Hearts and arrows so what !

[Iceman]

I get in this diamond 58.7 % depth and 60% table it shows really crisp hearts and arrows ? This diamond sparkles!

Then I get in two diamonds , both .63 carat weight "D" color one VS1 the other VS2. They both have the same Depth 62% and the same table 57% .

One diamond has text book hearts and arrows the other text book arrows only the hearts are a mess to the point they dont look like hearts. The one without the hearts had a little more sparkle and even the client told me that too!


I have noticed this a lot. Tell me why we all pump this hearts and arrows thing ? Unless you have a widget or a gidget on your arm the only people that knows you have hearts and arrows is your jeweler

Have a nice Day
Corey

 

[Rank Amateur]

Maybe the non-H&A helter skelter cut has more scintillation.

Maybe disorganization of the returning light is a good thing!

 

[solange]

----------------
On 6/14/2004 11:44:15 AM Rank Amateur wrote:

Maybe the non-H&A helter skelter cut has more scintillation.

Maybe disorganization of the returning light is a good thing!
----------------

Interesting comment from "Rank Amateur." I recently bought a ring that was Ideal cut but not hearts and arrows. When I posted the Idealscope image, Sarin and the GIA information, CutNut(HCA Garry) replied that the GIA had given my stone a grade of very good symmetry which he felt was an overgrade since the top facets were not properly aligned with the bottom ones. However he also stated that this particular defect might actually be an asset and improve the appearance of the stone.(Is this disorganization of returning light)?
I thought I had made a careful study but now more technical information from new devices keeps appearing and I find it very confusing and conflicting. I am happy with my ring but I am wondering how much of this technical information is useful and accurate and will remain as scientific fact and how much of the information is opinion of the vendor based on the wares he has to sell. An example is the above information on hearts and arrows which Iceman does not seem to feel is of great importance to the beauty of the stone.

 

[dpe49]

Now you know why GIA is having such a difficult time applying cut grade to their certs.

 

[Stephan]

----------------

On 6/14/2004 11:39:13 AM Iceman wrote:

One diamond has text book hearts and arrows the other text book arrows only the hearts are a mess to the point they dont look like hearts. The one without the hearts had a little more sparkle and even the client told me that too!

----------------

One of my diamonds has very beautiful hearts but the arrows are a mess.
Very sparkly and fiery diamond.

 

[verticalhorizon]

Ideal-scope.com has some good examples of what can be considered diamonds with good light return that aren't ideal cut. While they may perform just fine AND are probably a great value, for me (and me alone) I probably would still opt for a diamond with excellent or VG symmetry, b/c the person who has to wear it will see it every day in all types of lighting (incl. diffuse) and must love it for it's own beauty.

I think this also stems from the fact that I am a guy and poll after poll has said that men will go for quality and women will go for size. Generalization? Sure. Uncharacteristic of the women on PS.com? Probably.

 

[chialea]

GoodOldGold also has some very interesting "learning" stones:

http://www.goodoldgold.com/learning_stones.htm

 

[Mara]

for me personally, i prefer the hearts and arrows in the stone since at many times they catch the light just right and then i can see the perfect pattern! it's like an extra viewing bonus. my old stone had a mess under the scope with at certain times very thin arrows being visible, but never once did i catch it in regular viewing under any lighting circumstances. hands down H&A is my fave.

 

[scotch]

Mara, I agree completely. So non-H&A stones sometimes have more fire and scintillation. I don't even find that surprising. What about brilliance and symmetry? Visible luster, metallic reflection, symmetric arrangement of facets and reflections, performance in diffuse light conditions, doesn't that count for something? I for one like perfect symmetry in a diamond. When I want to see chaos I can look at my home.

Scotch

 

[oldminer]

Some people like symmetrical patterns. Some are ore appreciative of free-form things. Both kinds of people can co-exist and never truly agree on the aesthtics of some rather expensive things like diamonds.

The lack or presence of H&A does not equate to a particular light return which is either higher or lower. The lack or exactness of symmetry may have a small part in scintillation but your eyes just may not detect these things. Someone's eyes might detect it and others surely won't see it at all.

H&A is a neat detail which with the use of a handy - dandy viewer gives a nice marketing package to sellers and purchasers. Everyone is looking for little sales angles and H&A is very tricky and cool. To my mind the H&A effect demonstrates the fine symmetry of a diamond, but does not tell me how good the stone will look. It is a good clue however, because few ugly diamonds would have kept the cutter busy with doing a fine cutting job. A good cutter only makes a finely symmetrical stone when it is worth the additional required time. There is a touch of logic in all of this.....

