Help Please! Diamond Advice

[Garac897]

Hi All!!

I am new to this site and I just purchased an engagement ring from a local family jewelry business in CT
I am looking for some help as to confirm if this was a good purchase! I spent sometime reading about the different reporting laboratories (Now I am concerned as I was unaware of this, however I did spend several hours picking out the diamond and it indeed looked beautiful)

Please see the specs below, this is a IGI Diamond

DESCRIPTION	NATURAL DIAMOND
SHAPE AND CUT	ROUND BRILLIANT
CARAT WEIGHT	1.57 Carat
COLOR GRADE	E
CLARITY GRADE	VS 2
CUT GRADE	EXCELLENT
POLISH	EXCELLENT
SYMMETRY	EXCELLENT
Measurements	7.31 - 7.37 x 4.64 mm
Table Size	57.5%
Crown Height	15.5% - 36.3°
Pavilion Depth	43% - 40.8°

I was just online browsing Blue Nile and James Allen and they seem to be comparable in price, but not sure if I over paid? Cost was $16,500

Thank you!!

 

[Kaycee2018]

I'll let the experts chime in, but in general diamonds graded by IGI sell for less than those graded by GIA or AGS. So for a more accurate comparison, be sure you are comparing with other IGI graded diamonds.

 

[Garac897]

Thank you, that is what I have been reading. The diamonds i was comparing on JA where GIA. They do not have anything with same specs with IGI

I'll let the experts chime in, but in general diamonds graded by IGI sell for less than those graded by GIA or AGS. So for a more accurate comparison, be sure you are comparing with other IGI graded diamonds.

 

[OoohShiny]

Looking at the Search tool at the top of the forum, there are 11 GIA XXX diamonds over 1.55ct in weight and with E VS2 grading, which are within parameters usually recommended on PS (including 60/60 style stones) and with Excellent HCA scores (so angles that work well together):

Diamond Search Results | Real-time Information on 1,000,000+ Diamonds | PriceScope

PriceScope's Diamond Search is the best place to find the best diamond prices. Search and compare over a million natural, lab and fancy color diamonds.

www.pricescope.com

Prices are starting from $12,500 - in this case for a 1.7ct stone with Medium Fluorescence, which can lower pricing for various reasons; mostly market trends and now-historic prejudice, despite negative impacts being uncommon and only ever seen in Strong and Very Strong fluor stones.


If we expand the search parameters to include D-G colour and IF-SI1 clarity, there are about 238 AGS000 and GIA XXX stones, with sizes up to 2.05 within a budget of $16,500:

Diamond Search Results | Real-time Information on 1,000,000+ Diamonds | PriceScope

PriceScope's Diamond Search is the best place to find the best diamond prices. Search and compare over a million natural, lab and fancy color diamonds.

www.pricescope.com

 

[headlight]

You will always pay more at a store, but many like to support their local businesses and have them as their local jeweler for repairs and other purchases. So I understand your draw to the local family jeweler, especially if you or your family or in-laws have a relationship with this jeweler. Is this stone exchangeable? If so, I think everyone here would feel better if you only focussed on GIA or AGS stones. Unless this jeweler is an AGS store, they might not have AGS stones, but you should get GIA for sure if you can. Love the color and clarity (if that is actually what it is... some of the not as respected labs are a bit too generous on grading... you can be more certain with a GIA or AGS). Have you run this through the HCA? I'm curious about the crown angle paired with the pavilion angle. Do you know the girdle thickness or total depth?

 

[Garac897]

You will always pay more at a store, but many like to support their local businesses and have them as their local jeweler for repairs and other purchases. So I understand your draw to the local family jeweler, especially if you or your family or in-laws have a relationship with this jeweler. Is this stone exchangeable? If so, I think everyone here would feel better if you only focussed on GIA or AGS stones. Unless this jeweler is an AGS store, they might not have AGS stones, but you should get GIA for sure if you can. Love the color and clarity (if that is actually what it is... some of the not as respected labs are a bit too generous on grading... you can be more certain with a GIA or AGS). Have you run this through the HCA? I'm curious about the crown angle paired with the pavilion angle. Do you know the girdle thickness or total depth?

Thank you for the reply. To be honest I am not tied to the local jeweler at all, however I just hope I didn’t pull the trigger too quick (I did not know about these different labs until searching through internet). I can get full refund within 30 days as long as it’s new (assuming not worn). What is the HCA?

