Here's one serious contender:
4.12ct H SI1
GIA certificate:
http://www.bluenile.com/certs/2156173264.pdf?params=cHJvZHVjdD1CTiZwaG9uZT04ODgtNTY1LTc2NDEmbGluaz1odHRwJTNBJTJGJTJGd3d3LmJsdWVuaWxlLmNvbSUyRl9MRDAyMDg0MzcwJnNrdT1MRDAyMDg0MzcwJmxhYj1naWEmY3VycmVuY3k9VVNEJg==

BN says it's eye clean, no structural issues, and the fluor doesn't negatively affect the performance.

Pros:
- H is a better color grade
- fluor could further help with the perceived color

Cons:
- strong fluor
- is it definitely eye clean?
- table is a little larger than ideal?

Face up shot:
- image_2188.jpg



Would love any feedback please. Thank you!
 

luvdajules

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Mar 24, 2014
Messages
539
Hi OP, HCA i calculated is 5.2 (Fair). The killer is the 41.4 PA. I'd continue looking, but it's a fantastic size! Lucky you. There may not be a lot to choose from in this size, but I'd still insist on a top performer (IS or aset is needed).
 

Gypsy

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
40,198
No way would I want a stone that was a big bad performer. My Aunt has a 5 carat like that. It's like a paperweight. Dull and big.


Here you go, follow the below:
The entire purpose of faceting a diamond is to reflect light.
How well or how poorly a diamond does this determines how beautiful it is.
How well a diamond performs is determined by the angles and cutting. This is why we say cut is king.
No other factor: not color, not clarity has as much of an impact on the appearance of a diamond as its cut. An ideal H will out white a poorly cut F. And GIA Ex is not enough. And you must stick to GIA and AGS only. EGL is a bad option: [URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/egl-certification-are-any-of-them-ok.142863/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/egl-certification-are-any-of-them-ok.142863/[/URL]
So how to we ensure that we have the right angles and cutting to get the light performance we want?
https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/diamond-cut
Well one method is to start with a GIA Ex, and then apply the HCA to it. YOU DO NOT USE HCA for AGS0 stones.
https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/holloway-cut-advisor
The HCA is a rejection tool. Not a selection tool. It uses 4 data points to make a rudimentary call on how the diamond may perform.
If the diamond passes then you know that you are in the right zone in terms of angles for light performance. Under 2 is a pass. Under 2.5-2.1 is a maybe. 2.6 and over is a no. No score 2 and under is better than any other.
Is that enough? Not really.
So what you need is a way to check actual light performance of your actual stone.
That's what an idealscope image does. https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/firescope-idealscope
It shows you how and wear your diamond is reflecting light, how well it is going at it, and where you are losing light return. That is why you won't see us recommending Blue Nile, as they do not provide idealscope images for their diamonds. BGD, James Allen, GOG, HPD, ERD and WF do.

The Idealscope is the 'selection tool'. Not the HCA.
So yes, with a GIA stone you need the idealscope images. Or you can buy an idealscope yourself and take it in to the jeweler you are working with to check the stones yourself. Or if you have a good return policy (full refund minimum 7 days) then you can buy the idealscope, buy the stone, and do it at home.


Now if you want to skip all that... stick to AGS0 stones and then all you have to do is pick color and clarity and you know you have a great performing diamond. Because AGS has already done the checking for you. That's why they trade at a premium.


I'd call Wink at High Performance Diamonds and have him source a nice beauty for you. His customer service is excellent and his eye is fantastic.
 

SirGuy

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Jun 14, 2014
Messages
441
Agreed, unless the Ideal-Scope and ASET looks great for some reason, I'd look at something else. That's a big table and a deep pavilion angle for what it's trying to do.

Size doesn't make up for cut. A bigger stone that's not cut as well is simply more of less. :wavey:
 

Gypsy

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
40,198

urchin

Rough_Rock
Joined
Mar 29, 2013
Messages
25
luvdajules|1408421500|3735269 said:
Hi OP, HCA i calculated is 5.2 (Fair). The killer is the 41.4 PA. I'd continue looking, but it's a fantastic size! Lucky you. There may not be a lot to choose from in this size, but I'd still insist on a top performer (IS or aset is needed).
luvdajules, ah I didn't think of using the HCA! It doesn't look spectacular, I agree...