 

[Iceman]

Scotch:

Yes, in the real world we live in, your diamond that does not have a pedigree will sparkle as much. Maybe under that certain widget or gidget it will say it’s a pinpoint difference in light return ! But your eye can’t pick that up. Yes, in these lab conditions we can separate one from the other. But, we all live in the real world. What extra are you paying for ?

I think Oldminer put it best. Both kinds of people can co-exist and never truly agree on the aesthtics of some rather expensive things like diamonds.

I’ve seen some engineers that marvel at the hearts and arrows and that’s all they care about. It’s for their pleasure and their knowledge. Others are frugal with their money and $1,000 means something to them.



I would say , purchase what you want and like what you buy. Don’t buy for what you think is an approval by this forum or your friends.

When buying a diamond you need to see it and compare it. Go by your gut feeling on how it looks and then enjoy the diamond.

Some people on this board give you answers that are politically correct and what they have learned well here. They have not seen diamonds on a daily basis. Learn but learn from your own experience.



Take Care
Corey

 

[Mara]

Iceman, I think it's important to point out that people are not necessarily paying EXTRA for H&A stones. It depends on where you are shopping for that H&A stone and where you would have shopped for the non H&A stone. If you are going to a B&M where the markup is ridiculous, that non H&A could be the same as an online H&A vendor or a B&M with very low markup. So there IS no trade-off there. To me in an instance like that, it's a no brainer.




But if the difference was HUGE in cost, that's a different comparison. For some it may not be worth it to get that extra bit of ideal if it costs significantly more and your eye will not catch the additional positives.




However, it's not really true to lump all H&A diamonds into the 'more expensive' category than non...because it is all very objective.

 

[Iceman]

I believe you pay a premium for a H&A , being at a B & M or online ! Don’t be so hard on the B&M or the Brick and Clicks. I have yet to be beaten by an internet sale

that’s if you’re talking quality, that’s all I do.
We are by referral only here, so I don’t take all the orders I get off the internet without a referral you dont get the best prices. I'm ready to open up a new division here shortly to give everybody an opportunity to purchase from me.

Things change, I like the way I do business and I think I'm ready for the next step into the internet. Think about it mmmmmmmmmmmmm going from no bounced checks, no stole bank cards, knowing everybody and who sent them in and no returns ! To the internet !!!! I must be nuts

But things are moving that way and its time to get my feet wet after being on all of these talk forums since 1999.

Corey

 

[Mara]

B&M, B&C or Online only...everyone has a different margin built in. I have seen some H&A stones online that are CHEAPER than a similar sized crappy looking cut stone from time to time, and there are alot of them that are comparably priced for H&A or non. It's all about doing the homework IMO and going with the best deal!

No matter who you buy from!

 

[Nicrez]

Agreed with OldMiner, it's about taste. Recently a friend went to an art auction and raved about a modern art painting she bought. Her husband and I shared our distate for the "thing", but she cooed and purred about how the insane price she paid was well worth it.

Call me nuts, but generally if you paint a dog, it should look like a dog, or whatever. On the other hand, she's into expression and free form.

So, are diamonds art? I would say so.

I recently saw my friend's H&A stone that was cut to perfection. Hated it. Honestly. I thought some other non H&A where more impressive somehow. I thought the arrows where just TOO obvious and were dark and showing up at almost every angles and it disturbed me.

Then again, I own a Radiant and when we talk uniform style, we are NOT talking about Radiants...(aka cracked glass). I bought the CZ version of the Jubilee, to see what the fuss was about cut-wise. I ADORE IT! But my fiance and I both agreed that I still liked the sparkle of my Radiant over the Jubilee.

It's a different look, but each one has it's loyal followers and it's market. I don't mind owning both, and appreciating them both, but my taste still goes towards the mystery and unpredicability of the Radiant's sparkle over the H&A of the Jubilee, especially for my engagement ring...

H&A ARE generally more expensive than a non-H&A, but that is because of demand and the higher amount of efficiency and loss to a diamond rough due to achieving the exacting standards of a H&A. Makes sense to me, so if it's worth it to someone, they'll buy it. If not, they won't.

Taste is as personal as a fingerprint.

