Help a budget buyer !!!!

[chat_hard]

First off, great website... awsome info !!!!

Second, I wish girls would find something less expensive to be their "best-friends"

ok... here''s the deal... I''ve been to a couple of jewelers, seen a few websites and am more confused than ever.

So after all the hoopla over color and clarity, now I have learnt about "cut" !!!!!! hmmm

anyways, my price range is $3200 - $3400 for the "rock".... can anyone on this forum help me as to what is the best I can get for this value

Here are some of my considerations (not in order)

* It should be white ... at least to the eye...meaning D to G (or can i go upto I... dunno)

* It should be sparkly, shiny etc (cut ! cut ! cut ! )

* It should be the biggest darned rock that this much money can buy.

Some questions...
Do I really care about hearts and arrows ???
Is there a vendor on this forum that has a shop near princeton NJ... I would love to go see the guy at goldoldgold... but would be better if i find someone closer home

HELP !!!!!

 

[DancinGirl]

Don't rule out going for a G,H,I for color --- it is still NEARLY WHITE - the only way you can see a difference is if you have a D or E color next to it... which you won't. It is white - trust me! And you'll save yourself a TON!

Look for an .80-.85ct Ct VS or SI stone.. color H or I. That should fit your budget!

 

[MichaelF]

Chat...

WOW! You sound like me... four weeks ago... Having gone through this and now on the verge of a purchase, I have some suggestions:

1. Be patient, I was very confused at first, but did just what you have started doing... I posted, asked questions, got answers, and started to learn...

2. Be flexible, when I started out it D, E, or F color only and IF through VVS2 clarity only! I soon found that by being flexible I could maximize the size of my stone without sacrificing the appearance of the diamond. I had to let go of "it has to be perfect" and embrace "it has to be wonderful" because wonderful can be the case without the diamond being D / IF!

3. Be willing to try the Internet merchants... Their customer service is outstanding! If you find an independent appraiser near you, then you don't need a jeweler near you. The Internet merchant will ship your stone to the appraiser, if you accept it the appraiser returns it to the merchant. The merchant will set your stone and send it back to the appraiser. The appraiser verifies the stone is the same, assigns a final value. You then pay for the diamond. The merchant calls the appraiser and releases the ring to your possession. In short, you have the security of the stone being appraised, validated, and valued before you have to put down any cash! Ask your local jeweler if they are willing to work with you on those terms...

In the end I'll be getting diamond with almost twice the surface area from where I started, much more carat weight, and I'm spending about $2,000 less than I would at the B&M... Oh, and by the way... my diamond is more the wonderful... Funny thing... it will only be mine for a week...

Michael

 

[aljdewey]

I'd really recommend "G or H" color....it will allow you to buy more more size and still face up WHITE!

If you want H&A, two stones fit the bill:

NiceIce: .866 ct, H, VS-2, ID/ID/ID, AGS, $3400

Whiteflash: .78 ct, G, SI1, ID/ID, AGS, $3358

If you decide to go non-H&A, you could go up to .91. Whiteflash has a nice 1A stone with ideal/ideal proportions.

http://www.whiteflash.com/acut/diamond_details.asp?ItemCode=552826
.91, H, SI-1, ID/ID proportions, AGS, med blue fluor, $3433

Whatever you decide, good luck!

 

[chat_hard]

Thanks for the replies !!!!

a few more questions

1) will the internet merchant charge me $$$ for sending it to the appraiser ?? what if I chose not to buy the stone ?/

2) I read on some website (i think dirtcheapdiamonds) that hearts and arrows dont really matter ... should I go for the absolute best cut ???? or should I go with, it's pleasing to my eye and all that is what matters ??

will appreciate any answers...

ps: michael...could you please send me the name of the merchant you went through... my email is [email protected]

 

[chat_hard]

I also wanted to know if I should care too much about fluorescence ?? I mean if I'm buying a G or H with medium blue flur... will it affect the look ?? I am planning to have it set in a simple white gold or platinum 4 prong setting... is this too unsafe ?? I mean when I saw stones in 4 prongs versus 6...4 did look much nicer.

thx
-chat

 

[aljdewey]

Med fluor shouldn't be a problem; in fact, it typically helps lower color stones look whiter than they are!

