Help, Please! Unbiased Perspective Needed!

[Haven]

Hi, Ladies,

I''m not a very active poster here, but I do lurk around a lot, and everyone has such great advice, so thank you!

Here''s my dilemma:

How long is too long to wait for BF to propose? How do you know the difference between a man who is just taking his sweet time (boy time, I think we call it!) and a man who just doesn''t want to be married, yet he doesn''t want to lose you, either? I love my man so much, I cannot imagine being without him, BUT I don''t want to bully him into marrying me, and I definitely don''t want to spend years in a relationship with a man who is ultimately going in a different direction.

Here''s our story:

BF and I have been together for three years, we do not live together, and we have discussed marriage and how important it is for both of us. Around the time we had been dating for two years, I told him that I was ready to move along, and we had one of those "are we both on the same page?" discussions. We discussed that we both wanted to be together, to get married, have kids, yadda yadda yadda. It seemed like we both wanted the same things.

Fast forward one year--we are STILL just dating, things are pretty much exactly the same as they were one year ago. While he is not averse to discussing our future, he generally responds with things like "of COURSE I want to be with you" and "of course we''re going to get married, honey, I love you" YET he is reluctant to discuss details such as when it is going to happen.

I''m pretty sure he has not done any ring shopping, so it seems that he has not made any concrete plans to propose any time soon. He knows exactly what kind of ring I want, as we''ve discussed this, and he also knows that it will take some time to have the ring made.

Here''s some other useful info:
- I''m 26, he''s 37 (never married, no kids)
- We are both financially stable, no money issues here at all.
- Our friends are all either married, newlyweds, or planning their weddings, so it isn''t like he''s surrounded by a bunch of bachelors anymore.
- I''m a teacher, so I have a very rigid schedule. He knows that if he does not propose this summer, we''ll likely have to wait for the summer of 2009 to get married so we can have at least a year-long engagement (in order to allow time for proper planning.)
- I love this man. I do not want to leave him, but I do not want to get "stuck" in a relationship that doesn''t work for me.

So, ladies, what do you think? How long is too long to spend in a relationship without getting a serious commitment? Is he just being a silly man, taking his sweet time? I know many of you have been with your men longer than me, so please--share some wisdom!


Thank you!

Haven

 

[Pandora II]

For me, at his age it''s starting to be "too long".

I reckon if you haven''t got at least active discussion after 18 months with a guy in their 30''s, you will need to push.

I would recommend getting copies of "Why Men Marry Some Women and not Others" and "Sealing the Deal" and put their advice into action. It basically boils down to telling the man:

"Honey I love you and love being with you, but I also want to get married and have children and you need to let me know if you are not ready to move forward on this, because I will need time to find someone else if you''re not and I''m not getting any younger."

This gets round the men not understanding subtle hints, puts you in a strong position and makes you appear strong and confident not like you are begging.

Once you have done this, you MUST stick to it or you have lost.

I did this with my FI from about a year into the relationship, he isn''t a marriage fan - but we''re engaged and looking forward to the wedding and he''s very happy and proud about it now.

Trust me, it''s hard but remember over 70% of men have to be shoved on the proposal issue! Those soppy movies and books are not like real life - just look at all the LIW dilemmas here!

 

[iwannaprettyone]

Haven,

If you look at how long some of the other women have been together in LIW then you will see that many of us have been together with the bf for 5,6,7,8,9, 10 years.

Only you can decide whether you need to stay or go. I have been with mine 3 and a half years, I love him and I don''t wanna leave but there may come a time when thats what I have to do. I bet ya he is probably being a silly a$$ and taking his sweet time!!!


Sorry I can''t be more helpful....

I know it is SUPER frustrating!!!!


Kathryn



"Men, can''t live with ''em can''t live without ''em!"

