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Help on Potential Loose Emerald Purchase

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Pumpsie

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 19, 2003
Messages
16
I''m new around here, so hello everyone...I''m considering the purchase of the following diamond, which is being offered by a local jeweler. I felt comfortable with pursuing it at first, but the girdle stats are really bothering me...should I be overly concerned? The diamond stats follow:

Report: GIA (2002)
Cut: Emerald
Measurements: 8.28 x 6.24 x 4.33mm (1.33 length to width ratio)
Weight: 2.03 carat
Depth: 69.4%
Table: 68%
Girdle: Extremely thin to thick
Culet: none
Polish: VG
Symmetry: VG
Clarity: IF
Color: F
Fluorescene: None
Cash Price: $16,935

The jewelry store gives this stone its highest possible cut rating (I know that the language describing the best possible cut varies). I asked for crown height % and a percentage of variance on the girdle, but the reply was "GIA doesn''t provide this information." What else should I ask? Is this stone a good buy? Help? Oldminer? Leonid? Anyone? Thanks in advance...
 

Giangi

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jan 23, 2003
Messages
2,530
The girdle thickness would worry me a bit. Try to look at the stone under a microscope to find out where the girdle is ext thin... Maybe it's just a very small part...
Your jeweler should be able to get a Sarin report for about 10$... It's quite easy to get one... If you're seriously interested in this diamond, he should be able to provide you this service...
 

Giangi

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jan 23, 2003
Messages
2,530
Ooooooooooops!!!! Sorry, double post!!!!
 

Pumpsie

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 19, 2003
Messages
16
Thanks for the message. The jeweler's response was the following:

"The main factor with girdle is that you have something in the mid range as an average. The girdle rating on this particular stone means it is Ext Thin on just a small portion, and only Thick on a small portion. The vast majority is in the middle of this, which
is where you want to be. In most cases, if the depth percentage is correct,
the girdle will take care of itself."

Thoughts? Sounds too general to me. The stone does have excellent sparkle and brilliance, however.

Thanks...
 

timbo

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 20, 2003
Messages
28
Hi JP -

Doing alittle research myself on getting an Emerald cut for my girl.

This site is awesome and I have done alot of looking around at this site. I don't think your cut is considered "Ideal" or "premium"

Take a look at Class 1a Ideal Cuts for emeralds

TABLE = 61% - 63.5%
DEPTH = 60%-65%

Good luck

tb
 

Pumpsie

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 19, 2003
Messages
16
Timbo: yeah...this site is amazing. Some of the people who post here pack some serious knowledge.

Thanks for the post and let me know how your search goes...sounds like we're looking for the same thing. My girl's NUTS about emerald cuts...I'm with you...I don't think my stone is anything close to "extra premium cut," which is what my jeweler is calling it. Everything looked OK to me until we got to the girdle, but I'm trying to figure out exactly how much emphasis I should put on that characteristic of the stone...
 

Richard Sherwood

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Sep 25, 2002
Messages
4,924
Hiya Pump. I couldn't get the reply button to work on my PM system, so I'll make my comments here.

Sounds like a pretty stone. It's hard to form a complete mental picture without the crown height and pavilion depth, but my gut instinct is that the stone would probably fall in the AGA Cut Class 3A category.

3A is a "US domestic cut" which I would describe as a "good" cut. Not "very good" or "premium/ideal", but then again not a "fair" or "poor" cut. It's much more difficult to find Class 1 and 2 emerald cuts than Class 1-2 rounds. Probably the majority of emerald cuts fall in the Class 3 and 4 categories.

That said, there's no reason a Class 3A can't be gorgeous. My instincts are that this is probably a very bright and lively emerald cut.

The girdle thickness is slightly troubling, but not the end of the world. That fact that it has very good symmetry makes me think that the cutter knew what he was doing, and probably contained the extreme thinness to just a small portion of the girdle, probably to remedy some logistical cutting challenge he was wrestling with. This is something that you're going to have to get a second opinion on from a professional. One quick look and he can answer your question.

The table size, depth and length-to-width are not bad for an emerald cut. Very attractive measurements. It's very common to find 70%+ tables and girdles on emerald cuts, so under that 70% breakpoint is always a good start.

The price is VERY attractive as well. Sounds like the dealer is just making lunch money on you. Burger King at that.

Emerald cuts are classy, aren't they? With their understated elegance, they are often the stone of choice of diamond connoisseurs.