As long as the stone doesn't appear oily or milky, the fluor can actually play in your favor.

 

[chat_hard]

thanks "aljdewey"

From the searches on this website and the vendor websites listed here, it looks like for my price range ($3200- $3400) I might end up with something in this range

0.8 - 0.99 ct
F - I
SI1 - SI2

Is this a good range ??

Second question .....
I would love to use the cut advisor on this website ... but the fact is ...most of the websites do not list the crown and pavillion angles (or %) with the specs of the stone.... what should I do ?


Once again... thanks for all the posts / hints and suggestions

 

[jpdoane]

Go to the main PriceScope page and click on "seach by cut quality" on the Right side.
I didn't see that for a while either, but it makes finding ideal cuts soooo much
easier.

Happy hunting!
-Jon

 

[fire&ice]

If my geography serves me correctly, Dave Atlas (appraiser) is near Princeton on the Phily side. You could always have a stone sent to him.

If the % or > are not furnished, pay attention to the table % & depth %. Go to cut chart (gemappraisers.com) and see what will be a 1A stone to a 2A stone. Chances are the stone will have a nice make.

Desiring H&A is a personal preference. For me, a stone w/ good polish & very good symmetry should be plenty nice visually.

I have a large I color 3c (the larger the stone - the more easy to see body hue) w/ med/strong blue fluor. It faces up very white in a platinum setting. In a stone in the 1c range, a well cut J could face up quite white. Also, an SI could be eye clean. Bl. Fluor in the med/strong range could *indeed* help the stone face up whiter; but, this may limit your selection.

G/H VS2 is a safe bet. Me, I'd go I/J SI in a larger stone w/ a very good make.

Good luck.

 

[manhattan01]

You've got some great advice from these people. The only thing I want to add is that I'm in Vancouver, B.C. (the other end of North America) and I bought from Jonathan at Good Old Gold. In my opinion, have a look at his wares, pick out a few stones, let him and know and make a trip of it to Long Island. He provides excellent service. His stones even come with an appraisal that will work for insurance purposes.

-spencer

 

[hoorray]

Searching by cut quality, as Jon says, is a good start. If you don't find something there, there are lots of good quality GIA stones out there listed as ideal without the crown and pavilion angles listed. If you narrow it down to a few potentials and then contact the vendors, they can typically provide you all of the Sarin dimensions including those, and you can put them through the HCA yourself from this website. It also will be good to start a live dialog with one or more vendors so that you get a feel for how they work and who you like dealing with. They can typically help you find more options, and will also give you their opinions on them.

good luck!

 

[chat_hard]

Hello Everyone,

First, Thanx for the great advice !! really, really appreciate it

I think I will pay Johnathan a visit... just that he is on vacation till august 4.

I did go and see Robbins Diamonds near Princeton (lawrenceville).
They showed me a 0.71c I /VS2 with a platinum 4 prong ring for $2995 (sorry didnt get any measurements...) but they called it an "ideal cut"

1) They seem to work with this instrument called I-SEE 2 which showed the stone to have a score of 7.8 I did read about this on GOG website... but am not too sure if it is of any value

2) Has anyone bought from them before ??

will appreciate any replies

thx guys

ps: I almost forgot to mention... this is going to be a total surprise for her... which is why buying it without her knowing it is so much more difficult

 

[trichrome]

One last thing you should remember before purchase :

diamonds in the 70-89 pts range have all the same price per carat for a certain clarity/color combo.
When you hit the 90 pts mark, you`re going to pay more per carat..it`s up to you to know
if it`s worth it..

My advice would be to get something around .85 or around .95
this is where you`ll maximize your profit". However these stones are pretty difficult
to find.

Trichrome.

 

[MichaelF]

Chat,

I sent you an email, here is some additional info...






1) will the internet merchant charge me $$$ for sending it to the appraiser ?? what if I chose not to buy the stone ?/

I can only speak for the two merchants I worked with (Dirt Cheap Diamonds and White Flash) and neither was going to charge for the shipping to the appraiser. In the end, my stone of choice, was at White Flash and they did have a policy that if you reject the diamond then you pay $40 for shipping and insurance. Check with WF regarding details and to confirm my understanding of the policy.