Answering your question about crown angle/pavilion and girdle please see below:

Table Size	57.5%
Crown Height	15.5% - 36.3°
Pavilion Depth	43% - 40.8°
Girdle Thickness	SLIGHTLY THICK (FACETED)

 

[headlight]

Your report doesn't give girdle thickness or total depth so we don't have the full picture. Can you return it if you don't like it, or at lease exchange? However, with that said, you said you spent a long time and you think it is beautiful so that is really the most important part. You aren't going to carry your report around with you. Do you have a photo of the diamond we could see?

 

[Garac897]

Your report doesn't give girdle thickness or total depth so we don't have the full picture. Can you return it if you don't like it, or at lease exchange? However, with that said, you said you spent a long time and you think it is beautiful so that is really the most important part. You aren't going to carry your report around with you. Do you have a photo of the diamond we could see?

Understood, that is all I have unfortunately. I do not have the diamond as it’s being put in it’s setting. I believe I can exchange it as he said if she ever wants to get a bigger stone they will take it back. For returns within 30 days for full refund. Your right, but I just wanted to ask the community. I spent several hours looking at several diamonds in direct light, out of light and under magnifying glass before coming to this decision.

 

[headlight]

How about you give the jeweler a call and say that you know it is in process, but you are really excited and wanted to see if they can take a couple photos of the stone and email/text over to you "to show your parents/brother/best friend/her sister, etc." you get my point or some random thing like that and if you can get it post the photos here. It does sound like you did your homework in a number of respects. We are just always skeptical of stones that have reports from less-respected labs because if they were the better stones, they would have reports from those labs. But see if you can get some quick photos.

 

[Dancing Fire]

IMO, GIA or AGS graded stone is the only way to go.

 

[headlight]

IMO, GIA or AGS graded stone is the only way to go.

I definitely agree... and I think HRD, Antwerp, is also respected in Europe. They had some traction here in the U.S. a number of years ago. But that would be so random in a U.S. jewelry store (although, with that said, my local family jeweler does an annual Antwerp buying trip so he may have stones graded by HRD, yet he is an AGS store so who knows...). I think we can all agree to stay away from EGL!

 

[lovedogs]

I wouldn't buy an IGI graded stone when there are so many GIA and AGS stones available. And yes, I believe you paid more than you would if buying online from a trusted vendor. THe other issue is that we don't know the depth, which changes things. I think there are some people here who can estimate depth based on diameter, table, etc. Calling @flyingpig @Karl_K @sledge to see if they have any ways of helping to figure out depth.

 

[headlight]

I wouldn't buy an IGI graded stone when there are so many GIA and AGS stones available. And yes, I believe you paid more than you would if buying online from a trusted vendor. THe other issue is that we don't know the depth, which changes things. I think there are some people here who can estimate depth based on diameter, table, etc. Calling @flyingpig @Karl_K @sledge to see if they have any ways of helping to figure out depth.

We need girdle thickness but OP does not have this info.

 

[headlight]

You can also use this formula: Divide depth in mm by average girdle diameter and multiply by 100.

 

[headlight]

This stone in question is 7.31 - 7.37 x 4.64 mm.
AGD (avg girdle diameter) would be 7.31 + 7.37 divided by 2 = 7.34
Total depth % = 4.64 divided by 7.34 x 100 = 63.21525
Round to nearest tenth of a percent (0.1%) = 63.2%
NOTE (as per GIA Grading Lab manual): Total depth percentage calculated using diameter and depth measurements rounded to the hundredths place might differ from the total depth on a GIA Report by 0.1% or 0.2%. The optical measuring devices used by the laboratory deliver diameter and depth measurements to the thousandths place, and those figures - without being rounded - are used to calculate total depth percentage.
So I'm just going to assume that the total depth is 63%.

 

[headlight]

Based on what I spelled out above, the "quick" way is via the way I mentioned previously, requesting girdle thickness, as a quick calculation is crown height + pavilion depth + girdle thickness.
OP does not have girdle thickness percentage.
But, based on the calculation above, and given the 15.5% crown height and 43% pavilion depth that equals 58.5%. The report described the girdle as "thick". A medium to thick girdle is often 4%. So if it was described as "thick", it is reasonable to assume the girdle thickness percentage is 4.5%.
So take 4.5% + 15.5% + 43% = 63%. Look at my calculations in my post above.

 

[headlight]

So here is where the rubber meets the road of GIA vs PS lol! As many of you know (and many of you disagree with), a 63% total depth still qualifies for Excellent (dependent on where other grading parameters fall within the other proportion grades). My avatar diamond has a rounded 63% (David Atlas told me it is 62.8-something-something lol!), and I don't think it's a disastrous diamond, but that's a conversation for another thread (of which we've had many times!). Also, GIA allows a girdle thickness of up to 4.5% to still qualify as Excellent (again, dependent on how the other proportions fall within their grading parameters).