To be perfectly honest, I've always wondered a little - if HCA and ASET help to figure out the top 1% (or even 10%?) of the GIA Ex stones, which are judged by their visual performance as "Excellent", are we really just splitting hairs here? Or is the performance difference clearly visible to the naked eye of a non-trained human (or a non-Periscope member)?

I, in general, prefer to get as close to "perfect" as I can, but just wondering... not to start a philosophical discussion or anything :)
 

urchin

Rough_Rock
Joined
Mar 29, 2013
Messages
25
Gypsy|1408421988|3735273 said:
No way would I want a stone that was a big bad performer. My Aunt has a 5 carat like that. It's like a paperweight. Dull and big.
Well, I definitely don't want that! :)

The entire purpose of faceting a diamond is to reflect light.
This is why we say cut is king.

one method is to start with a GIA Ex, and then apply the HCA to it. YOU DO NOT USE HCA for AGS0 stones.
https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/holloway-cut-advisor

Is that enough? Not really.
So what you need is a way to check actual light performance of your actual stone.
That is why you won't see us recommending Blue Nile, as they do not provide idealscope images for their diamonds. BGD, James Allen, GOG, HPD, ERD and WF do.
Thank you for all the super helpful tips! I definitely needed to review my diamond facts and your post was just perfect for that :dance:

I agree that BN is not ideal for ASET/IS images. But their prices do seem quite a bit lower than the other sources. Or am I wrong? At least when I look for GIA Ex, round brilliant, H-I, SI1-VS2, the stones on BN seem quite a bit cheaper (with a wider price range) than anywhere else.

Re: AGS. I thought they were in general a grade lower than GIA? Am I wrong and thinking of EGL?

Now if you want to skip all that... stick to AGS0 stones
What about this one?
http://www.bluenile.com/diamond-search?stockno=LD04439472

I'd call Wink at High Performance Diamonds and have him source a nice beauty for you. His customer service is excellent and his eye is fantastic.
Thanks for the reference! I'll try Wink.

Frankly, I had a bad experience with another diamond dealer that's often praised on this platform, thus my desire to use BN and bypass a broker/jeweler. We bought my original stone from them because of their trade-in policy, but if no one is getting back to me regarding my questions on the upgrade (after repeat emails and calls), what use is that anyway...
 

Gypsy

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
40,198
Clearly visible. NOTHING impacts a diamond as much as cut. Not color or clarity. It's cut that matters. And yes, it is DEFINITELY visible.
 

urchin

Rough_Rock
Joined
Mar 29, 2013
Messages
25
RockyRacoon|1408486797|3735751 said:
Here are a couple of stones worth considering:

4.1ct, H, VS2
http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/10169/

4.09ct, H, VS2
http://www.briangavindiamonds.com/diamonds/diamond-details/4.090-h-vs2-round-diamond-ags-bl-104065989001


The mention of reaching out to Wink at HPD is also a great idea. He may be able to find you exactly what you need!
RockyRacoon, thank you so much for the suggestions! The stones look very nice, indeed :)

But, the BG diamond is quite a bit more than we would like to spend... not sure about GOG pricing but I think they are probably similar'ish??
 

Gypsy

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
40,198

urchin

Rough_Rock
Joined
Mar 29, 2013
Messages
25
Gypsy|1408487356|3735758 said:
What about this one I posted for you earlier?
See if they can get this one for you (give them the lab report number): http://www.gia.edu/cs/Satellite/?childpagename=GIA/Page/ReportCheck&pagename=GIA/Dispatcher&c=Page&cid=1355954554547&reportno=5151354587 It's got nice proportions and medium blue fluorescence. If it is not over blue and they can get it for you, it would be a nice stone.

