Hearts and Arrows question for the experts

[ajm1980]

I have a question about hearts and arrows. I understand that a true Hearts and Arrows diamond should have a pattern that is very symmetrical and all the hearts, arrows, v''s, etc. are the same size, spacing, etc. My question is, if a diamond clearly show''s hearts and arrows but the pattern is not perfectly symmetrical, does this mean it still has a good chance of being very brilliant, just not as good of a chance as if the pattern was perfect? Or is a hearts and arrows pattern that isn''t perfectly symmetrical more or less meaningless? I do understand that Hearts and arrows isn''t the only way to measure brilliance. If I had two same size and quality diamonds, and one didn''t show hearts and arrows and one did but the pattern wasn''t symmetrical, is there a better chance of the latter being more brilliant even though the pattern isn''t perfect?

Thanks.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 11/5/2009 11:15:44 AM
Author:ajm1980
I have a question about hearts and arrows. I understand that a true Hearts and Arrows diamond should have a pattern that is very symmetrical and all the hearts, arrows, v's, etc. are the same size, spacing, etc. My question is, if a diamond clearly show's hearts and arrows but the pattern is not perfectly symmetrical, does this mean it still has a good chance of being very brilliant, just not as good of a chance as if the pattern was perfect? Or is a hearts and arrows pattern that isn't perfectly symmetrical more or less meaningless? I do understand that Hearts and arrows isn't the only way to measure brilliance. If I had two same size and quality diamonds, and one didn't show hearts and arrows and one did but the pattern wasn't symmetrical, is there a better chance of the latter being more brilliant even though the pattern isn't perfect?

Thanks.

Yes, such a diamond can still be very beautiful. H&A is the result of top optical symmetry ( the study of the precision patterning of the virtual facets, not the same as lab graded symmetry), the branded h&a we see here also have top proportions which drive the light return so you get the best of both worlds from such diamonds. Therefore you can get diamonds with good optical symmetry which display a crisp h&a pattern with not such effective proportions and you can find diamonds with excellent proportions with not so great optical symmetry/ h&a patterning.

In a nutshell. If you want the best of both worlds, look at the branded h&a diamonds, also some non h&a with excellent proportions can show a ' near' h&a pattern which can be great choices too. As long as the proportions are effective in all cases you can go for a diamond with more haphazard optical symmetry and still have a gorgeous stone.

 

[Todd Gray]

Most round brilliant cut diamonds will exhibit some sort of pattern of hearts and arrows simply because the pattern is a reflection of the facet structure of a round brilliant cut diamond... The "hearts" are a skewed reflection of the kite shaped bezel facets which appear on the upper half of the diamond and the "arrows" are a skewed reflection of the eight pointed star created by the pavilion main facets located on the under side of the diamond, as viewed from the opposite sides of the stone through a viewer which magnifies the pattern by about 3x and a colored piece of filament which diffuses the light to allow the pattern to be seen...

Which diamond will be more lively has a lot to do with the proportions of the diamonds being compared; the precision of facet alignment; the symmetry of facet shape and size per section; the overall combination of the crown / pavilion angle and how that combination offsets the two halves.

 

[yssie]

My newbie explanation:

H&A (assuming optimal physical symmetry) will get you not only brilliance and fire, but equality of brilliance and fire through the spectrum, as much as a diamond can have - there is a reason that HoF tells you that its diamonds show every colour of the spectrum, this is what any true H&A does.

Non-H&A (assuming physical symmetry permits good contrast/scintillation) may well be both bright and fiery, but it will not have that equality through either the spectrum or around the diamond itself that a H&A will.

A great thread - it's a long read but very much worth it if you're interested in what H&A really means: https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/how-significant-are-the-star-facets-and-lower-girdles-info.31985/

 

[ajm1980]

Yssie,

Thanks for the link. In that link on the first page, JohnQuixote shows some examples of "near-true" hearts and arrows pattern and "true" hearts and arrows pattern. I guess my question would be, should a diamond that has a "near-true" pattern be given special attention and considered over another similar diamond (size, color, etc.) that doesn''t show hearts and arrows or shows a much worse pattern? Right now i''m hearing that either a diamond is Hearts and Arrows or it isn''t, and for it to be Hearts and Arrows, the pattern has to be perfect. But i''m also hearing talk of folks wanting to start grading hearts and arrows......so if that were to happen, would a "low-end" hearts and arrows diamond that has a good, clear, but still imperfect pattern (not all hearts same size, split in heart cleft, etc.) be considered better than a similar non hearts and arrows diamond, or would it at least warrant extra consideration when purchasing?