 

[Superidealist]

On 6/14/2004 4:40:44 PM Iceman wrote:

I would say , purchase what you want and like what you buy. Don't buy for what you think is an approval by this forum or your friends.

When buying a diamond you need to see it and compare it. Go by your gut feeling on how it looks and then enjoy the diamond.

This sounds like excellent advice to me.

 

[Rhino]

Hey Ice,

Good to cya round. I agree. Not all H&A are the best and I've witnessed non H&A's that had more kick than H&A's plenty of times (although I would say that is not a common occurence). At the Vegas show I saw many stones being advertised as H&A, even a booth that was giving out IdealScopes with their diamonds at 40% back from list. They were the ugliest looking supposed H&A stones I had ever seen.

 

[niceice]

We concur... Which is why our focus is on buying diamonds with exceptional visual performance for inventory and not just those that exhibit a crisp and complete pattern of Hearts & Arrows... We've seen a lot of non H&A diamonds that simply ROCK and a lot of H&A's that were duds... Each diamond must be evaluated individually in terms of brilliance, dispersion and scintillation regardless of the presence or lack of a pattern. As duly noted, some people prefer a more symmetrical pattern of light return and other people prefer a more scattered effect.

We don't pay a premium for H&A goods "because" what we're seeing represented as "H&A" wouldn't make the Excellent grade at Zenhokyo or CGL Japan 99% of the time - so we refuse to pay the premium and thankfully the cutters haven't made a point of it thus far.

 

[Jennifer5973]

My unexpert 2 cents? H&A diamonds are no doubt very beautiful and the pattern is superb...But I believe that it is possible to have a beautiful diamond that is not an H&A stone...As many here seem to be saying.

 

[scotch]

----------------
On 6/14/2004 4:40:44 PM Iceman wrote:

Scotch:

Yes, in the real world we live in, your diamond that does not have a pedigree will sparkle as much. Maybe under that certain widget or gidget it will say it’s a pinpoint difference in light return ! But your eye can’t pick that up. Yes, in these lab conditions we can separate one from the other. But, we all live in the real world. What extra are you paying for ?

----------------

Iceman,

I appreciate your point of view. I agree with you in that the eye won't pick up a minute difference in light return. However, you will see a difference in symmetry and brilliance, especially in a larger stone. I do like to see the star pattern, and by the way, it's not just all black arrows. In some light conditions, you will see the arrows forming a black star, in other circumstances you may see silvercolored arrows reflected at you, or other colors that are present and get "sucked" into the stone and thrown back at you. All that you can see with just your eyes. And yes, the stone has sparkle and fire, and plenty of it. Of course, money is always a legitimate concern. But from across the room, a $5 simulant sparkles just as nice as any H&A. You will have to look closely to tell them apart. So what's the point? For some people, only a H&A will do, others don't care. I can only speak for myself, but I don't believe for a minute the symmetry and brilliance of H&A don't matter. Once you're hooked, you can't go back.

On another point: please tell us more about your upcoming presence on the web. Looking forward to it!

Scotch

 

[Paul-Antwerp]

Ice,

The H&A that you are talking about are not the H&A that anybody on Pricescope is talking about.

Too many people (also in the trade) do not understand what real H&A is, or maybe they are using a smoke-screen (either to sell unreal H&A's or to talk down H&A's).

You are giving examples of H&A's with a depth of 58.7% and of 62%.

If you check the stock of Whiteflash, NiceIce, Goodoldgold, Superbcert, Infinity, you will not fine one stone with such a depth. Why? Because such a depth can exhibit a H&A-pattern, but will not have the best combinations of proportions.

You remind me of the man, who did not like girls in miniskirts, because he just saw a fat lady in it passing by.

Live long,

 

[mdx]

Guys here is an interesting angle on this thread.

Our sales staff will often show a client up to ten diamonds of similar size and color and allow them to choose what they feel is beautiful. If we don’t point out an ideal hearts and arrows most clients seem to choose a stone just outside ideal cut range. Like a HCA 2.5. even when there are number of ideal cuts in the range.

Now here is what’s interesting, If the sales consultant does a presentation explaining the virtues of the ideal cuts and demonstrates with an ideal scope and then a hearts and arrows scope. The client will always choose the Ideal H&A when the stone is compared to the others.
It seems like some sort of autosuggestion affects the subconscious mind into what it perceives to be beauty once a visual presentation is done.