 

[janinegirly]

hi there, i''ve been where you are except i was/am in my 30''s, so felt even more urgency. Also dated 3 yrs, bf older, several discussions and positive signs but slow action. (i''m happily engaged now though!).

alot of what you''re asking is hard for us to judge from afar, but here are some thoughts which you can take or leave as they apply to you:

*yes it does sound like you''ve covered all your bases (had the right discussions, told him what you''d like)
*it sounds like he does intend on marrying you or at least sharing a future together
*it sounds like you are ready now

having said that, i think you might have different timelines. Might with a big "M" because he might also be ring searching as we speak. i think in this case you should have a discussion with him--not to rehash, but just to say that you''re so happy with him (and all that nice stuff), but you''ve now had several discussions, seem to be on the same page--so is there anything he''d like to talk about or can he give you a sense of his timing? Tell him you are ready now to move forward and it''s hard to be patient with the unknown. Really the more you guys communicate on this the better, or else you''ll drive yourself crazy analysing. If he gives you a timeline and misses it or is unable to give some specifics, then you might have a case of someone being afraid to lose you but not willing to commit. Doesn''t sound like it''s at that point yet, so have a chat with him on this first.

Another relevant question is: what is his history? Seeing how he''s now 37--was he married before or in a long term relationship that didn''t work out? Is he or has he been unsure about marriage? Those are fair questions..

good luck and let us know how it goes.

 

[Independent Gal]

I'm with Pandora on this one. I think it's time for a serious push. Particularly given his age. If there's no reason why he's not moving forward, then either he doesn't get that time is flowing by or he doesn't want to get married, but doesn't want to lose you either.

I know of so many guys dating women in my circle of friends who 'talk the talk'...even look at rings, discuss the future, to keep the girl around when she starts getting antsy, but when push comes to shove they don't want to (or can't) commit. Sometimes the girl sticks around for ages and the effects are devastating.

In other cases, the guy just doesn't get that time is passing, or that the girl wants things to move forward soon, and as soon as he really GETS it, everything falls into place and everyone is happy!

You need to find out which SOON. So, I would sit him down and say something like Pandora suggested. Make clear that you're not sticking around indefinitely. Tell him you'd like to chat again soon about a timeline he'd be comfortable with. And tell him you're very serious.

Be strong and assertive! Let him know you're not waiting forever. That's not bullying him, that's informing him that marriage and kids on the sooner side are important to you, and if it's not going to be with him, you need to know that.

ETA: I really like Janine's suggestion of phrasing the talk in terms of 'Is there something wrong I'm not aware of?' That sends the same message, but less confrontationaly maybe.

 

[Erin]

We dated for 3 years and I was pretty consistent on trying to get a firm answer out of him on the commitment issue. I was happy to wait as long as I was certain we were both on the same page. But no matter how he tried to console me that he would promise in the future that someday blah blah blah - it never did seem like we were on the same page. Much like your boyfriend he did nothing about moving forward. He did no ring shopping - claiming this was something he wanted to come to a decision about on his own - not because I was ''badgering'' him about it.

Fast forward to 5.5 years. I broke it off. He moved out - supposedly a temporary situation. Wouldn''t you guess - he was ready for everything. Finally he wanted everything I wanted and he wanted it now. Funny thing is, because it took moving out for him to want it - I didn''t anymore. I thought to myself, I want somebody who can''t wait to be with me because I''m pretty fantastic. I don''t want to be somebody you only realize you want because they''re gone.

Pandora''s right. Stick to what YOU want. A gal is viewed as very appealing when she has her own thing going on and is strong enough to not need you. If everything is fine the way it is - why change?

 

[Haven]

Ladies—thank you all so much for your advice, I truly appreciate it.

Pandora—thank you for the book recommendations, I will definitely check those out. I love your synopsis of the main idea, with just that small glimpse I feel much better armed to approach a conversation about the topic. And CONGRATULATIONS on your engagement!

Kathryn—thanks for your support, and your response made me smile which totally lightened my mood!

Janine—Your analysis is spot-on, thank you for that. Just like Pandora’s suggestion, your words really equipped me with some excellent ways to actually get my ideas out, so thank you! And CONGRATULATIONS on your engagement, as well! Oh, and to answer your questions—he has never been married, and I don’t know of any doubt he has about marriage. He was in a long term relationship during graduate school, but it did not leave him with any scars or anything, as far as I know.