 

[John P]

Date: 11/6/2009 9:00:29 AM
Author: ajm1980
Yssie,

Thanks for the link. In that link on the first page, JohnQuixote shows some examples of 'near-true' hearts and arrows pattern and 'true' hearts and arrows pattern. I guess my question would be, should a diamond that has a 'near-true' pattern be given special attention and considered over another similar diamond (size, color, etc.) that doesn't show hearts and arrows or shows a much worse pattern? Right now i'm hearing that either a diamond is Hearts and Arrows or it isn't, and for it to be Hearts and Arrows, the pattern has to be perfect. But i'm also hearing talk of folks wanting to start grading hearts and arrows......so if that were to happen, would a 'low-end' hearts and arrows diamond that has a good, clear, but still imperfect pattern (not all hearts same size, split in heart cleft, etc.) be considered better than a similar non hearts and arrows diamond, or would it at least warrant extra consideration when purchasing?

Existing H&A grading systems are based on Cut Precision, not Cut Performance. Discussions often get muddied when people don't separate the two areas.

Cut performance is all about primary measurements and consistency, not necessarily about H&A: A non-H&A with fantastic angles can have top performance without being optically symmetrical. A near-H&A with the same angles will have top performance with the qualities of sharp contrast and crisp scintillation associated with top optical symmetry (if near-enough). The most precise H&A diamonds will have that same look IFF they have great primary measurements - always the most important thing. Whether a non, near or precise H&A (all top performers) will have visibly different looks depends on the specific diamonds compared, the lighting and the observer him/herself.

Cut Precision is a measure of the diamond's 3D optical symmetry ("H&A" in rounds). Simply put, it's how precisely the cutter aligned the diamond's facets (mirrors) opposite each other. When comparing "near" and "true" H&A this can be like comparing VS to VVS or FL clarity: The minute differences may not be detectable without magnification or special views. Precision enthusiasts seeking the highest level of H&A often place value on man's ability to take the world's hardest substance and fashion it to the highest pinnacle of human craftsmanship.

Hope this is helpful.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 11/5/2009 3:16:09 PM
Author: yssie
My newbie explanation:


H&A (assuming optimal physical symmetry) will get you not only brilliance and fire, but equality of brilliance and fire through the spectrum, as much as a diamond can have - there is a reason that HoF tells you that its diamonds show every colour of the spectrum, this is what any true H&A does. SAYS WHO? I AM SORRY BUT THERE IS NO EVIDENCE I HAVE EVER SEEN OR HEARD FOR THAT


Non-H&A (assuming physical symmetry permits good contrast/scintillation) may well be both bright and fiery, but it will not have that equality through either the spectrum or around the diamond itself that a H&A will. DITTO - HOW DID YOU EVER COME TO THAT REALIZATION SINCE YOU CAN HAVE HEARTS AND ARROWS ACROSS A VERY WIDE RANGE OF PROPORTIONS


A great thread - it's a long read but very much worth it if you're interested in what H&A really means: https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/how-significant-are-the-star-facets-and-lower-girdles-info.31985/

 

[yssie]

Ah, it's very possible my newbie explanation is totally off.

Thanks for the correction, Garry, I need to keep it zipped sometimes

ETA: though I maintain that thread is a fascinating read for so many reasons

 

[John P]

Date: 11/6/2009 3:26:33 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Date: 11/5/2009 3:16:09 PM
Author: yssie
My newbie explanation:

H&A (assuming optimal physical symmetry) will get you not only brilliance and fire, but equality of brilliance and fire through the spectrum, as much as a diamond can have - there is a reason that HoF tells you that its diamonds show every colour of the spectrum, this is what any true H&A does. SAYS WHO? I AM SORRY BUT THERE IS NO EVIDENCE I HAVE EVER SEEN OR HEARD FOR THAT

That claim has been heard & discussed here before.

