HELP! What is this??

[rainydaze]

my mom just bought a diamond, it is J color, very good cut (GIA), SI1 but we saw the charted enclusions and in the store, with a loupe could not locate them. they were hard for the jeweler to find as well, but once he did he could locate them again fairly easily. i believe they were off to the sides. here''s the problem (in my mother''s words).....

"i see this funny mushy golden bullseye, every time i look at it. more so, in regular lights and dusk like conditions, never noticed it in the store at all. so, it occurred to me to try putting a white background between the ring and my finger, still there. so, now i''m concerned. i have never seen anything like this in any diamond i have ever looked at. usually you will see a blackness, but i think that can''t be helped. like you say it could be a prong or the natural reflection of diamond off whatever. i have always seen that, but never this, it is disturbing."

her diamond sits VERY high in the setting (a veraggio with pave on the prongs) and all sides are completely exposed. she originally thought it was her finger showing through the little ''hole'' in the ring below the cutlet, but her paper test seems to disprove that. does this occur with a J color? we ran the numbers in the HCA, we did not get a fisheye warning (it was very good, purchase if price is right) and fisheye would be black/gray, right??

i will see it for myself in a couple of days and might be able to post some pics too. but in the mean time i was wondering if anyone has experienced a similar effect or knows what this could be?

thank you!!

 

[chrono]

I don''t think this has anything to do with a J colour. If you are colour sensitive and can see the tint, the warmth will be seen evenly distributed throughout the stone and not as a mushroomy thing or only on parts of the diamond. A picture will help considerably to help me understand what she is seeing.

 

[rainydaze]

that''s what i thought (about the color). i''ll post pics as soon as i can get ''em (probably sunday). thanks chrono!

 

[rainydaze]

more from my mom....


you know i''m comparing it with my white pear, and i, of course can see the difference from white to yellow, and i think it is the yellow condensing in the middle, so it stands out. it''s very funny. never noticed it in the store. but, right away when i got it there was a pinpoint of deep yellow in middle and when turned a angles it blurs and gets bigger. i really think it is the color J factor. cause, a white stone will condense to black, no? while a yellow will condense a deeper yellow. wish i had known that, but i bet that''s what it is, has to be.

 

[belle]

i think it could be the color. well, not the color itself but the color combined with the cut. do you have the measurements?

 

[chrono]

I noticed the HCA gave the stone a rating of Very Good? What is the exact score? It could be that the cut isn't great (I like scores of between 0 and 1), and therefore the J colour is more apparent? I am beginning to think the not so good cut is playing a role in this after re-reading your original post about the HCA score.

My J OEC and J Jubilee (both of which are very well cut) are nothing but white white white.

 

[rainydaze]

ok, let me see....... HCA score 3.5.












Selected: 62.3% depth, 55% table, 35° crown angle, 41.2° pavilion angle
The result is for a symmetrical diamond with a medium girdle and very good polish
HCA scores were adjusted Dec. 15, 2001 and Feb. 6, 2003.





















Crown angle 35.0


Depth 62.3%


Table 55 %


culet none


Girdle thin


medium faceted

 

[rainydaze]

oops, guess i should have previewd my last post! i copied and pasted the HCA results, but it doesn't show up.

Score 3.5
Light return very good
Fire good
Scintillation good
Spread very good


ETA: i also thank you all for trying to help, i really appreciate it! THAT didn't show up either!

 

[chrono]

Ummm, with a HCA score of 3.5, I really would pinpoint the cause to a not so good cut. Can the diamond be exchanged for something better? Something between 0 and 2 is the goal.

 

[rainydaze]

oh no!! well that would stink, here i was on PS hoping to try and help her and i ran the #s and i STILL didn''t help her avoid a bummer stone. well, we''ll certainly take it back and see what, if anything, they can do.

 

[chrono]

I'm sorry.

I hope you can find something better cut. Let me see if I can find some round specs to help out.
http://www.diamond-cut.com.au/23_bicfic.htm

crown angles close to 35
pavilion angle around 40.8
No more than 62% depth

 

[rainydaze]

thanks chrono!!! your help means a lot to me, just makes me feel better at least!

 

[rainydaze]

ok, we are about 1-2 days away from the 30 day return window. i guess they offer a full refund within 30 days (we called anonymously). so given the tight timeframe, my mom is going down there now to (hopefully) return the stone (and keep the setting which she also bought from them and which took her 3 years to find. she LOVES it and it''s sized to her finger anyway). and then the plan will be to send the setting in to WF or GOG or one of the other good guys and get her a better diamond.

*crossing fingers* i hope this all goes smoothly!!

 

[chrono]

Excellent plan! I feel much better if you can get your stone from a trusted PS vendor, be it WF, GOG or any of those that we usually recommend.

 

[cinnamon013]

Sounds like a great plan!

 

[Diamond*Dana]

Good luck in finding the perfect stone!

 

[rainydaze]

well unfortunately it doesn''t appear it''s going to go that way after all. she went down there and they said they would extend her period by 5 days (might have been 10) so she could show me and make a decision. i recommended going back in there and return it; i think it is pretty clear it will bug her and she can do much better for her money, plus she was there and had the gumption then. and i mentioned that they may just be trying to get past the time when she can return so that she can only exchange with the whole 5 day thing. she went back in to confirm and they told her she cannot return. she put her deposit down on the 5th so it''s past 30 days. however, she completed her payment and picked the ring up on the 8th. personally i think this is splitting hairs and they should honor the return. what do you guys think? the person who sold it to her is also the manager and on vaca, and they said he would have to make the call. and if she exchanged, she''s going to have to pay more to get a better cut OR go up in color, correct? is it at all possible to stay in the same cut/color/carat range but get a ''nice'' one?

part of the problem is that she didn''t look at it when she picked up - she gave it to my dad who ''suprised'' her with it less than a week ago. she saw the issue right away, but because it wasn''t presented right after it was finally purchased, she was left with less time to act.

ugh. she really deserves something really nice and this just stinks.