 

[headlight]

Per GIA tables for Table Percentage, Crown Angle, and Pavilion Angle, its angles fall right on the border between Excellent and Very Good.
So clearly this stone, as per GIA parameters which are more "forgiving" than AGS, is really pushing it on the border between Excellent and Very Good. With that said, we know that there are different personalities of stones and we all have different impressions of what appeals to each of us visually. So if OP found it to be a stone attractive to them, that is their preference. It doesn't mean it is a bad stone. I would like to know color and clarity. I personally feel that sometimes you need to look at the complete package so maybe the color and clarity are very high and those are high on the priority list for many so that can play into the decision. We really need more info to give a more well-rounded eval, insight, and opinion.

 

[headlight]

This stone is a great example of what not to look for:
In addition to the info I spelled out above, you can also look for weight ratio and overweight percentage. It's a no-brainer based on the depth and girdle thickness that one has a clue it is "thick" or "heavy".
For this particular diamond OP has presented, when calculating the overweight percentage, it comes in at 9%. As per GIA Cut Grade, anything 9% and over would have a highest possible cut grade of Very Good. So, even though the other 2 parameters I calculated above (total depth and girdle thickness) which both just squeaked in as qualifiers for Excellent Cut Grades, the fact that the Overweight Percentage rates as a Very Good, the best cut grade this stone can receive by GIA is a Very Good.
WHICH GOES BACK to my earlier post that if a stone could get an Excellent Cut Grade from GIA, it WOULD'VE been submitted to GIA, as opposed to a 2nd (3rd?) tier gem lab.
With all of this spelled out, while I think someone should get what appeals to them, it might be in OP's interest to look at some stones elsewhere so there is a better basis of comparison. If that jeweler only has stones of similar caliber, that is all OP saw. So OP probably picked the best of the lot... of a lot that is probably not the best... clearly not even as good as some of the "not as great" GIA triple x stones.

 

[sledge]

I wouldn't buy an IGI graded stone when there are so many GIA and AGS stones available. And yes, I believe you paid more than you would if buying online from a trusted vendor. THe other issue is that we don't know the depth, which changes things. I think there are some people here who can estimate depth based on diameter, table, etc. Calling @flyingpig @Karl_K @sledge to see if they have any ways of helping to figure out depth.

Easy peasy.

• Depth / Width = Depth %
• 4.64mm / [ (7.31mm + 7.37mm) / 2] = 63.22%

With these proportions I'd fully expect leakage from the stone. The crown/pavilion angle doesn't play nicely together and as already pointed out 63% depth is a no-no. At least on MRB's.

Buy an ASET or idealscope and test the stone once it comes in. You will see what I'm talking about. This stone will have leakage.

I might add the whole point of a lab report is to provide warm fuzzies that what you are spending your money on is exactly what it's supposed to be. IGI is not consistent. Who knows if the stone is really an E VS2.

What I do know is IGI stones trade for less dollars. And stones that can't get favorable GIA grades gets sent to alternate labs in an attempt to fluff up their appearance/value.

It's called putting lipstick on a pig. Or back in my drinking & partying days, beer goggles, lol. Either way, it produces less than desirable end results.

 

[headlight]

@sledge OP should probably not bother with getting an ASET scope for this one (sadly). I just hope he can get his money back and start over via a recommendation made by someone here.

(As @sledge knows) The example of OP's stone at 63(+?)% and my stone's 63(-?)% does not mean they equate on overweight percentage, just as an FYI. My stone is overweight by 5%. As long as the stone is less than 9% it still qualifies for EX (as per GIA, consider the source...). So my overweight percentage (well, not MY personal overweight percentage lol!) is well below the cutoff (hopefully my personal overweight percentage follow suit ha ha!).

Thanks, everyone, for "indulging me" in honing my Diamond Grading Lab skills! I was never a "math" person, but I loved this part of the course!

 

[sledge]

Agree an ASET scope may be a waste on this stone. But what I fear is the return will be limited to this particular store/jeweler and not a true cash back deal so the OP can shop elsewhere. If that's correct, the scope would be useful in analyzing alternate stones as well.

For grins plugged in proportions to my cut calculator (based on 2008 AGS proportions charts).

It's a very borderline stone. However, these charts don't account for thickness/depth. As already stated, at 63%+ it would tip to the worst side.

Also, keep in mind the chart is based on typical GIA increments (nearest 1% of table, nearest 0.5 degree for crown, etc).

