Help me decide between two diamonds please!!!!

[missyjas]

I really need help choosing between two diamonds. My original diamond was cracked and I have been working with a replacement service via my insurance company to find me a new stone. My local jeweler also has a stone for me and I can't decide. Here are the basics:

1. 2.87 ct. round, VS1, H color, ideal cut, faceted girdle.

2. 2.51 ct. round, IF, H color, very good cut.

My local jeweler claims that the difference in clarity alone makes the 2.51 ring worth $10K more than the other ring. I am just not sure. The larger ring has a lower, but still great clarity and is an ideal cut. Any advice would be GREATLY appreciated!

 

[Gypsy]

Please post which lab graded the diamonds. And the lab report. As well as the table and depth percentages and the crown and pavilion angles.

Also don't bother posting information on the Very Good one. It won't be good enough.

Just the one you are saying is "ideal" cut.

 

[missyjas]

Thank you for your quick response. So, it seems already it is a no-brainer since one is an ideal cut and one is very good? Despite the difference in clarity?

Bad copy...let me know if you can read it.

 

[Gypsy]

Well, that's easy.

Both are rejected.
The very good because very good pretty much blows.
And the "ideal" because it is EGL.

Please read this (yes, all of it): [URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/egl-certification-are-any-of-them-ok.142863/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/egl-certification-are-any-of-them-ok.142863/[/URL]

And stick to GIA or AGS stones only.

And start working with a different jeweler as that one doesn't have your best interests at heart. He is out only for himself.

 

[Gypsy]

The entire purpose of faceting a diamond is to reflect light.
How well or how poorly a diamond does this determines how beautiful it is.
How well a diamond performs is determined by the angles and cutting. This is why we say cut is king.
No other factor: not color, not clarity has as much of an impact on the appearance of a diamond as its cut. An ideal H will out white a poorly cut F. And GIA Ex is not enough. And do not consider anything except GIA Ex or AGS 0 or 1 stones. EGL is a bad value and should not even be considered.
So how to we ensure that we have the right angles and cutting to get the light performance we want?
https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/diamond-cut
Well one method is to start with a GIA Ex get the angles and table and depth from the certificate (you can just get the lab report number and look up the angles on the GIA website with report check), and then apply the HCA to it. YOU DO NOT USE HCA for AGS0 stones.
https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/holloway-cut-advisor
The HCA is a rejection tool. Not a selection tool. It uses 4 data points to make a rudimentary call on how the diamond may perform.
If the diamond passes then you know that you are in the right zone in terms of angles for light performance. 2 and under is a pass. Under 2.5-2.1 is a maybe. 2.6 and over is a no. No score under 2 is better than any other.
Is that enough? Not really.
So what you need is a way to check actual light performance of your actual stone.
That's what an idealscope image does. https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/firescope-idealscope
It shows you how and wear your diamond is reflecting light, how well it is going at it, and where you are losing light return. That is why you won't see us recommending Blue Nile, as they do not provide idealscope images for their diamonds. Brian Gavin, White Flash, High Performance Diamonds, James Allen, Good Old Gold and Engagement Rings Direct.

The Idealscope is the 'selection tool'. Not the HCA.
So yes, with a GIA stone you need the idealscope images. Or you can buy an idealscope yourself and take it in to the jeweler you are working with to check the stones yourself. Or if you have a good return policy (full refund minimum 7 days) then you can buy the idealscope, buy the stone, and do it at home.


Now if you want to skip all that... stick to AGS0 stones and then all you have to do is pick color and clarity and you know you have a great performing diamond. Because AGS has already done the checking for you. That's why they trade at a premium.

 

[missyjas]

Oh my! Thank you very much. You are a wealth of information! I really appreciate it. Here is my problem: my previous stone was an EGL diamond so the insurance company is only required to replace to "like kind" that is why I think they only have offered EGL diamonds. I can take a cash out option, but if I do so I a taking less $$ than the value of the diamonds and then if I go shopping for a GIA only stone then I most surely will end up with a smaller stone. Uuugh! Is the only reason you don't like the stone that it is EGL?

 

[Stive85]

Oh my! Thank you very much. You are a wealth of information! I really appreciate it. Here is my problem: my previous stone was an EGL diamond so the insurance company is only required to replace to "like kind" that is why I think they only have offered EGL diamonds. I can take a cash out option, but if I do so I a taking less $$ than the value of the diamonds and then if I go shopping for a GIA only stone then I most surely will end up with a smaller stone. Uuugh! Is the only reason you don't like the stone that it is EGL?

Your cash out is how much if you don't mind me asking? And my .02 cents is that EGL USA is alright (compared to the other EGL labs), but I would want idealscope and other info before proceeding. Like Gypsy said though, GIA and AGS are the class of diamond grading.

 

[Gypsy]

This is the reason I said no EGL. Please read it.

Please read this (yes, all of it): [URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/egl-certification-are-any-of-them-ok.142863/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/egl-certification-are-any-of-them-ok.142863/[/URL]

Are you required to use ONLY that jeweler? Or can you use a different one? If you can use a different jeweler at LEAST we may be able to get you over to a jeweler that will be looking out for you. Because I can you over to a jeweler I trust if you can use anyone.