IndyGirl—I also know of women who stuck with relationships that were not going anywhere, and you’re right, it was devastating for them in the end. I actually have friends who dated for 10 years, FINALLY got engaged, and then broke it off three months after the engagement. It was horrible. Anyway, thank you very much for your advice!

Starset—Thank you for sharing your story, you sound very strong and sure of yourself. I absolutely agree with your assertion that someone is appealing when she has her own thing going on, and the truth is that I do have my own thing going on, but now I’m ready for this one particular part of my life to move forward, which makes it frustrating the way it is. I love your advice, though, and your strength makes me feel much better about this decision I may have to make.

I had no idea how much better I’d feel after airing my frustrations to you guys—thank you so much for helping!

Here’s a bit more background, since my typing fingers are already flying:
My last serious relationship lasted five years, and the tables were turned—he was extremely eager to settle down and commit, and I was not even close to being ready. We were both in grad school at the time (so we were far too young, I thought), and although I loved him, I just knew that he wasn’t THE ONE. It is very strange for me to find myself on the other side of the fence, so to speak; I am normally the one slowing things down and preaching patience and s p a c e !

I also just finished the school year of teaching so now I’m on summer break, so I went from being extremely busy to being extremely free, and now my mind has too much time to wander!

Sorry for the length, I type as fast as I think!

Thanks, all!

 

[Independent Gal]

Glad we could help!

You''ll always find a friendly ear here if you want to vent a little or if you need a sounding board.

So, are you going to have a talk with him? (EEK! I hope that doesn''t sound pushy. Just curious!)

 

[anchor31]

I''m a very forward kind of person. If I want something or want to know something, I ask. You want to get married in summer 2008 and you want to have a year-long engagement... So tell him. You''ve discussed everything and nothing apparent should be holding him back... So what is he waiting for? If he stalls, you have your answer.

Good luck!

 

[IrishAngel7982]

The other gals have given great advice, but I think you should definitely talk to him. This is clearly bothering you so you two should be able to talk about it as adults and figure out what will happen. Good luck!

 

[monarch64]

Date: 6/4/2007 7:00:04 PM
Author: anchor31
I''m a very forward kind of person. If I want something or want to know something, I ask. You want to get married in summer 2008 and you want to have a year-long engagement... So tell him. You''ve discussed everything and nothing apparent should be holding him back... So what is he waiting for? If he stalls, you have your answer.

Good luck!

I couldn''t have said it better.

 

[MustangFan]

I''d say he should know what he wants by own in his late 30''s, IMO, 3 years is kinda long, I''d tell him you want a proposal within the next 2-6 months and you want the wedding to be summer of 08. What''s he waiting for? Your financial stable and I''m sure he doesn''t have to safe much for a ring.

When you know you know, FI AND I are 29 and 24 are we knew at 6 months, me at two days. lol We are be no means financial stable, but we love each other and that''s all that matters.
I would definitely have a problem with being an older parent if you plan to have children, I would want to be married for a couple of years at least before we finally got down to business. I know this has nothing to do with it, but it kinda does and would be important to me

 

[grapegravity]

I have been with my bf for almost 10 years now, and we have been semi-engaged since 2004... And for me, I don''t mind to wait until my bf ready to take up the responsibilities of marriage and having kids.. Everyone has diffrerent opinion on when to get married... I think in your case, he is taking his sweet time... I have a friend who are in similair situation as you (she''s 26 and he is in late 30s) and she also has the same problem...

In my opinion, as the guy gets older and with financial stability, they tend to think that they can shop around and take their time to pick who''s the lucky girl...

Good luck!