Be sure and make the sale contingent upon the stone "checking out" to your satisfaction with an independent appraiser. It's a reasonable request, which most dealers will go along with.
 

timbo

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 20, 2003
Messages
28
Richard -

Thanks for the info and I am sure Pumpsie is thankful. I am also looking to get my girl an emerald.

Do you think I can get a 1.1-1.2 carat "Ideal" Emerald cut for 6500-7000? Thanks. I may be putting too much emphasis on "Ideal" but I think I want to go smaller/better quality.

tim
 

Giangi

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jan 23, 2003
Messages
2,530
Your eyes are the best judge when it comes to fancy shapes... If you like how the diamond, then it might be the right one. If the girdle is ext thin only in a little part (like in a corner), it's not a big problem. Even if you don't have any additional info like crown and pavilion, the stone seems to be very nicely cut. The price is excellent for a stone of such high quality!
 

Mara

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Oct 30, 2002
Messages
31,003
Hi P--Unfortunately I can't be of too much help with the Emerald cut stones as my experience is more with rounds...but Richard's advise and the others as well sounds very sound. I would try to get a Sarin on this stone to get more information and to confirm the girdle measurements, but if this stone falls into a 3A category, be sure you are not 'paying' for the 'Premium' cut grade when it does not measure up.

Regardless of what you do, you may want to get an IdealScope to see what sort of light return this stone posesses. I don't know how useful the IS is on something like a step-cut stone as the light return is not the same as a round diamond in the least (e.g. think see-through clear glass vs. light bouncing facets), but you may be able to compare a few emeralds side by side in order to get an idea of which one is returning maximum light.

Emeralds are gorgeous...especially if you are considering IF. The color and clarity on this stone are superb!

Good luck!
 

Richard Sherwood

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Sep 25, 2002
Messages
4,924
-----------
It's very common to find 70%+ tables and girdles on emerald cuts
-----------

I meant to say "tables and depths"...

-----------
I don't know how useful the IS is on something like a step-cut stone as the light
return is not the same as a round diamond in the least (e.g. think see-through clear
glass vs. light bouncing facets), but you may be able to compare a few emeralds side
by side in order to get an idea of which one is returning maximum light.
-----------

Yeah, the idealscope is great for picking out the best of the crop, Mara. It works the same for emerald cuts as it does for rounds, showing the amount of light return, etc. The difference is that you need to get used to limits of brilliance vs light leakage in an emerald cut as opposed to a round. If you go at it thinking you'll find an emerald cut with the performance of a round you'll be disappointed.

Just for fun I'll post an image for an emerald cut with the rough proportions shown above. It won't be accurate, because we don't have all the crown and pavilion angles, but it illustrates the typical difference in light return between emerald cuts and rounds.

2.03 EC.jpg
 

Richard Sherwood

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Sep 25, 2002
Messages
4,924
-----------
Do you think I can get a 1.1-1.2 carat "Ideal" Emerald cut for 6500-7000? Thanks. I
may be putting too much emphasis on "Ideal" but I think I want to go smaller/better
quality.
-----------

Theoretically you should be able to, Timbo. For example, I would think you probably could find a 1.10 to 1.25 ct. G/VS2 in that price range, or a 1.35 to 1.45 H/VS2. That's if you can find one in an ideal cut.
 

Pumpsie

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 19, 2003
Messages
16
I really appreciate the advice--thank you.

Rich: couldn't get my PM to work either...thanks for your message. Perhaps we can work together on this stone...I'll will probably being doing *something* in the next month (maybe two).

I can't believe my good fortune in finding this site. Just absolutely killer.

It sounds as if I shouldn't get too crazy about the girdle stats, which is a relief. My jeweler's response was the following (paraphrased, but this is essentially what was said):

"You are actually the first person that has ever asked for a detailed description of a girdle. I hesitate to do this, as the
person setting may have a different opinion than mine. The Ext Thin is just
on a small portion towards the middle of one of the sides, it is not toward
a corner. The Thick portion is on one of the corners. Keep in mind the stone is 100% refundable for any reason."

Besides the slightly higher depth and table %, the girdle was the only flaw that I could find on this stone. I feel better about it since hearing from all of you. I didn't even want an internally flawless stone or even a color as high as F, but this stone just kind of jumped out at me.

Again...thanks.
 

