Hearts and Arrows - set stone?

[dudeinlove]

Is there a way to tell if a stone is "hearts and arrows" if it already set?

I can definitely see arrows (these pics sort of show them) [URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/round-brilliant-in-cushion-halo-ritani.186442/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/round-brilliant-in-cushion-halo-ritani.186442/[/URL]

but i am wondering if arrows indicate that the hearts would be on the side (realize once it's set you can't see them) and if one can call it hearts and arrows by looking at the stone well set without special tools?

 

[04diamond<3]

The only way to know for sure is to look at the certificate. If it says true h&a, then it is and you know there are hearts on the bottom. But if it's set already, you won't be able to see the hearts even if you do see arrows. There are plenty of stones that are cut with arrows and I believe most of the time the hearts will be there but how perfect they'll be you won't know unless you have an AGS 0 report or GIA report that classifies the stone as a hearts and arrows stone.

 

[dudeinlove]

I thought that GIA and AGS did not grade/classify HAs?

 

[dudeinlove]

Just dbl checked my AGS cert no mention of HA

 

[04diamond<3]

Just dbl checked my AGS cert no mention of HA

Unless I'm wrong, I believe an AGS 0 stone is a hearts and arrows stone. are you not confident in your stone? Where'd you get it from? Do you have a picture or an ideal scope image? Does your certificate have an aset on it?

 

[SMC]

Just dbl checked my AGS cert no mention of HA

Unless I'm wrong, I believe an AGS 0 stone is a hearts and arrows stone. are you not confident in your stone? Where'd you get it from? Do you have a picture or an ideal scope image? Does your certificate have an aset on it?

No, AGS000 is separate from Hearts & Arrows. Here's an excerpt from the page here (http://www.abazias.com/DiamondEducation/articles/Hearts-and-Arrows-Defined.asp):
AGS, American Gemological Society, has a diamond grading for super ideal cut known as AGS"000"or Triple 0. Many mistakenly believe that this automatically indicates that a diamond is a hearts and arrows diamond. This is not the case, however, as AGS does not look for the hearts and arrows patterning, but simply gives a grade of 0 in three categories: cut, polish, symmetry. This indicates perfection in all three of these categories for a particular diamond.

Unless the stone was sold to you as H&A and you have the H&A image to prove it, it's not classified as a H&A. I think the H&A is purely a mind thing for people who want "the best of the best of the best" but there's not much difference in visual performance between H&A and lots of other ideally cut stones.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Hearts and arrows stones are the top of the AGS ideal cuts or GIA excellents and they have the most optimal, precise cutting. You'd know for sure if you had one, because a vendor can charge more for them. Therefore, they would have sold it as one!

 

[yssie]

Hearts and arrows stones are the top of the AGS ideal cuts or GIA excellents and they have the most optimal, precise cutting. You'd know for sure if you had one, because a vendor can charge more for them. Therefore, they would have sold it as one!

That

A report may have H&A in the comments - this merely tells you that someone somewhere had the characters 'H', '&', 'A' inscribed on the stone's girdle. The reporting authority (GIA/AGSL) isn't endorsing the claim. In fact they aren't even suggesting that it means anything related to optical symmetry - it could stand for "Harry and Alice" for all they care...

 

[yssie]

04diamond - my response to you in another thread last month re. the labs and H&A:

Wow! Just wanted to stop in and say that's a beauty.

May I ask how you got your first pic to display the arrows so nicely? The 2.6 isn't a true Hearts and Arrows is it?

Thanks. According to James Allen it is a True Hearts and Arrows diamond where I first spotted it. But according to Yssie and DS, I don't think it is a hearts and arrows diamond. I believe you can still see arrows in diamonds that don't have hearts or perfect hearts. Hearts is a side affect of perfect symmetry I think.

I'd really take advice on here with a grain of salt because they're just opinions. Unless they tell you they're experts like Karl and Rhino who have such info on their signatures, they're just like the rest of us and have just made more posts than some of us, but that doesn't make them experts. The way to tell if your stone is H&A is if the certificate says it is. Personally, I trust what JA says more than anyone on this site (other than gemologists like Karl etc). Just because it isn't AGS graded with the premium of that type of stone doesn't mean it's not a hearts and arrows stone. Not saying this to be offensive, but I'd really stick to what gemologists and certificates say.

AGSL grading has nothing to do with H&A - neither GIA nor AGSL considers optical symmetry in cut grading at all, and neither says anything about it on the report. HRD has a H&A report and they've published the requirements. EGL USA also has a H&A report but I think most, including tradepeople, would advise caution and real-world confirmation.

H&A is not a matter of opinion - it either is, by a given definition, or it isn't. I don't claim to be an expert but I am confident that this stone is not by WF's definition, which is why I said that sans disclaimers. That does NOT mean that it's not a beautiful stone or that it's not a good choice for Pink - my own stone is a "near-H&A" and I adore it, and have confirmed that to my eyes the fact that it doesn't exhibit perfect radial optical symmetry has no real-world effect on light return in any type of lighting.


