HCA Contradicts Father-in-Law!!! Help!!!

[BeachJenny76]

Hi everyone,

My FH''s father is a jeweler so we went to him to look for a diamond. I wanted to shop around and look elsewhere but my FH didn''t want to insult his father and said he would give him a great deal. We went into his father''s store a few days ago and looked at this one diamond in particular that looked nice under their lights. It is a 1.7 ct round, I, SI1 graded by EGL USA. I wrote down the info from the cert and came home to try and do some research. I plugged the info into HCA and saw that it got a 5.0!!!

I would like to get it appraised but if my FH''s father finds out he''s going to be very insulted so I''m sort of relying on the HCA and you guys. All he says is that he would never show us anything that wasn''t absolutely beautiful but this HCA score has me very worried.

Here are the proportions that are on the cert:

Measurements: 7.57 - 7.49 x 4.78 mm
Depth: 63.4%
Table: 58%
Crown: 15% (35.7 angle)
Pavilion: 43.9% (41.4 angle)
Polish: Very Good
Symmetry: Very Good

Light Return: Good
Fire: Fair
Scintillation: Good
Spread: Good
HCA Score: 5

Also, it says that the Girdle is 2.3% - 3.2%. What does this mean? The total depth is listed at 63.4% but doesn''t the total depth equal the table plus crown plus girdle?

I don''t know what to doooo....

 

[strmrdr]

classic steep/deep bleck

 

[Imdanny]

Oh noes!

 

[whatmeworry]

Well HCA aside, you said it looked nice. If you still have doubts just say it's beautiful but it's not quite right for me. Chalk it up to your quirkiness and not the diamond which he picked out. Can you ask him to bring in more stones? Maybe you can educate him about HCA and proportion grading and grading by different labs? If he's up to it, it could turn out to be a fun thing where both of you can call in stones to look at.

edited to add: How does he feel about buying diamonds over the internet? Could be a clue.

 

[honey22]

I''m not usually one to stir the pot, but I would think that his father would appreciate the beauty of a finely cut stone, and could easily understand your desire to have one. I understand not wanting to insult him, but can you swing things around so he feels like he is helping you, when really you are guiding him (you know, how we do that to men lol!!

).

Maybe you could angle it this way - well, as you would understand, I want the best cut possible, so we would appreciate it if you could work some magic and bring in some stones with the following stats (will find those later) and you could help us pick an amazing one. Make him feel like he is doing something special, flattery will get you everywhere.

If that fails and he still is a no go, just explain to him that yes, the stone is beautiful (not really likely), but you would like something stunning. When it comes down to it, this is your ering that you will have to wear forever, I am sure your future father in law is adult enough to handle the truth. If not, maybe we can help with something from an online vendor and he can set the stone?! This is not about making him happy, it''s about getting you the rock that you dream of.

Good luck!!!

 

[whatmeworry]

Just a wild thought. Say you are really superstitious and into numerology and you have to check the numbers to see if it will bring good luck.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

You have a real problem.

Get you FIL to contact me and I will talk to him if it will help?

 

[Cleo]

*hugs*

Oh, what a shame - I really feel for you.

You are in a difficult position with having to balance keeping futire FIL happy, and with obtaining a truly incredible diamond that you will be happy with.

Clearly you need to give that particular diamond a really wide berth. It is not something most PSers would buy under any circumstances, as I''m sure you realised when you saw the HCA score.

The other posters have given you some great ideas on declining that particular stone in a diplomatic way.

Do you think that your future FIL is concentrating on getting the biggest size for the money, rather than the best cut?

If there is any possible way you can introduce him to the HCA without causing offense, then that would certanly help to avoid having to decline any more unsuitable stones in the future - but I can see that it might just not be possible.

The idea of giving him a range of angles & proportions to work within is a very good one and would help to narrow down your selection range to better cut diamonds.

I hope that you are able to find a way to work together to find your perfect diamond.

x x x

 

[arjunajane]

I have to say, with zero offence intended to you Jenny, but this situation must be many PS''ers worst nightmare!