Anyone have any thoughts on this or experienced something similar

Johan

 

[aljdewey]

----------------
On 6/15/2004 5:26:23 AM Paul-Antwerp wrote:





You remind me of the man, who did not like girls in miniskirts, because he just saw a fat lady in it passing by.
----------------

ROTFLMAO! That is the funniest thing I've read in weeks! Thanks for the laugh, Paul. Great analogy.

 

[Rank Amateur]

But put a MAN in a miniskirt - NOW you have Corey's attention.

 

[niceice]

----------------
On 6/15/2004 5:26:23 AM Paul-Antwerp wrote:

Ice,

You remind me of the man, who did not like girls in miniskirts, because he just saw a fat lady in it passing by.
----------------

Now there is a visual that we could have done without

H&A is such an overused and abused term... There are those of us who "understand it" and those who never will... Those of us who do have already been named...

Take two diamonds of equal carat weight, color and clarity, one that is a well cut 60/60 type of stone and another which is a well cut ideal cut diamond (by well cut ideal, we are referring to the tighter range of super ideal) place them in identical mountings, let your sales staff wear them around for a week and then place them both in the display case dirty... Let your customers consider both diamonds, ours always seem to pick the ideal cut option after the comparison.

 

[niceice]

----------------
On 6/15/2004 5:26:23 AM Paul-Antwerp wrote:

Ice,

You remind me of the man, who did not like girls in miniskirts, because he just saw a fat lady in it passing by.
----------------

Now there is a visual that we could have done without

H&A is such an overused and abused term... There are those of us who "understand it" and those who never will... Those of us who do have already been named...

Take two diamonds of equal carat weight, color and clarity, one that is a well cut 60/60 type of stone and another which is a well cut ideal cut diamond (by well cut ideal, we are referring to the tighter range of super ideal) place them in identical mountings, let your sales staff wear them around for a week and then place them both in the display case dirty... Let your customers consider both diamonds, ours always seem to pick the ideal cut option after the comparison.

 

[pipeline]

I don't care how a stone looks in the Jewelery store underneath all those lights. I care about how it looks indoors, outdoors, difused light, natural lihgt, low light, candlelight, in all combinations of light overall. Even if you were to line up stones in a Jewelery store, they can't compare cut. I highly doubt they will have sarin and OGI numbers so I don't think an apples to apples comparison can be made at a typical jewelery store.

 

[mdx]

Hi Pipeline
I totally agree with you re jewellers lighting,
Our case is different though, We have purpose fitted diamond viewing rooms with non UV fluorescent lights at 5800 Kelvin Flat white walls and ceilings and a controlled amount of natural light. Window glass filters about 90% of UV out.
The diamonds are also steam cleaned prior to viewing
We do have a Sarin so we can easily compare apples with apples.
I am beginning to think that human perception of beauty is much more complex than we imagined.

However once the stone get a bit dirty as Niceice points out then the ideal cuts show there true superiority.

Johan

 

[Iceman]

Paul:

Dont take this wrong I like you, but we do have a difference in thought here.

I know what I saw. I know your going to defend a product you push. Maybe you should look at some off cuts sometime and compare?

No smoke screen, just that I don’t feel like I should act like everybody else and blow smoke on the public. I report things that I’ve experienced to the public. If this interferes with all the widgets and gadgets you suggest people to wear at a party to prove to everybody they have a "True" Hearts and Arrows diamonds then I’m sorry.

Another diamond ~ A true hearts and Arrows, or at least what you will except as being one 61% depth and 57 table. Ok that diamond came in and it sucked with a capital "S”, it was an SI1 and it looked foggy (no florescence). The million pinpoint inclusions that were so fine it was hard to pick them up on a scope made it look that way.

People need to see the diamonds, numbers don’t always help.

Also don’t be afraid to raise your hand in class you might have a better answer

Paul: What is the set standard for Hearts and Arrows I would like to hear this.




You remind me of the girls my wife has coffee with in the mourning. You have to be like everybody else in the way you think ;anything else is wrong. Don’t be afraid to ask "why" sometimes

Corey J.
*I’m not one of those pajama dealing diamond dealers on the internet either. I did get an education

PSS : I did get a good non formal education on Hearts and Arrows from Nice Ice I think they do a great job explaining it.

 

[Paul-Antwerp]

Ice, I like you too. No problem there.

Only forgive me for not answering in detail today. Too much other things on my mind. I will come back to you tomorrow.

Live long,