 

[rainydaze]

thanks chrono, cinnamon and diamonddana..... i''m still going to hope for the best here. again, i appreciate the help and responses!

 

[WorkingHardforSmallRewards]

I think you need to start a new thread that says "Legal help needed" or something like that, and hopefully that will get the attention of some of the legal buffs in the area.

then I think you should put up a price, we can''t really say yet if they had a nice price or good selectino . It could just be the stone choice, and the prices are fair and you coudl exchange and get a nice deal as well.

Then I think you need to get exact documentation on their return policy and do some studying yourself and try to find an answer! Def check the receipt, if it says from purchase then I don''t think there is any question that it is from the 8th.

Non theless, I think at this point it merits a new thread for the change in events.

 

[rainydaze]

well, i have seen it for myself now and i couldn''t see anything but a really beautiful, sparkling, scintillating diamond. as i could in the store, i can detect some warmth, especially from the side of course, but this is overall as expected.

apparently when she went back in to the store, the woman who helped her said that some people are able to see the color in this way, but most don''t, something my mom didn''t tell me until after i looked at it and declared i couldn''t see anything. i believe this may be true since my mom can see it but no matter how hard i looked, i could not. had we known about this ''phenomenon'' we would have known my mom would be one to see it (she always sees things others don''t) and we would have then stayed away from the warmer colors.

as it is, i now do believe we still got a great diamond for a fair price (it was under 6k) just as the HCA advised, and that we were in no way ''swindled'' by the jeweler. he was very accomodating during the process and many times we asked to view it under different light to which he did his best for us. other than being able to see this pinpoint of warmth that travels as she turns the diamond in low lighting, it is truly beautiful, even to her, so i think she''s going to live with it. ideally it would have been nice to return it and start over with an online vendor, but i''m not sure she was necessarily up for the task. it''s been exhausting already! and with an exchange, she''d have to pay more to go higher in color or cut, which i''m not sure is worth it to her to go through the hassle again. our initial frustration was at not having enough time to really decide what she wanted to do.

thank you to all who responded, your help was very much appreciated!

 

[Lorelei]

I am glad this is sorted out! Another way to think is as a diamond is a gemstone, that this unique feature acts to personalize it and makes it easily distinguishable from other diamonds, a birthmark if you will!

 

[chrono]

I am sorry that your mom has such a discerning eye.

Nevertheless, I am glad that everyone is happy with the final outcome.

 

[rainydaze]

very true lorelei - in fact we looked at an I SI1 and both felt endeared to the inclusions which we could see with a loupe, so hopefully she can feel this way about the color as you say!

thanks chrono - her ''eye'' definately has its blessings and its curses!

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 7/10/2007 11:31:42 AM
Author: rainydaze
very true lorelei - in fact we looked at an I SI1 and both felt endeared to the inclusions which we could see with a loupe, so hopefully she can feel this way about the color as you say!

thanks chrono - her ''eye'' definately has its blessings and its curses!

Glad to help! One of the experts here, I can''t remember who, told a story about a diamond which GIA had graded as I1 clarity, the inclusion which was visible looked like a little man in a sled and because it was so unique, GIA even made a note in the comments section of the report. I think it was mounted into a pendant and quickly sold! So your Mom''s golden bullseye makes hers special too. I also remember another inclusion which looked like a little boot or a slipper on another diamond.

 

[JohnQuixote]

Date: 7/6/2007 11:00:19 AM
Author:rainydaze

'i see this funny mushy golden bullseye, every time i look at it. more so, in regular lights and dusk like conditions, never noticed it in the store at all. so, it occurred to me to try putting a white background between the ring and my finger, still there. so, now i'm concerned. i have never seen anything like this in any diamond i have ever looked at. usually you will see a blackness, but i think that can't be helped. like you say it could be a prong or the natural reflection of diamond off whatever. i have always seen that, but never this, it is disturbing.'

Sometimes when we get something new we can be superanalytic (say it isn't so!).

After reading the description it sounds like your mom, who's very perceptive, is seeing a perfectly natural cut effect in certain light. A 'mushy bullseye' sounds like the diamond's table reflection (a natural reflection of the table seen deep in the pavilion). This reflection gets bigger as the pavilion gets deeper; see the arrows pointing to the effect in the simulations below.It’s not viewable in many conditions but may be perceivable when the diamond is illuminated from the side.That could be light from a table lamp, reflected from the walls or coming from the horizon, for instance.

Diamond graders look for this effect in darkfield illumination to judge pavilion depth. The larger the table reflection the deeper the pavilion. Describing it as 'golden' makes sense in a J color, because at 41+ the steeper the pavilion angle the more it entraps any body color present.This is why fancy colored diamonds are often cut with deeper proportions than rounds in the D-Z range. It's nothing to worry about and the most important thing is that the diamond perfoms well and looks beautiful to her.

 

[rainydaze]

thank you for that explanation john!! that makes me feel a lot better - it''s not some horrible defect!