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/hearts-on-fire-only-cut-that-shows-full-rainbow-of-colors.118003/
https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/hi-there-starting-to-doubt-myself-need-input.121201/

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 11/6/2009 5:30:22 PM
Author: John Pollard

Date: 11/6/2009 3:26:33 PM

Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Date: 11/5/2009 3:16:09 PM

Author: yssie

My newbie explanation:


H&A (assuming optimal physical symmetry) will get you not only brilliance and fire, but equality of brilliance and fire through the spectrum, as much as a diamond can have - there is a reason that HoF tells you that its diamonds show every colour of the spectrum, this is what any true H&A does. SAYS WHO? I AM SORRY BUT THERE IS NO EVIDENCE I HAVE EVER SEEN OR HEARD FOR THAT

That claim has been heard & discussed here before.


https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/hearts-on-fire-only-cut-that-shows-full-rainbow-of-colors.118003/

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/hi-there-starting-to-doubt-myself-need-input.121201/

Date: 11/6/2009 5:30:22 PM
Author: John Pollard

Date: 11/6/2009 3:26:33 PM

Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Date: 11/5/2009 3:16:09 PM

Author: yssie

My newbie explanation:


H&A (assuming optimal physical symmetry) will get you not only brilliance and fire, but equality of brilliance and fire through the spectrum, as much as a diamond can have - there is a reason that HoF tells you that its diamonds show every colour of the spectrum, this is what any true H&A does. SAYS WHO? I AM SORRY BUT THERE IS NO EVIDENCE I HAVE EVER SEEN OR HEARD FOR THAT

That claim has been heard & discussed here before.


https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/hearts-on-fire-only-cut-that-shows-full-rainbow-of-colors.118003/

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/hi-there-starting-to-doubt-myself-need-input.121201/

Thanks for the HoF link John - I missed that.
BTW sorry for shouting - changed to firefox and need users lessons.
regarding some of the erronous comments about dispersion and what colors predominate and why - here again is a link (because that thread is closed) and I hope Rhino and others will read it and study so they understand the issues.
BTW green is rare and hard to see.
http://www.cutstudy.com/cut/english/grading1/
and i will try to post it as a live link too
live link

 

[ajm1980]

ok having read all those posts, here''s the diamond I am considering....

Round Brilliant 6.92x6.96x4.23mm

1.27CT, F, VS2

Depth 60.9%
Table 58%
Crown angle 35.5 degrees
Crown height 15%
pavillion angle 40.2%
Pavillion depth 42%
Star length 55%
Lower half 75%
Medium to slightly thick girdle (4%)
No fluorescence

The stone is not certified but it is being offered to me by a relative in the business who I do trust. The grading is his estimate and he provided the measurements based on a Sarin he did. He called the stone a hearts and arrows cut, and i''ve seen it through a refractor scope and while it does have a clear hearts and arrows pattern, the hearts are not all the exact same size and they do have a small split in the cleft, and likewise the pattern spacing is a bit off. To me the stone looks great. It is being offered to me for $5,200. What do you think?

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 11/10/2009 6:48:36 PM
Author: ajm1980
ok having read all those posts, here''s the diamond I am considering....


Round Brilliant 6.92x6.96x4.23mm


1.27CT, F, VS2


Depth 60.9%

Table 58%

Crown angle 35.5 degrees

Crown height 15%

pavillion angle 40.2%

Pavillion depth 42%

Star length 55%

Lower half 75%

Medium to slightly thick girdle (4%)

No fluorescence


The stone is not certified but it is being offered to me by a relative in the business who I do trust. The grading is his estimate and he provided the measurements based on a Sarin he did. He called the stone a hearts and arrows cut, and i''ve seen it through a refractor scope and while it does have a clear hearts and arrows pattern, the hearts are not all the exact same size and they do have a small split in the cleft, and likewise the pattern spacing is a bit off. To me the stone looks great. It is being offered to me for $5,200. What do you think?

You really should have this in your own thread.
But firstly - the Sarin data is in GIA cut grade format and makes me suspect the possability that the stone does have a GIA grade. Secondly it is strange with that lower girdle proportion set that the hearts have a cleft - but that proportion set can have H&A''s.
Finally this is a slightly shallow stone that could appear a little dark in the table when viewed from very close up - I would do that test.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 11/10/2009 6:48:36 PM
Author: ajm1980
ok having read all those posts, here''s the diamond I am considering....