IF you are stuck using this jeweler tell you him want EGL USA or EGL LA or EGL NY only. Ideal cut only. And that you want a diamond with the following proportions:

depth - 60 - 62% - although my personal preference is to allow up to 62.3%
table - 54- 57%
crown angle - 34- 35 degrees
pavilion angle - 40.6- 40.9 degrees
girdle - avoid extremes, look for thin to slightly thick, thin to medium etc. No very thin, no very thick.
polish - very good and above
symmetry- Excellent
with crown and pavilion angles at the shallower ends ( CA 34- PA 40.6) and steeper ( CA 35- PA 41) check to make sure these angles complement in that particular diamond - USE THE HCA TO CHECK: https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/holloway-cut-advisor If the diamond passes then you know that you are in the right zone in terms of angles for light performance. 2 and under is a pass. Under 2.5-2.1 is a maybe. 2.6 and over is a no. No score under 2 is better than any other.

Tell him you want a H color and VS2 if possible. SI1 if completely eyeclean is okay. But you HAVE to see it first under a loupe.

Also tell me where you live geographically, cause with EGL you'll need a third party appraisal ASAP to make sure the color is really not a K by GIA standards (cause it easily can be with EGL). And to get you an idealscope of the diamond to check light performance.

Still , what would be best is if you could use another jeweler for this.

 

[missyjas]

My previous stone that was chipped was an EGL 2.53 ct. round. H color, VS2 Clarity, 63% table, 58.8% depth, Crown height 10.1%, crown angle 28 degrees, polish "good", symmetry "good".

My cash out offer is $34, 787.

I was directed to a "replacement center" which has access to 800 diamond vendors to find a stone for me. They are the ones who found me the 2.87ct., H color, ideal cut, vs1, EGL diamond. My local jeweler who I designed my ring with and really like has offered the 2.51 ct, IF stone. It is not ideal cut! He is trying to lead me to believe that since it is IF and the other is VS! that that alone makes it more valuable. Frankly, if I am only choosing between the 2 stones i am leaning towards the 2.87 (see hove certificate-EGL USA).

I am totally stressed out in the first place that my original diamond was chipped. It had sentimental value (husband surprised me....brought in stones from NY to look at, designed my ring, etc.). I just want to find the right stone and move forward. Like I said, my hometown jeweler is trying to convince me that the 2.51 stone is better but I am leaning towards the 2.87 because it is ideal cut. Same color (H) as my previous diamond and a VS1....my old stone was VS2.

Thanks for all of your advice!

I live in Tucson, AZ.

 

[Stive85]

My previous stone that was chipped was an EGL 2.53 ct. round. H color, VS2 Clarity, 63% table, 58.8% depth, Crown height 10.1%, crown angle 28 degrees, polish "good", symmetry "good".

My cash out offer is $34, 787.

I was directed to a "replacement center" which has access to 800 diamond vendors to find a stone for me. They are the ones who found me the 2.87ct., H color, ideal cut, vs1, EGL diamond. My local jeweler who I designed my ring with and really like has offered the 2.51 ct, IF stone. It is not ideal cut! He is trying to lead me to believe that since it is IF and the other is VS! that that alone makes it more valuable. Frankly, if I am only choosing between the 2 stones i am leaning towards the 2.87 (see hove certificate-EGL USA).

I am totally stressed out in the first place that my original diamond was chipped. It had sentimental value (husband surprised me....brought in stones from NY to look at, designed my ring, etc.). I just want to find the right stone and move forward. Like I said, my hometown jeweler is trying to convince me that the 2.51 stone is better but I am leaning towards the 2.87 because it is ideal cut. Same color (H) as my previous diamond and a VS1....my old stone was VS2.

Thanks for all of your advice!

I live in Tucson, AZ.

If they are going to give you a check for nearly 35000 dollars, please stop looking and just take the money. You can find a gorgeous 2.5 caret stone for 35000 that will beat any diamond this dealer seems to be offering you..

No question take the money and go shopping online. Unless that was just your appraisal value and not an actual insurance company offer. That would change everything

 

[Stive85]

http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3097225.htm

With money left to burn!

 

[qwedsy]

From what I understood by running your stats quickly through the search engine here https://www.pricescope.com/diamond-search-results it would be possible to get a 2.5 ct AGS/GIA in H/VS2 (and at least an eye clean SI1). And since your previous stone was EGL graded, there's a BIG possibility that it was actually nowhere near H or VS. In a way, if you want to see something positive in what's happened, you could take this as an opportunity to take the money, run and sort of do an upgrade.

 

[Stive85]

Edit: Double post

 

[Gypsy]

Yeah. If they are giving you 35000. We can get you a FABULOUS stone for that budget.

Cash out.

Why is this even a discussion? I thought you were getting only like 18k and were stuck with this guy.

BOY is he taking you for a RIDE if he is claiming ANY of those stones are great values. You don't NEED VS. All you need is eyeclean Si1. Seriously. CLARITY beyond eyeclean does not make a diamond sparkle more. You don't need to go down in size. Go down in perfectly safe clarity. Go up in cut quality and in lab accuracy. Stay in budget. Get a huge stone.