Richard Sherwood

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Sep 25, 2002
Messages
4,924
-----------
"You are actually the first person that has ever asked for a detailed
description of a girdle. I hesitate to do this, as the person
setting may have a different opinion than mine. The Ext Thin is just
on a small portion towards the middle of one of the sides, it is not
toward a corner. The Thick portion is on one of the corners. Keep in
mind the stone is 100% refundable for any reason."
-----------

This sounds like the kind of guy you want to be working with.

-----------
I can't believe my good fortune in finding this site. Just absolutely
killer.
-----------

This is an amazing site. As far as I know, it is quite distinct in it's personality among diamond & gemstone websites. An amazing help, for both consumers and professionals.

Isn't it cool that you knew the right questions to ask?

-----------
Perhaps we can work together on this stone...
-----------

Sounds like fun.
 

timbo

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 20, 2003
Messages
28
Rich -

Thanks alot for the info/advice on the Emerald.

One more question/minute of your time and I appreciate your help.

Bringing my budget up to the 8000 range for an Emerald. I know this cant really be answered in a post but..

Would you recommend a 1.5 D/E/F and a VS2 (at worse) clarity and give up the "Ideal" cut or go for a 1.2 E/F VS2 "Ideal"

thanks again and Pumpsie - seems like you are getting good advie and you seem to be doing alot of good research..I also love this site and sorry if I am jumping in on your post.

timbo
 

Pumpsie

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 19, 2003
Messages
16
Timbo: No problem, man. I feel for you...going through some of the same stuff, so you're welcome, of course. I'm finding that buying an emerald cut has its own special challenges, so I'm interested in your experiences.

Diamond buying, to me at least, is all about the classic quality-quantity debate. Some people can max out both, but the rest of us have to make compromises somewhere. WHERE to compromise is the whole thing, you know? It's such a major purchase (both in terms of $$$ and in terms of what it symbolizes) that there's some stress involved, at least for me.

However, I think this website and good research can put us on the right track...there's at least some comfort in that.
 

timbo

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 20, 2003
Messages
28
Pumpsie -

I agree with you 100%....Will keep you posted..please do the same..

I am usually not so crazy about researching things but this is a big/important purchase.

I am pretty convinced if you do your homework you can get a better/bigger stone than if you go to a deal blind.

I am fighting the Big vs Quality. I always said I prefer a 1.2/1.3 D/E/F with at least a VS1 versus something bigger with a H/I, etc...That has to be what alot of people struggle with. Anyways....good luck again.

Timbo
 

trichrome

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Dec 9, 2002
Messages
397
Keep in mind one last thing. As you know emeralds are very different
than rounds.... Since the table is usually large and rectangular,
some VS2 inclusions can sometimes be seen with the unaided eye,
even more if the stone is large (2 carats for example).
Same thing for the color : you'll notice more easily the yellow
in a big I emerald than in an I round.

Trichrome.
 

Richard Sherwood

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Sep 25, 2002
Messages
4,924
-----------
Would you recommend a 1.5 D/E/F and a VS2 (at
worse) clarity and give up the "Ideal" cut or go
for a 1.2 E/F VS2 "Ideal"
-----------

Timbo, the three things you notice right off-the-bat when viewing a diamond casually is size, color and cut (not necessarily in that order). So in my mind, as long as it's eyeclean, clarity takes a back seat. VS2 will probably do you fine in most instances, but bear Trichrome's caution in mind when viewing the stones.

Myself, I prefer cut above size and color. I tend to gravitate towards finely made stones.

In an emerald cut it's tough to find "ideal" makes, though. There's not that many around, because the cutter is usually working with odd shaped rough, and the rough usually ends up determining the proportions. If I was looking for an emerald cut, I don't know that I would hold myself to such a tight requirement as "ideal". I have seen many, many emerald cuts which don't score "ideal" by the numbers but look absolutely fantastic.

Fat lotta help I am, right?
 

timbo

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 20, 2003
Messages
28
Richard -

Thanks alot...you have been helpful and I do truly appreciate your insight/help. That is great that you are able to help so many of us and give us ideas...Yeah I hear ya...maybe I am too caught up in this whole "ideal" thing....

I will take my budget and try to get the overall best one I can find...My only problem is I dont know if I can truly tell the difference between a really nice emerald and an awesome one. Will let you know how I do.

thanks again

tim
 
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