 

[bee*]

Ive been with my bf for 8 years next mth (im 25 and he''s nearly 27) and we are buying our ring next month. We had a big talk last year as I was feeling ready to move on, and he nearly was and we had a frank discussion and I told him what I would like and he said what he was like and since then, he''s been very excited about buying it and has looked at it on the internet a lot. I would definitely advise that you have a talk with him and lay out exactly what you want, by what date. Tell him you want a summer 2008 date and see what he says. It does sound like he is just taking his sweet time about it.

 

[janinegirly]

hi haven,
may i ask where you live (or what part of the country)?
i only ask because it seems like a lot of people think that at his age he should be ready asap or know what he wants-- and i know it's not always the case. where i live (nyc), there are plenty of guys in their 30's who are single and behaving like 20 somethings!

My fi was also around that age when we were dating and so many friends told me if he wasn't ready right away, he never would be. And it took a couple of years but now he's completely on board--like a different person (when it comes to marriage and committment at least). However, I think for me, 3 yrs was the do or die point--i didn't want to be one of those people in a 5+year relationship.

anyway, while i do agree that he should be PUSHED more b/c he's not a kid and can't use all those usual excuses, it is possible that he's just not at the same point you are which is why you guys really need to talk about that specifically. Find out or flat out ask if he is ready for the next step (engagement), and if not, is it a question of needing more time or something bigger. And if it's a question of time, how much? Because you've been patient and even though you're young, it doesn't mean you don't want something soon (realize that he may think that you being young may BUY him time.. a girl in her 30's would be much less patient).
good luck & please keep us posted!

 

[Haven]

Thank you thank you thank you for all of your wonderful advice. I wish I had posted about this sooner, because you are so honest and helpful, you are really giving me some good perspective here.

You are all right, I will definitely have to sit down and have a frank discussion with him about this. I almost feel silly for even having this issue--we are adults, for crying out loud, what is it about discussing the M word that makes a grown, educated, independent woman feel so vulnerable? I can barely believe that I''m even hesitating before talking to him, but I am, and thank goodness for my wonderful PSers!

Mustang--I initially had some qualms about dating someone 10+ years older than me because of the older parent issue, however once we got to know each other and I realized how wonderful he is, all of my concerns melted away.

Grape--I hope you''re right that he''s just taking his time, I will let you know on that one.

Bee--That''s wonderful that you two are moving along, congrats!

Janine--It''s funny that you ask where we live, because we live in Chicago where there are loads of single men in their 30s and 40s, and people don''t even think twice about it. I''m sure it''s very similar to NYC. I actually teach high school out in the northern suburbs, and when my students find out I''m 26 and (GASP!) not married, they literally cannot believe it. It seems like average marrying age is very different in a big city versus in the suburbs or smaller towns. It''s funny--in the city, life in general moves quickly even though relationships don''t; in the suburbs life is much slower but relationships seem to progress at a faster rate!

I also refuse to be in a 5+ year relationship with no formal commitment, so this three year mark is pretty much the point of no return.

Anyway, I will let you ladies know how our disucssion turns out. I have a feeling he is just taking his time, or is it that I''m hoping he''s just taking his time? But we do move pretty slowly in general--we didn''t drop the L bomb until a year into our relationship, and that was just fine with me. Isn''t it funny how you can just get to a point and say "Okay, I''m ready, ON WITH THE COMMITMENT!"?

Thanks again, ladies, and keep the advice coming--I''m going to need some serious moral support going into this. I am rarely at a loss for words (can you tell?!) but these things tend to leave me blabbering.

THANK YOU!

 

[KimberlyH]

Date: 6/4/2007 9:27:47 PM
Author: monarch64

Date: 6/4/2007 7:00:04 PM
Author: anchor31
I''m a very forward kind of person. If I want something or want to know something, I ask. You want to get married in summer 2008 and you want to have a year-long engagement... So tell him. You''ve discussed everything and nothing apparent should be holding him back... So what is he waiting for? If he stalls, you have your answer.

Good luck!

I couldn''t have said it better.

Thritto. I hope your talk results in forward movement!