Admittedly you''re in an uncomfortable situation, but as long as every body realizes this is supposed to be your ring hopefully you can get it figured out..
Have you showed your Fi what you learnt about the stone and the HCA? Does he and your FFIL understand the importance of cut?

Its unfortunate, but I''m sure its completely possible there are tons of jewellers out there who go their whole careers without learning half as much as many Ps''ers..I''m by no means saying that this is your FIL, however I think the suggestion of making efforts to ''learn" about diamonds with him, and hence find out about his priorities/knowledge, sounds like a good plan..I hope you find your perfect diamond!

 

[BeachJenny76]

Wow, thank you everyone for your support and advice!!!

The thing is, I''m relatively new to diamonds so in person the diamond looks really nice but I have no idea if it is just the lighting they have there or I''m not really able to see what''s wrong with the diamond. I would have had no inhibitions about getting that diamond until I saw the HCA, so my question really is if the HCA score is THAT bad and the proportions are THAT bad that none of you would buy the diamond under any circumstances.

I actually liked it in person and with all the support it got from my FIL and FH I was ready to take the plunge until I saw the HCA score. So, how poor quality is it really?

Does the HCA score mean that it is not a great diamond on the inside, or that it won''t sparkle or look white on my finger while I''m wearing it?

Thank you... I can already see you guys are the best!

 

[Ellen]

Date: 3/28/2008 8:19:55 AM
Author: BeachJenny76
Wow, thank you everyone for your support and advice!!!

The thing is, I''m relatively new to diamonds so in person the diamond looks really nice but I have no idea if it is just the lighting they have there or I''m not really able to see what''s wrong with the diamond. I would have had no inhibitions about getting that diamond until I saw the HCA, so my question really is if the HCA score is THAT bad and the proportions are THAT bad that none of you would buy the diamond under any circumstances.

I actually liked it in person and with all the support it got from my FIL and FH I was ready to take the plunge until I saw the HCA score. So, how poor quality is it really?

Does the HCA score mean that it is not a great diamond on the inside, or that it won''t sparkle or look white on my finger while I''m wearing it?

Thank you... I can already see you guys are the best!

Jewelers lights can make almost any diamond look nice.

Do a search on here for "steep/deep", and you will get lots of threads that can help you understand what that really means.

In my opinion, yes, this really is a badly cut/proportioned diamond. The angles are terribly deep, and the stone itself is too deep. Once you got it away from the store lighting, in lots of different environments and lighting situations, it would not be nearly as pretty as a well cut stone. You can definitely do better, but HOW to go about that, I honestly don''t know. You are in a real pickle here.

 

[Cleo]

I''m sure you will get answers from people with more experience than myself.. but... if you want a stone that looks amaaaaaaazing under the majority of lighting conditions then go for one which scores between 1 and 2 (as a rough guide) on the HCA.

Honestly, most things look great under jewellers light - but don''t necessarily look that great in daylight, low light, or all sorts of other places. This particular diamond might well leak a lot of light, so actually look dark in some areas - whereas a really well-cut stone has exceptional light return and can blaze white light back at you, even in quite low lighting.

The whole purpose of the HCA is to allow you to weed out stones which don''t perform so well - which is exactly what you''ve done here. You''ve identified that this stone is not as well cut as it could be, and is therefore unlikely to dazzle you as well as a really well cut diamond would under the majority of lightling conditions. For me (and for most PSers) this is enough reason not to choose this stone.

THe HCA score gives you a really good idea of the light performance of the stone: the light return, fire and scintillation which it will display.. all of which are what make up the beauty of a diamond.

To answer your question, no it won''t look as good when you are wearing it. Personally, I would much rather have a smaller diamond with a truly amazing cut. A better cut diamond will dazzle you far more, and can actually look bigger than a poorly cut stone of greater carat weight!

x x x

 

[Fly Girl]

Jenny - I have a well-cut 60/60 style diamond (not ideal cut) that scores about 2.6 on the HCA. I have looked at diamonds that were 5 on the HCA, and they are not nearly as sparkly. An ideal cut diamond is even more sparkly than mine.

You CAN tell the difference once you have a chance to compare different cuts. There are more beautiful diamonds available. I certainly hope you can figure out a way to get one.