It's listed on Solomon Brothers for this price:
Cash Price $78,425
Credit Price: $80,851
Gypsy, somehow my earlier reply didn't post!

Beautiful stone but we'd like to stay under $60-65K... so unfortunately it's out of our price range :roll:
 

RockyRacoon

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Feb 7, 2013
Messages
1,315
urchin|1408487249|3735756 said:
RockyRacoon|1408486797|3735751 said:
Here are a couple of stones worth considering:

4.1ct, H, VS2
http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/10169/

4.09ct, H, VS2
http://www.briangavindiamonds.com/diamonds/diamond-details/4.090-h-vs2-round-diamond-ags-bl-104065989001


The mention of reaching out to Wink at HPD is also a great idea. He may be able to find you exactly what you need!
RockyRacoon, thank you so much for the suggestions! The stones look very nice, indeed :)

But, the BG diamond is quite a bit more than we would like to spend... not sure about GOG pricing but I think they are probably similar'ish??
I believe you are correct. With your budget in mind, I think both of these would be out of the price range.

Best of luck in finding something that works!
 

Gypsy

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
40,198
Little low on the crown but an AGS 0. I think it's a very strong contender. And it is definitely an improvement over your last choices.
 

arkieb1

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
May 11, 2012
Messages
8,687
Diamondnut had a very nice 4 carat H & A stone for sale, she sold her 3+ carat stone but I am not sure if the 4+ carat is still for sale or has been sold you should be able to contact her here via any of her listings;

http://loupetroop.com/users/diamondnut

If that is out of your price range then contact some of the vendors that the others have mentioned above and see what they can source for you within your budget.
 

luvdajules

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Mar 24, 2014
Messages
539
Hi OP, the BN stone you linked is promising, hca is 1.8 or 1.9. I could not see the inclusion plot but I think it had clouds, feather, and indented natural. Ask BN if any of those inclusion negatively effect brilliance or transparency, clouds especially. Ask about the indented natural (natural chip? or girdle surface irregularity). The price is unbelievable, makes me think a larger stone is in my future one day, lol. Definitely have it appraised by someone who can do a full work up for you with reflector images, IS, hearts, arrows. Also, with bigger stones like these, I've noticed those images look like the GOG images that rocky raccoon posted. But maybe that's just a coincidence. It's good to have some type of baseline. Another vote for calling Wink.
 

cflutist

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jul 12, 2004
Messages
3,825
I also recommend that you call Wink. I've known him for 10 years now and have completed 3 different projects with him.
He's good people and will take care of you.

You mentioned that this 4 ct is a stepping stone to your eventual 5 ct diamond.
If you buy a CBI diamond, not only will you be getting an AGS0, perfectly cut diamond,
but Wink tells me that there is also a lifetime trade-up policy.

From his website:
Lifetime Trade-Up: Infinity credits 100% of your diamond’s purchase price, less applicable tax and shipping, toward a more expensive Infinity through the original authorized Infinity dealer. Diamond and grading report must be in original undamaged condition. Setting and other charges may apply.

Also, if you don't see what you want currently available in the CBI inventory, they can custom cut one for you. This is what I'm planning to do in the next couple of months.
 

Wink

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
May 3, 2001
Messages
7,366
urchin|1408485334|3735738 said:
<Snip>
luvdajules, ah I didn't think of using the HCA! It doesn't look spectacular, I agree...

To be perfectly honest, I've always wondered a little - if HCA and ASET help to figure out the top 1% (or even 10%?) of the GIA Ex stones, which are judged by their visual performance as "Excellent", are we really just splitting hairs here? Or is the performance difference clearly visible to the naked eye of a non-trained human (or a non-Periscope member)?

I, in general, prefer to get as close to "perfect" as I can, but just wondering... not to start a philosophical discussion or anything :)
My experience with putting three to five diamonds in a slotted tray for clients to look at and not telling them anything about any of the diamonds that they are looking at is that in well over 95% of the time the "lesser" cut diamonds are the first ones eliminated. I put lesser in quotes because often the diamonds being compared are all AGS 0's. Even amongst the AGS0's some diamonds just "have it" better than others, and side by side it is very obvious.