 

[headlight]

I see your point re: purchasing an ASET scope to take shopping. Although, I have to tell you, and I guess I'm a total moron but I can't figure out how to use it! My stone looks HORRIBLE through the scope and I know it isn't that bad. It's not perfect but not that bad. And I've seen my stone both loose and mounted at the jeweler's with their professional ASET viewer which looks a whole lot better than what I came up with at home. So I guess my point is if OP (or anyone else) doesn't know how to use it...?? I remembered my stone looking one way loose, and then I saw what I saw with the scope I bought after stone mounted, and then went back to jeweler to view on theirs. So I have basis of comparison. Apparently it's just me because others don't have this issue!
Anyhow, yes, as you said and as spelled out when I did all the calculations, a stone on the border. But I've heard here that there are some VG stones that are pretty???????

 

[yssie]

Which IGI?


The numbers don't say "run". PS zeitgeist and tools that don't consider that you've seen the stone with your own two eyes should never, ever take priority over what your own two eyes say, assuming you did some comparing with other stones in-store when you made your purchase.

Could be a perfectly lovely stone.

5.40-Carat Round Cut Diamond | Blue Nile

www.bluenile.com

... Could be dreadful.

Got pictures?

 

[Garac897]

Which IGI?


The numbers don't say "run". PS zeitgeist and tools that don't consider that you've seen the stone with your own two eyes should never, ever take priority over what your own two eyes say, assuming you did some comparing with other stones in-store when you made your purchase.

Could be a perfectly lovely stone.

5.40-Carat Round Cut Diamond | Blue Nile

www.bluenile.com

... Could be dreadful.

Got pictures?

Thank you all for the input. As mentioned, this is all new to me as this is my first time. I did however compare numerous stones within the span of several hours and this one looked the best. I can also confirm on the report that this diamond was graded at IGI ANTWERP, not sure if that matters but I saw it was mentioned.

I do not have any pictures as the it is being set but I did request some. I will post here once if I get them.

 

[Garac897]

Quick Update-

I went back and explained my concerns and he is going to see if they can refund me back my money. He told me that he will check because the ring was already sized up ( I call BS0) either way on the back of the receipt it does not say that.

 

[Garac897]

Quick Update-

I went back and explained my concerns and he is going to see if they can refund me back my money. He told me that he will check because the ring was already sized up ( I call BS0) either way on the back of the receipt it does not say that.

This is the Return policy below, they should be able to refund me 100%. I am hoping they do not try and pull a fast one on me.


Exchanges, Returns & Cancellations:
Stock merchandise may be exchanged within 60 days of delivery if never worn and in new condition. The original sales slip and all related certificated, grading reports and warrantees must accompany returns or exchanges.

Exceptions:

1. Watches may be returned only within 7 days if never worn and in new condition, with all links, warranty forms and packaging intact
2. Merchandise sold ‘as is’ or as ‘final sale’, special orders and/or personalized items may not be returned. Payments will be forfeited
3. Online returns cannot be returned in-store.

Refunds:
Refunds are allowed on items returned in new condition within 30 days and will be made by the original method of payment, except cash refunds over $25 will be by check and mailed within 10 days. Refunds for payment by check will be mailed after the check clears the bank

 

[headlight]

Quick Update-

I went back and explained my concerns and he is going to see if they can refund me back my money. He told me that he will check because the ring was already sized up ( I call BS0) either way on the back of the receipt it does not say that.

How much was the mounting? If they refund you on the diamond but not on the mounting, would you be interested in still using that mounting but get the stone elsewhere? When you are shopping for stones, you can just make sure that the measurements of the stone will fit in your mounting. You will need to find out what the max and min parameters are that the mounting can hold. If you have a picture of the mounting we can see if it can have a different head put on, as well.

 

[headlight]

Also, if you want to give it another chance with them, ask them if they would bring in GIA stones for you. If they will, you can give them the parameters you are looking for (people here will tell you exactly what to ask for). This is another way to work it if they won't refund you on the mounting and you don't want to just take it with you.

 

[Garac897]

How much was the mounting? If they refund you on the diamond but not on the mounting, would you be interested in still using that mounting but get the stone elsewhere? When you are shopping for stones, you can just make sure that the measurements of the stone will fit in your mounting. You will need to find out what the max and min parameters are that the mounting can hold. If you have a picture of the mounting we can see if it can have a different head put on, as well.

The setting was $800. At this point after speaking with you all i would prefer a refund. Doing some research on comparable GIA stones on JA, this jeweler is over charging me alot for an IGI. I have not even picked up the ring or have the told me it was done.