Pink You sound like you love it IRL but you're still looking for reasons not to... if having the ACA that MGR noted in your other thread shipped out isn't an option, is there a Jared anywhere near you? If so I'd recommend taking it in and comparing it with some Hearts on Fire stones - hopefully they have a couple that are a bit closer in size than your ACA. I do think it's important that you get an opportunity to compare IRL - not because I think you'll veto it once you do or anything, but because I think when you're spending 20k it's really important that you reassure yourself of how much you love it - make it "mind clean" as well as "eye clean"!


Edited. Don't care for the wrath of the PS grammarians, probably still missed a few but I tried

 

[ecf8503]

Just dbl checked my AGS cert no mention of HA

Unless I'm wrong, I believe an AGS 0 stone is a hearts and arrows stone. are you not confident in your stone? Where'd you get it from? Do you have a picture or an ideal scope image? Does your certificate have an aset on it?

No, AGS000 is separate from Hearts & Arrows. Here's an excerpt from the page here (http://www.abazias.com/DiamondEducation/articles/Hearts-and-Arrows-Defined.asp):
AGS, American Gemological Society, has a diamond grading for super ideal cut known as AGS"000"or Triple 0. Many mistakenly believe that this automatically indicates that a diamond is a hearts and arrows diamond. This is not the case, however, as AGS does not look for the hearts and arrows patterning, but simply gives a grade of 0 in three categories: cut, polish, symmetry. This indicates perfection in all three of these categories for a particular diamond.

Unless the stone was sold to you as H&A and you have the H&A image to prove it, it's not classified as a H&A. I think the H&A is purely a mind thing for people who want "the best of the best of the best" but there's not much difference in visual performance between H&A and lots of other ideally cut stones.

THIS. AGS 000 does NOT mean perfect H&A.

And H&A is a variable scale - some will call it H&A if it even resembles H&A, others (like WF ACA's) won't say it unless every single facet is perfect, every sliver of every heart is the same, etc.

 

[dudeinlove]

Hearts and arrows stones are the top of the AGS ideal cuts or GIA excellents and they have the most optimal, precise cutting. You'd know for sure if you had one, because a vendor can charge more for them. Therefore, they would have sold it as one!

That

A report may have H&A in the comments - this merely tells you that someone somewhere had the characters 'H', '&', 'A' inscribed on the stone's girdle. The reporting authority (GIA/AGSL) isn't endorsing the claim. In fact they aren't even suggesting that it means anything related to optical symmetry - it could stand for "Harry and Alice" for all they care...

The thing is my vendor does state ANY diamonds as H and A. I am very pleased with my stone, I was just curious if there is a chance it's HA. I understand that a small percentage of AGS000 have good HA patterning even if the weren't marketed or specifically cut for it.

The its an AGS000 G SI1 from Ritani.

I'll post the image from the cert.

 

[dudeinlove]

here it is

 

[jmarshall]

here it is

Symmetry doesn't look good enough for it to be called a H&A

 

[new4diamond]

here it is

Symmetry doesn't look good enough for it to be called a H&A

That is a AGSL lab report showing a computer generated light performance image...not H&A. Does not say you have or have not.

There is a article/paper written by I think Brian Gavin and another written by HRD lab that defines what is and what is not a H&A, there may be many others....I don't know if there is any specific industry standard for H&A's, maybe one of the experts on here can chime in.

I think it is accepted that if a known vender such as WF, BGD, GOG, etc calls it and show various images.

 

[SMC]

Hearts and arrows stones are the top of the AGS ideal cuts or GIA excellents and they have the most optimal, precise cutting. You'd know for sure if you had one, because a vendor can charge more for them. Therefore, they would have sold it as one!

That

A report may have H&A in the comments - this merely tells you that someone somewhere had the characters 'H', '&', 'A' inscribed on the stone's girdle. The reporting authority (GIA/AGSL) isn't endorsing the claim. In fact they aren't even suggesting that it means anything related to optical symmetry - it could stand for "Harry and Alice" for all they care...

The thing is my vendor does state ANY diamonds as H and A. I am very pleased with my stone, I was just curious if there is a chance it's HA. I understand that a small percentage of AGS000 have good HA patterning even if the weren't marketed or specifically cut for it.

The its an AGS000 G SI1 from Ritani.

I'll post the image from the cert.

If you see the arrows, then there should be some form of hearts in between those arrows. However, that doesn't mean that it matches up to the stringent H&A criteria that are set by vendors of H&A diamonds. If your jeweler doesn't state any diamonds as H&A, they probably just don't carry them. Lots of jewelers have H&A viewers. If the stone isn't set yet, you can see if you can get an image of it using one of those viewers.

Like others have mentioned, H&A commands a premium. If the stone met H&A criteria, the jeweler would have sold it as such.