2) I read on some website (i think dirtcheapdiamonds) that hearts and arrows dont really matter ... should I go for the absolute best cut ???? or should I go with, it's pleasing to my eye and all that is what matters ??

I spoke with Jim at DCD and he said as much to me on the phone, All I can say is that when I saw the H&A I should pick-up today I was floored by the comparison between it and other stones. I will say that to the untrained / uneducated eye some of this may be lost. But the problem is, here you get the education and training and then it starts to make a difference. My appraiser called me on Friday night to resolve a color grading issue, said he has taken extra micrographs (pics) of my diamond. He said he had a standard set of micrographs for a superideal cut diamond on his wall and is changing them out to use my diamond as his model! He went on to say it was one of the finest cut stones he had seen in his entire career. Earlier that day I was dropping my watch off for repair and saw similar stones (not H&A but AGS 0) retailing for $5,000 more than I'm paying! So to me I'm getting a $$,$$$ stone for $,$$$ and that's worth it! I also think it looks really cool to see the arrows...

My suggestion would be to pour your funds into the cut... You can get by with a different color and a different clarity that no one will notice if your lady has a ball of fire on her finger...

Michael

 

[Hest88]

Those who sell H&As say they matter, those who don't say they don't.

A H&A provides a certain guarantee of a certain level of light return, purely due to the incredible internal symmetry. However, if size is a consideration, and your gal doesn't know better, that .91 aljdewey posted would be a good alternative. It still sounds like a great cut.

 

[chat_hard]

Hi,

I am "re"posting the question... has anyone on this forum had any experience with Robbins Diamond... I understand they have 5 branches around philadelphia / central jersey

-chat

 

[ccuheartnurse]

If you want to maximize your budget, then Si-1, G-I is where you want to be. In the smaller ct. range, its safer to stick with SI-1, just make sure the inclusions are white.
As for H&A stones, I have one & I get totally turned on by my arrows. Of course, this is just my opinion.
Stick with non-branded H&A. Learn what ideal proportions are & have faith in your research & education to get your girl a great stone. It doesnt have to have a designer label on it to be outstanding. Jonathan has some great stones, but I find his stones to have a premium as well since he does a lot of work to showcase those stones. Heck, he wants to sell them doesnt he? But he also tacks on a fee for all that. I like Jonathan so please dont get me wrong. I also shopped for the best value I could to spend my fiance's money. I went through Jan & Brad at Diamond Brokers of Florida. They have the goods, just not as flashy as a website as others. Jan will email you back just as fast as you email her. Try them out, www.diamondbrokersoffl.com There are a few of us on this board that have bought through them. They dont advertise or post here so thats why the small following. They may not be flashy but it might be worth your while to check them out.

Judy

 

[ccuheartnurse]

Forgot to add,
I found Robbins Bros. to be quite expensive compared to any of the online dealers from here. Jan & Brad of Diamond Brokers of Florida also use the I-See-2 machine & BScope. Jonathan does as well. I would say, spend your money online & get a better & bigger rock. You're right to stick with SI-1 clarity. As I mentioned before, just make sure the inclusions are white. Clouds are generally safe. I have a non-branded H&A, AGS- 1.55 SI-1, G & in no way can you see any inclusions.

Judy

 

[chat_hard]

Hello everyone,

Re-posting a prior question..... most of the listings on the vendor websites do not furnish crown angles or pavilion angles. I know someone had suggested that I go through the "seach by cut quality" listings..... on pricescope... but these listings seem to have a "premium" over the other listings.

One of the vendors I called (dont wanna use names) told me that they only consider the table % and total depth % which is the primary indicator of a good cut .. wanted to know what the experts on this forum have to say about that.

Second question... the same person told me that EGL typically estimates the color of the diamond to be one grade higher... for example a "G" would be most probably marked as "F" ... is this true

would appreciate any replies

 

[aljdewey]

Hi, Chat: Yes, most of the "cut quality" listings do seem to have a premium, and it's likely because most of them are either "branded" H&As or they are offered by GOG, whose prices also seem to carry a bit of a premium (which I'm sure is fair considering the information available on each stone).