~K

 

[firebirdgold]

Do you feel like your relationship has changed and grown over the past year? Are there other signs of commitment? (example: my then-bf suggested we get a family plan with our cellphones) Do you feel like the term ''boyfriend'' no longer really describes your relationship with him? Do you plan things as a unit naturally? Do you have stuff at each other''s houses? Do you have keys to each other''s places?

If you can''t answer yes to most of those questions... then you shouldn''t bother waiting around for him.

 

[Haven]

Indie--I do feel like our relationship has grown over the past year. As for signs of commitment, they seem to be everywhere except on my left ring finger, so to speak. We switched to a cell phone family plan last summer, he takes care of my pets as if they are his own, we certainly plan things as a unit, I''ve had keys to his place and a set of clothing there for a very long time, and vice versa. In fact, I am on a first-name basis with every single employee in his building--the doormen don''t even bother calling up to see if I can come in because it is just a given at this point. This being said, it almost feels silly for me to even question his intentions, but I do BECAUSE everything else has fallen into place, so why should he hesitate to commit?

We basically function as a unit in every aspect except our living situations. We don''t live together because I refuse to do so until we are married. We would never make a large purchase without the other''s input and support, we''ve purchased small things together (e.g. our video camera), we are close with each others'' families, et cetera.

This is why I''m so frustrated--what is with the hesitation?

Okay, now I''ve really done enough procrastinating for one day--I MUST write this paper for grad school tonight!

Again, thank you ladies, I really do appreciate it.

 

[Becky P]

Wow! If I wasn''t the one reading this, I would swear your story was my story. I asked the same questions about 9 months ago. I think you''re the only one who can tell when you''ve waited too long. Everyone I know was telling me to walk away, and I just knew I had to give it a real shot before walking away from the man I love. I''m still not engaged yet, but it''s getting close! I''d say, LOTS of conversation is in order here. I do recommend the book Why Men Marry Some Women and Not Others (as suggested by a previous poster.) A lot of times guys just don''t get it. One of my favorite quotes from a book (can''t remember which one) is that hints need to be delivered with the subtletly of a sledgehammer in order for guys to understand. For example, instead of saying, "I see us married someday", we should say "I see us getting married next summer"... stuff like that. Until he realizes that this is VERY important and your happiness depends on it, then there''s really no reason for him to change anything. Men think, things are good, why change them. So, let him know that it''s time for a change! Good luck and keep us posted!!!

 

[Haven]

Becky--it is comforting to know we''re not alone in our frustration, isn''t it? I am definitely going to put the advice in that book to use, and BF is coming over tonight so perhaps we''ll have our talk . . . Thank you for sharing your story, I know how hard it is to stay with someone when outsiders are telling you to leave him, that''s why I love PS so much--nobody''s saying "just leave him, already!" they''re actually giving EXCELLENT, practical advice.


I''ll let you girls know as soon as I make some progress!

 

[Sassee]

I hear you! We are coming up to 5 years together in August, and that was beginning to be "make or break time" for me. Maybe it was wrong of me to place such importance on what is effectively just a number, but psychologically, the concept of having been together for 1/2 a DECADE and still no real commitment, was starting to freak me out.

My boy is 33 (I am 26) and most of his friends were married in their 20s. Its certainly not a reason to commit to marriage ("because my friends are doing it") and I applaud him for being cautious and not rushing in.

BUT, at the same time I was like "what the hell are you waiting for?". We have a fantastic relationship (despite so many curve balls thrown our way - his father dying, my finishing university, the fact that his life/business is based over an hour away from me and my city job, moving in together (its a part time thing!!) just to name a few!!)

He knows that I want to have a child before I am 30. We have discussed this stuff so much and we were always on the same page (or so I thought!), so I assumed that it was just a "matter of time". In fact, I''ve probably been wanting it to seriously happen for about 18 months...

I went through so many disappointing birthdays, Christmases, anniversaries waiting, waiting and... NOTHING!