Round Brilliant 6.92x6.96x4.23mm

1.27CT, F, VS2

Depth 60.9%
Table 58%
Crown angle 35.5 degrees
Crown height 15%
pavillion angle 40.2%
Pavillion depth 42%
Star length 55%
Lower half 75%
Medium to slightly thick girdle (4%)
No fluorescence

The stone is not certified but it is being offered to me by a relative in the business who I do trust. The grading is his estimate and he provided the measurements based on a Sarin he did. He called the stone a hearts and arrows cut, and i''ve seen it through a refractor scope and while it does have a clear hearts and arrows pattern, the hearts are not all the exact same size and they do have a small split in the cleft, and likewise the pattern spacing is a bit off. To me the stone looks great. It is being offered to me for $5,200. What do you think?

what do i think??....1.27ct F VS2??

i''ll bet my underwear that this stone AIN''T gonna grade F VS2 by GIA nor AGS. at least not for that price.

 

[ajm1980]

You are right, sorry i''m a bit new to this and I should have started a new thread. I''ve seen the stone and it doesn''t appear to me to face up darker when compared to other similar ones. I think based on everything i''ll go for it. I asked about the format of the data and my uncle (the person i''m getting the stone from) said he always uses that format if a customer requests the data because he typically deals in GIA stones and its the format most people are familiar with. He did confirm again that it is not certified. Maybe that is why the price is so good. Regardless, I do trust him and i''m happy with the stone, I think it looks spectacular.

Thanks for all your help. Maybe in the future I will take it to GIA to get graded, that would be interesting.

 

[tonyc2387]

ahem... I think the help you got in this thread was excellent. Sounds like a great stone and all, and even scores a 1 on HCA. But let's do a quick search...

1.24 F VS1, HCA 1.5 H&A ... $10455
1.31 F VS1 HCA 1.6 H&A ... $12050
1.22 G VS1 HCA 1.5 H&A ... $9340
1.212 H VS1 HCA 1.5 NOT H&A ... $8200

uh huh. now...

1.268 J SI1 HCA 1.1 NON H&A ... $5251
1.27 I SI1 HCA 1.4 H&A ... $6300
1.22 I SI2 HCA 1 H&A ... $5000

I know he's your uncle and all, and trust him all you want... but the numbers depict a much different reality.

i'll bet my underwear that this stone AIN'T gonna grade F VS2 by GIA nor AGS. at least not for that price.

pretty strong bet by someone who's been around the block. i'd strongly take this into consideration...

ETA: if you've seen the stone and are happy with color & clarity, then that's perfectly fine... your preference, your choice and all that. however, if having I-J color and SI clarity isn't "mind clean" to you... then i'd examine more carefully. perhaps at least get it looked at by a good & independent appraiser?

ETA2: for the record, I want nothing more than for you to get it graded and it come back F VS2... you'd simultaneously prove everyone here wrong and get a freaking fantastic deal on a great rock. the latter part is what we all care about, and the former is a pretty nice bonus

 

[denverappraiser]

Date: 11/11/2009 9:54:51 AM
Author: ajm1980
You are right, sorry i''m a bit new to this and I should have started a new thread. I''ve seen the stone and it doesn''t appear to me to face up darker when compared to other similar ones. I think based on everything i''ll go for it. I asked about the format of the data and my uncle (the person i''m getting the stone from) said he always uses that format if a customer requests the data because he typically deals in GIA stones and its the format most people are familiar with. He did confirm again that it is not certified. Maybe that is why the price is so good. Regardless, I do trust him and i''m happy with the stone, I think it looks spectacular.


Thanks for all your help. Maybe in the future I will take it to GIA to get graded, that would be interesting.

I suppose it will depend on how important the grading is to you as well as how important your relationship with your uncle is. GIA strikes me as cheap and fast insurance to avoid a future family problem. They’ll grade it for $81. If you do it soon and as a part of due diligence as a shopper you can avoid the family problems later, if you never get it checked out you can get along happily with your life and never worry about it. You''re happy with your purchase and the stone looks spectacular ... that''s not a bad definition of success. The losing scenario is to do it someday in the future because it might be interesting. Do it NOW or be happy with what you’ve got.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 11/11/2009 11:35:01 AM
Author: denverappraiser

Date: 11/11/2009 9:54:51 AM
Author: ajm1980
You are right, sorry i''m a bit new to this and I should have started a new thread. I''ve seen the stone and it doesn''t appear to me to face up darker when compared to other similar ones. I think based on everything i''ll go for it. I asked about the format of the data and my uncle (the person i''m getting the stone from) said he always uses that format if a customer requests the data because he typically deals in GIA stones and its the format most people are familiar with. He did confirm again that it is not certified. Maybe that is why the price is so good. Regardless, I do trust him and i''m happy with the stone, I think it looks spectacular.