The vendor who said the table%/depth% were primary indicators of a good cut would seem to be in disagreement with nearly every vendor here. Most vendors here won't even venture a guess as to how well-cut a diamond is without crown/pav angles, and all of them here provide it on their stones. I'd strongly advise avoiding any vendor who cannot or will not provide crown/pavilion angles. These angles are important; they determine the alignment between the facets, which in turn affects the diamond's performance (sparkle). Think of this like a funhouse full of mirrors....if a few mirrors are misaligned, the net result is skewed.

It's true that a number of vendors don't list the crown/pav angles on their sites for every diamond, but that doesn't necessarily mean they don't have the data if you ask for it. I know several people here have purchased gorgeous non-branded H&As from Diamond Brokers of Florida and they were provided with any piece of info they could want, but it's not on the website initially. Probably too much work involved when only a segment of the market is concentrated on "cut".

On your EGL question: essentially, yes, it's true. I don't know if it's true often enough to say it happens "typically", but several appraisers here have noted that some EGL certs are right on the money and others are off and graded leniently. It is not uncommon for an EGL cert to overstate the color or clarity or both by a grade.....(rating a diamond as F when other strict labs would rate it is G).

As a matter of personal preference, I prefer to stick with AGS/GIA/HRD. But if you find a diamond that speaks to you and it's an EGL stone, don't rule it out, but BE SURE independent appraisal prior to purchase. Also, if you do consider an EGL stone, MAKE SURE the EGL cert is a US cert.....if it's issued elsewhere (Israel for example), the cert can be off by MULTIPLE grades on color and/or clarity.

 

[fire&ice]

Much has been made about crown & pavillion angles as they can easily be put into HCA for a "cut score". It is my understanding that these are relatively new measurements to measure effectively (with a piece of equipment that is quite expensive).

Many jewelers still use table & depth percentages & relationship between as a determination of cut. It really isn't that simple; but, *does indeed* reflect a stones appearance. If you have a stone in the 1A/1B/2A class, the stone has a very good chance of having a good make. Though, I know the cut geeks will flog me for saying so.

That said, nothing will take the place of your eyes.

 

[Mara]

You mention that the 'cut quality' stones have a bit of a premium over whatever you found on the regular Pscope search. That premium $ difference you see, IMO, is the quality of the CUT of the stones. Running a regular Pscope search brings up EVERYTHING that the included vendors sell. From what I have seen on #'s, 90% of those stones are going to be of mediocre cut. Look at the total depth and table % and start narrowing it down. Use the H&A and AGS 0 check boxes to help you weed through the duds.

IMO the slight premium you pay for the cut quality search is worth it. 99% of those stones listed in there are going to be amazingly cut and beautiful to the eyes. It takes alot of the work out of it. I'm not even talking about just the branded stones like the ACA's...but rather that GOG has a bunch of brokered stones that are H&A, AGS0 and perform under 2.0 on the HCA for less than a typical branded stone...and slightly more than a typical Pscope stone.

I think the slight difference is worth it..and I would definitely go with the #'s IF you are buying online, those numbers will replace your eyes in many instances. If you are seeing the stones in person, get the crown and pav angles, they will help you as you plug the info into the HCA *and* the AGA DIY cut calculator. Stick with under 2.0 on the HCA and 1A-2B grading on the AGA chart and I think you are fine.

DirtCheapDiamonds and similar vendors will give you crown and pavilion angles even though they don't post them on their site or on the Pscope search. So you CAN save money by going through a vendor that carries either unbranded H&A's or unbranded 'ideals'...though be careful with the 'ideal' marker as anyone can claim a stone is ideal and if you don't have the #'s to check things out, that term is basically useless.

On color and clarity, I second most everyone's thoughts here...you can even go up to H and I with an excellently cut stone, something you could not do with a mediocre cut stone because it would easily show more color. For clarity, get the most bang for your budgeted buck with a SI1 or an eye-clean SI2 (with the inclusion settable under a prong or something is nice).

You have some great advice here from other members...best of luck!