So, I put it all on the line and said "I love you, but if you haven''t worked out after 4 1/2 years, that I am the only girl for you, then I am afraid I''ve made a big mistake". That was a really hard conversation to have, but I really needed to force the issue. He opened up and explained that because I was younger he always just had this whole concept of having "years" up his sleeve, and how it terrified him how quickly time has slipped by. I don''t think he was making a conscious decision to avoid engagements or marriage, he was just enjoying being a couple and wasn''t as "hung up" on these things as I was.

Once he understood where my feelings were, he was a lot better at communicating his thoughts. We ended up discussing weddings, engagement rings, the works. And then after a few months of talking about rings and my showing him some pictures on the net, we made a plan to go and see some jewellers and stones.

So, now the ring is on order and I am waiting, waiting, waiting

My message is: HOLD ON, be strong, but also be honest, direct and frank (just like a guy would be). We think we are being a lot more honest, direct and frank than we really are(!!), but in actual fact, we are too vague, too obtuse, and guys just do NOT get the subtle hints!! Sometimes it just pays to put it all out there. Not so much an ultimatim but a "lets have an adult conversation here". If you can''t do that, then you need to question the very integrity of the relationship.

Good luck - my thoughts are with you!

 

[Haven]

UPDATE!

So I took all of your advice and sat him down for a talk last night. I basically put Pandora''s words ("Honey I love you and love being with you, but I also want to get married and have children and you need to let me know if you are not ready to move forward on this, because I will need time to find someone else if you''re not and I''m not getting any younger.") into my own and let it fly.

He was SHOCKED that I even had one doubt in my mind whether he wanted to marry me, and whether he was ready to move on. I, of course, reminded him that we are still not engaged, to which he replied "Honey, you want it to be a surprise, don''t you? I can''t surprise you if I tell you all the details about everything I''m planning."

So maybe I was overreacting, but just to be sure, I continued and reminded him about my schedule and how we''d have to wait until summer 2009 if we don''t get engaged this summer. His response: I know that, of course I know that. Honey, don''t over-analyze our relationship like a Faulkner novel; we are going to get married and buy a home together and have children and be old and wrinkly together. I have it under control." (I''m an English teacher so he thinks my tendency to over-analyze is a direct result of all those years I spent studying literature in undergrad and grad school. He''s probably right.)

He was a little bit hurt that I even questioned his intentions, and he turned it around on me and asked me how I could think that he wanted anything other than to be with me and marry me and yadda yadda yadda.

So it was a very good conversation. I don''t know why I was so worried, because I never have any issues bringing anything else up, and we always discuss things calmly and I always leave the conversation feeling better.

Okay, so now I feel silly for worrying at all.

THANK YOU FOR ALL OF YOUR ADVICE! I''ll let you know if anything else progresses.

 

[janinegirly]

that''s great and sounds like he''s definitely working on it!

you weren''t silly to worry about it at all..you''re not a mind reader and for every one of you, there are 10 women in the same boat with bf''s who were buying their time and not sure. he shouldn''t be insulted either, he should understand you are a catch and a strong woman who needs to look out for herself. No one should be living their life based on perceived assumptions, and it''s sadly something many women in relationships do. Nothing is worse than seeing someone have conversations with themselves and friends and hang around for years OR hear glossed over answers and read into them (there are many examples of that on this site alone). I think it was clear you weren''t at that stage yet which is why no one really said get rid of him, we more said, TALK to him, and it worked out great. Now if you talked to him and he hedged or said give me a couple years..then it would have been a different story!

looking forward to an engagement story soon!

 

[Independent Gal]

Wonderful news! I agree with Janine that it was worth having the talk. Put you mind at rest, didn''t it? And isn''t peace of mind one of the most important things in life?

Sounds like you''ve got a great guy.

Can''t wait for the proposal story!

 

[anchor31]

GO GIRL! This is wonderful. I''m glad you two talked, don''t you just feel so much better?

 

[Haven]

You guys are the best.

YES, I feel so much better, and I learned an important lesson--if I ever need some help getting the courage to say something I should be saying, log onto PS!

Thanks again, everyone!