See below. Put one of these on hold. Cash out. Buy the stone.

http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3075986.htm 2.92 carats, clean 9.2mm ideal cut. Perfect Hearts and Arrows. And that I color is going to be whiter than the EGL H.

http://www.briangavindiamonds.com/diamonds/diamond-details/2.625-i-si1-round-diamond-ags-104069785001 Eye Clean. 9.00mm ideal cut. Perfect Hearts and Arrows. Will knock your socks off. And that I color is going to be WHITER than your EGL H.


You are wasting your time on EGL and this jeweler.

Move on.

 

[Stive85]

Yeah. If they are giving you 35000. We can get you a FABULOUS stone for that budget.

Cash out.

Why is this even a discussion? I thought you were getting only like 18k and were stuck with this guy.

BOY is he taking you for a RIDE if he is claiming ANY of those stones are great values. You don't NEED VS. All you need is eyeclean Si1. Seriously. CLARITY beyond eyeclean does not make a diamond sparkle more. You don't need to go down in size. Go down in perfectly safe clarity. Go up in cut quality and in lab accuracy. Stay in budget. Get a huge stone.

See below. Put one of these on hold. Cash out. Buy the stone.

http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3075986.htm 2.92 carats, clean 9.2mm ideal cut. Perfect Hearts and Arrows. And that I color is going to be whiter than the EGL H.

http://www.briangavindiamonds.com/diamonds/diamond-details/2.625-i-si1-round-diamond-ags-104069785001 Eye Clean. 9.00mm ideal cut. Perfect Hearts and Arrows. Will knock your socks off. And that I color is going to be WHITER than your EGL H.


You are wasting your time on EGL and this jeweler.

Move on.

Hi Gypsy, just wanted to point out that I don't believe that 2.9 stone is eye clean, as it is not stamped as such by WF. Think that white crystal just off the center at 9 oclock would be visable?

That being said, you have a far better eye than myself!

 

[arkieb1]

You are obviously missing the point here.... Cut quality is what gives a diamond the fire and sparkle. Most EGL USA stones if not all, are misgraded, because their labs have LESS strict grading policies than GIA. EGL USA is usually 1 to 2 but it can be 3 or 4 grades out in colour and usually 1 or 2 out in clarity they are also much much more lenient with what they "label" Ideal or Excellent cuts.....What this means in layman's terms is that the diamonds this guy is showing you will have less fire and sparkle than Ideal GIA cuts, the EGL stone is going to be incorrectly graded for colour, clarity and for cut grade I will 100% guarantee it.

$34, 787 is not a small amount of money. You can get a beautiful stone for that amount. You need to ask Whiteflash if that stone is eyeclean or not. Your EGL graded VS1 is most likely a SI1 or SI2 as well, where is the plotting map showing the inclusions in it, it should have one and a section with comments where it should tell you if it has graining, fluorescence and other things that can impact on the brilliance of the stone? The stone you are looking at by GIA standards is NOT an Ideal cut....

If you want to check this out go up to the tools box above click on the drop down list and go to the HCA (Holloway Cut Advisor) this gives your stone a Grade of good for light return, Fair for fire, Fair for Scintillation and Very good for Spread and a total visual performance of 4.7 which is classified as good only if price is your main criteria. This stone is an AVERAGE cut....

Someone recently purchased an EGL International diamond and it was 7 colour grades out. You are making a bad decision even wanting to purchase another EGL graded diamond without comparing what else you can get for your money that is comparable if not better value.

 

[Gypsy]

Yeah. If they are giving you 35000. We can get you a FABULOUS stone for that budget.

Cash out.

Why is this even a discussion? I thought you were getting only like 18k and were stuck with this guy.

BOY is he taking you for a RIDE if he is claiming ANY of those stones are great values. You don't NEED VS. All you need is eyeclean Si1. Seriously. CLARITY beyond eyeclean does not make a diamond sparkle more. You don't need to go down in size. Go down in perfectly safe clarity. Go up in cut quality and in lab accuracy. Stay in budget. Get a huge stone.

See below. Put one of these on hold. Cash out. Buy the stone.

http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3075986.htm 2.92 carats, clean 9.2mm ideal cut. Perfect Hearts and Arrows. And that I color is going to be whiter than the EGL H.

http://www.briangavindiamonds.com/diamonds/diamond-details/2.625-i-si1-round-diamond-ags-104069785001 Eye Clean. 9.00mm ideal cut. Perfect Hearts and Arrows. Will knock your socks off. And that I color is going to be WHITER than your EGL H.


You are wasting your time on EGL and this jeweler.

Move on.

Hi Gypsy, just wanted to point out that I don't believe that 2.9 stone is eye clean, as it is not stamped as such by WF. Think that white crystal just off the center at 9 oclock would be visable?

That being said, you have a far better eye than myself!

Sometimes they forget to stamp stones. BGD does this too. It's best just to call. Especially when spending 35K. And ask to speak to a gemologist about each stone yourself. And find out what they can and can't see. They will be scrupulously honest with you. Both these companies are huge on customer service.