 

[fire&ice]

I'm curious - (and lazy to do the research) - How much of a premium does the excellent cuts bring? 5% 10% 60%?

Personally, I would pay an additional 10% for a well documented excellent cut stone. I'm not sure I would pay 25% more though. I *know* I would not pay for the likes of a HOF stone.

Also, curious can my eye really see a difference in the long run between a 1.5 vs 2.5. I'd venture a guess to say no. I can't see paying 20% more for a 1.5 hca vs 2.5 hca. That said, I would never look at a stone over 4.5 -5 hca regardless of price.

I'm not saying that cut isn't important. Heck, I discovered this before some of you were born. But, I think the focus on cut is somewhat an internet phenom. I had a vendor tell me that well cut stones are nearly almost never rejected when sent.

Just my spin to conteract the focus on cut spinning out of control. Playing the devil's advocate is such fun.

 

[Mara]

Okay so here is a very very rough comparison and not totally accurate because the ranges of the prices are SO all over the map. I tried to take similar stones in ctw, color and comparison, except for the odd G VS which may be pricier due to jump in color.


Cut Quality Search Stones: AGS 0, mostly H&A, HCA Score under 2.0

GOG Brokered:
H&A AGS 0
HCA Score Under 2.0
1.03c G VS2
$6333

WhiteFlash ACA:
H&A AGS 0 A Cut Above
HCA Score Under 2.0
1.02 H VS1
$6308

Nice Ice:
AGS 0
HCA Score Under 2.0
1.01 H VS1
$5825

Non Cut Quality Stones: Pscope H&A AGS 0 (but no crown/pav angles)

Abazias:
H&A AGS 0
No HCA Score
1.0 H VS2
$4790

DirtCheapDiamonds:
H&A AGS 0
No HCA Score
1.04 H VS2 $5216

GOG Brokered:
HA& AGS 0
No HCA Score (but must be over 2.0 or else would have been included in 'cut quality' search)
1.03 H VS1
$5901

Non Cut Quality Stones: No AGS 0, No H&A...Regular Pscope search (most have depth over 62%):

Diamond Vault:
1.01 H VS1
No HCA Score
$3904

USA CertEd:
1.01 H VS1
No HCA Score
$4155

WhiteFlash
1.01 H VS1
No HCA Score
$4302

----------------------------------
So what does this mean??!?!

Group 1) Non Cut Quality Stones: Non AGS 0, Non H&A range anywhere from $3900-$4400 for 1.01 H VS or similar.

Group 2) Non Cut Quality Stones: AGS 0 , H&A but no qualified #'s range anywhere from $4500-6000 for around 1.01 H VS or similar.

Group 3) Cut Quality Stones: AGS 0, H&A or similar with qualified HCA scores range anywhere from $5800-$6400 or similar

So in a ROUGH comparison since just because the ctw and color and clarity are the same, and taking the averages in each group price range, the cuts are still very variable, even within each category....the Group 1 stones are 10% less than Group 2 stones. Group 2 stones are around 24% less than HCA qualified Group 3 stones. The gap between Group 3 stones and Group 1 stones is about 40% markup.

And above and beyond Group 3 stones, stones such as the HOF which range around $10k for a 1c H VS stone would be over a 50% markup over Group 3 stones. So the differences definitely range in the thousands the higher up on the 'brand' chain you go. However IMO I would go for a stone in Group 3 over a Group 1 or 2 stone anyday, and definitely over the HOF markup. It seems like a nice compromise on pricing, but no compromise on quality!!

Something interesting to note is that within Group 2...the stones that qualify themselves as H&A and AGS 0 but with no supporting #'s or HCA Score...the range is the largest in price. You can find a stone that says its 1.01 H VS for $4500 and then another one for $6000. So even within one group you will notice large swings in price. Similar to Group 3, an AGS 0 stone that is not HCA is $500 less than a branded H&A, even though they both score under 2.0 on the HCA.

Such is the nature of the cut discussion--very variable, not altogether correct or incorrect on all points. Since each stone is so incredibly different, its hard to compare apples to apples unless you are looking at something like a branded stone vs a branded stone (e.g. ACA vs HOF) in which case the difference in price is VERY OBVIOUS for what most likely is similar quality. Other than that, it's very confusing to the average consumer.