Thanks for all your help. Maybe in the future I will take it to GIA to get graded, that would be interesting.

I suppose it will depend on how important the grading is to you as well as how important your relationship with your uncle is. GIA strikes me as cheap and fast insurance to avoid a future family problem. They’ll grade it for $81. If you do it soon and as a part of due diligence as a shopper you can avoid the family problems later, if you never get it checked out you can get along happily with your life and never worry about it. You''re happy with your purchase and the stone looks spectacular ... that''s not a bad definition of success. The losing scenario is to do it someday in the future because it might be interesting. Do it NOW or be happy with what you’ve got.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

yeah, like shooting the uncle

after finding out the stone was over graded.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 11/11/2009 11:02:29 AM
Author: tonyc2387

ETA2: for the record, I want nothing more than for you to get it graded and it come back F VS2... you''d simultaneously prove everyone here wrong and get a freaking fantastic deal on a great rock. the latter part is what we all care about, and the former is a pretty nice bonus

he has a better chance of hitting the lottery.

 

[Abril]

Does anyone else picture DF looking like this?

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 11/12/2009 1:22:16 AM
Author: Abril
Does anyone else picture DF looking like this?

yup, that''s him !!

 

[ajm1980]

So I was so anxious that I paid 200 for gia same day grading yesterday and here''s the verdict. They graded it an H color vs2 excellent cut and even the plot was accurate and only showed the two small feathers he observed and showed me under magnification. So the color was off it wasn''t an f but its beautiful and faces up fantastic. So I paid 5200 and comparable stones on pricescope are going for 6200 so I did good. Guess I got lucky and got a good deal by taking a chance on an ungraded stone. So I don''t have to shoot my uncle. By the way I had the stone set so ill post some pics. The pics aren''t very clear but I did get a shot of the (imperfect) hearts and arrows .

 

[stone-cold11]

Congrats.

Good luck for the next step.

 

[tonyc2387]

Date: 11/13/2009 7:30:00 PM
Author: ajm1980
Guess I got lucky and got a good deal by taking a chance on an ungraded stone.

congrats! that's awesome! can't wait to see pics...

Author: Dancing Fire
he has a better chance of hitting the lottery.

guess you better go grab a lottery ticket, ajm1980!

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 11/13/2009 7:30:00 PM
Author: ajm1980
So I was so anxious that I paid 200 for gia same day grading yesterday and here''s the verdict. They graded it an H color vs2 excellent cut and even the plot was accurate and only showed the two small feathers he observed and showed me under magnification. So the color was off it wasn''t an f but its beautiful and faces up fantastic. So I paid 5200 and comparable stones on pricescope are going for 6200 so I did good. Guess I got lucky and got a good deal by taking a chance on an ungraded stone. So I don''t have to shoot my uncle. By the way I had the stone set so ill post some pics. The pics aren''t very clear but I did get a shot of the (imperfect) hearts and arrows .

A fair outcome. But F to H is a bit of a difference from a grading perspective.

 

[ajm1980]

agreed, H is a big difference from F but all and all still a good deal. Plus, I knew my uncle isn''t a GIA certified gemologist so I expected something to be off.

 

[ajm1980]

completed ring pic

 

[ajm1980]

"almost" Hearts and Arrows" pic.

 

[ajm1980]

You are right Gary, H color is far from an F, but I knew my uncle was not a GIA certified gemologist, and i expected something to be off. But all in all i''m happy and still a good deal I think.

 

[miraclesrule]

Beautiful ring!! And you did very well. You got a good price for your ring, you got the peace of mind of knowing what you have, and you still have a great relationship with your uncle.

Now, you just need to get some HANDSHOTS!!!!

 

[ajm1980]

I''ll be proposing Dec. 12 so i''ll post some better pics then!