When you start looking at GIA graded diamonds you are no longer certain to be comparing apples to apples, but rather are often looking at apples to oranges to even a few polliwogs, all with the "coveted but useless" GIA XXX grade.

So, yes, the tools matter. GIA may be judged as Excellent but still be worse looking than you can imagine without actually seeing some of their outliers. When you do you will find it hard to imagine that they really got the GIA Excellent grade, but they did. Sigh.

I have had the results of having a top cut diamond selected with experienced viewers and with people looking at diamonds for the first time. Better is really better. The question lies in how much better are you willing to pay for. When all of the diamonds are beautiful by themselves, are you willing to pay more to have the one that looks the best when seen with others?

Wink
 

Wink

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
May 3, 2001
Messages
7,366
Well, here is one from the International School of Gemology.



big-frog.jpg

Wink
 

OoohShiny

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 25, 2014
Messages
6,306
I can't even tell what that is?? :???:
 

Bonfire

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Feb 22, 2014
Messages
2,900
Gypsy|1408421988|3735273 said:
No way would I want a stone that was a big bad performer. My Aunt has a 5 carat like that. It's like a paperweight. Dull and big.

Haha, Gypsy you crack me up! But so true!


Here you go, follow the below:
The entire purpose of faceting a diamond is to reflect light.
How well or how poorly a diamond does this determines how beautiful it is.
How well a diamond performs is determined by the angles and cutting. This is why we say cut is king.
No other factor: not color, not clarity has as much of an impact on the appearance of a diamond as its cut. An ideal H will out white a poorly cut F. And GIA Ex is not enough. And you must stick to GIA and AGS only. EGL is a bad option: [URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/egl-certification-are-any-of-them-ok.142863/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/egl-certification-are-any-of-them-ok.142863/[/URL]
So how to we ensure that we have the right angles and cutting to get the light performance we want?
https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/diamond-cut
Well one method is to start with a GIA Ex, and then apply the HCA to it. YOU DO NOT USE HCA for AGS0 stones.
https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/holloway-cut-advisor
The HCA is a rejection tool. Not a selection tool. It uses 4 data points to make a rudimentary call on how the diamond may perform.
If the diamond passes then you know that you are in the right zone in terms of angles for light performance. Under 2 is a pass. Under 2.5-2.1 is a maybe. 2.6 and over is a no. No score 2 and under is better than any other.
Is that enough? Not really.
So what you need is a way to check actual light performance of your actual stone.
That's what an idealscope image does. https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/firescope-idealscope
It shows you how and wear your diamond is reflecting light, how well it is going at it, and where you are losing light return. That is why you won't see us recommending Blue Nile, as they do not provide idealscope images for their diamonds. BGD, James Allen, GOG, HPD, ERD and WF do.

The Idealscope is the 'selection tool'. Not the HCA.
So yes, with a GIA stone you need the idealscope images. Or you can buy an idealscope yourself and take it in to the jeweler you are working with to check the stones yourself. Or if you have a good return policy (full refund minimum 7 days) then you can buy the idealscope, buy the stone, and do it at home.


Now if you want to skip all that... stick to AGS0 stones and then all you have to do is pick color and clarity and you know you have a great performing diamond. Because AGS has already done the checking for you. That's why they trade at a premium.


I'd call Wink at High Performance Diamonds and have him source a nice beauty for you. His customer service is excellent and his eye is fantastic.
 

Gypsy

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
40,198
The thing makes me twitch Bonfire. Every time I see it I clean it ( :sick: ) for her. And even clean the stupid thing is dull. I have been trying to get her to have the thing recut for YEARS. It would be dazzling if it had better cut and would probably look larger, even if it weighed less. But that's doesn't compute.
 

Bonfire

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Feb 22, 2014
Messages
2,900
Geez, well no lack of trying on your part. Somethings just defy logic. For some people it's just a numbers game, even if it's the wrong numbers :wall:
 
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