I'm sure this did not help in the least. Oh well!

 

[fire&ice]

A thorough analysis - bravo Mara.

Me, I'd look in the #2 & be very picky. I'd get a stone w/ good polish, very good symmetry within certain table & depth %'s. Also, I would seriously consider a stone in the 2-3+ HCA *if* the price was right. If I was able to view several 1a/b-2b stones, I would not need the crown & pavillion angles or %.

But then, I love the look of an OEC. And, consider the 5th c (cleanliness) to be paramount even to cut.

 

[Mara]

An important point is that the AGA cut charts and the DIY cut grader requests the pav % depth and the crown angle and % in order to really determine where your stone falls into. Just using depth and table #'s IMO are not enough to determine what the real grade would be on the AGA cut charts though it will not prevent you from getting a score if you do not have them.

Because that crown angle and % or pav % may be out of the range.....and severly affect the look of the stone and the grading depending on the other numbers (e.g. girdle, table, depth, etc).

Also on choosing within Group 2...you will see as the numbers on the stones are better (depth, table, etc) the prices go up. Take for example that GOG stone listed below for $5900. The HCA score must be out of 2.0 range since it was not in the CQ search...but its almost $6k. If this constitutes a well cut stone but not branded, I would definitely spend the additional $400 to get the ACA in Group 3. So this is where the real nitty gritty comes down to. Most of the time you are choosing from stones with small price differences such as this if you are looking at similar quality. Most of the price differences we see on the board are around $500 or similar for one stone vs another. In that case, I would definitely always take the HCA confirmed stone, hopefully with some other reporting to back up the cut.

 

[aljdewey]

You know, this whole thread resurrects a wish list item that I'd like to see LEONID address.

F&I's right in the sense that some people may personally choose to select a less than perfect (but still above average) cut as a compromise to allow them a larger stone, higher clarity, etc. Customers do it all the time with respect to color/clarity/carat.....everyone determines what their "tradeoffs" will be.

I'd personally find the "cut quality" feature more attractive if it would show stones that exceed 2.0 but are still nice stones.

What if you could search for stones that score between 1.0 and 1.5? 2.0 to 2.5? 2.5 to 3.0? Or, what if the "cut quality" search produced results from lowest to highest HCA score (as it does now), but it went up to 3 or 3.5 instead of stopping at 2.0?

As Mara herself knows, her stone wouldn't turn up in a search of "cut quality", and yet it's GORGEOUS. Those who prefer parameters SLIGHTLY outside the norm have no way to wade through.

This would allow those people who want "just a smidge below" the "Rolls-Royce" of cut to more readily find such stones.

Leonid, I really think this feature would enhance your site tenfold. Response?

 

[Mara]

I would actually like to see a Cut Quality search that classified according to the HCA...say TIC vs BIC vs FIC. This lets people who are looking for stones like mine actually look for stones that fit within the parameters of what may be a nice stone..larger table, shallower depth, shallower crown angle or similar..and know that they are not getting a fisheye etc. Same with FIC..people who want more fire rather than brilliance. TIC would be the typical ideal or superideal branded stones that are in there now.

But I digress....actually you CAN search for stones that score over 2.0 on the HCA. You just have to pull down the 'Excellent' and choose 'Very Good' or 'Good'. There are no 'Good' or 'Fair' stones in there last time I looked, but there are alot of 'Very Good' stones (2.0-3.9 I think?). Almost all of them are from GOG's brokered stone list and the range is huge, utilizing the entire 2.0-3.9 spread.

I think that vendors should post more of their 'very good' stones on the Cut Quality search (say like DCD who sells a large range of stones and has angles for their stones but don't post them all the time) and also WF's non-ideal stones, but I think they may be deterred because most people use the CQ to search for Excellent or under 2.0, or even because alot of the Pscope people don't even know the tool exists because of it's placement in a random area on the homepage or know how to use it. I think the entire tool could use a revamp and have more attn paid to how to best position it for customers.

 

[pricescope]

Good points, Aljdewey, Mara.

[/u]