I would not want that diamond that you were shown.

Good luck.

 

[whatmeworry]

Well check it out under other lighting conditions (diffused daylight, fluorescence lighting). Get second, third, fourth opinions from other people if you''re still not sure. Compare it to other diamonds (Hearts on Fire, Lazarre Kaplan, Tiffany). Your FH''s father should let you take it out for a test drive.

HCA is Garry''s opinion of cut quality. If it makes you feel better, it looks like it could be a GIA Excellent (another opinion). Re-reading your post, getting an independent appraiser''s opinion sounds like a good idea. To make you feel even better, here''s a video where average people compared a "steep-deep"/lousy HCA score with other diamonds. Just remember of all the opinions out there, HCA, GIA, appraiser, your FH, your FH''s father, it''s yours that counts the most. If it looks beautiful to you, be happy. What everyone else thinks shouldn''t matter.

 

[Lorelei]

I don''t know if this would help...But I was thinking if you could broach the subject with your FIL and mention that you have seen some AGS0 diamonds and love the way they are cut....That you had really set your heart on having one of those, is it possible he could call a couple in for you to see, or work with you to find one with similar proportions...

 

[Dreamer_D]

Jenny I'm sorry you are in this pickle. I'm going to make a suggestion that is a little different than the advice you have been given. This is your ring, and the decision you make to buy a diamond is a private affair between you and your FFI. If I were in your shoes, I would leave the FFIL out of it and work with my FFI and PS to find a really great diamond. That one he showed you isn't good, and you will be sad later knowing that ss you learn more and see better ones and realize you made a mistake just to make your FFIL happy or keep the peace. You are an adult, you can make your own decisions.

You and your FFI should spend some time looking at the videos of Good Old Gold: http://www.goodoldgold.com/video/ There are three in particular that your should watch: "An assessment of brightness", "An assessment of fire" and "The nature of scintillation". In the videos, Jon compares Good and Ideal cuts, and even Very Good and Ideals in DIFFERENT LIGHTING CONDITIONS and to me the difference was really obvious. I even showed it to some of my friends who think "A diamond is a diamond, right??" and they were amazed and sold on the importance of cut. There is also a video called "Is a larger diamond of a lower cut quality more brilliant or as brilliant as a smaller diamond with a higher cut quality?" that is really good too.

You will learn so much and if after watching those videos you still aren't convinced about the importance of cut, then buy the stone your FFIL offered! But if you are like me and are shocked at the difference even between very good and ideal, then go your own way and get the diamond you want. They just show up one day for dinner at your FFIL place and say "Look what I got!" If he gets mad, say, "We really wanted to make the decision by ourselves, and we got a great deal, and isn't it pretty?" Then leave it at that.

DD

 

[denverappraiser]

Date: 3/28/2008 4:29:42 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
You have a real problem.

Get you FIL to contact me and I will talk to him if it will help?

This is good advice. For many jewelers this is all pretty new stuff and you definitely don’t want to put yourself in the position of trying to teach your FIL about cutting and the various ways of evaluating it. I guarantee that it’ll help his business if he gets a grip on the whole modern cut grading thing so you’re even doing him a favor but it’s a very touchy topic. I'm a huge fan of being honest among family members and you are going to have a long term relationship with this fellow so I think you should be straight up about your concerns. Give him a link to this site and perhaps even this thread so that he can see what's worrying you. HCA is just the tip of the iceburg. Even if he ends up deciding that it’s all a bunch of hooey, he will be a better jeweler because of understanding it and it'll be Garry's fault, not yours, that there's confusion.

Look at the stone in a variety of different lighting environments, not just the spotlights over the counters and, if you can, have an AGS graded ‘ideal’ cut stone next to it to compare. Does your FIL’s store carry HoF or any of the other premium brands? Do they have any AGS graded goods (non-EGL) that you can use as a benchmark? In the end, it's what YOU like that matters.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[Ellen]

Date: 3/28/2008 9:14:42 AM
Author: Lorelei
I don't know if this would help...But I was thinking if you could broach the subject with your FIL and mention that you have seen some AGS0 diamonds and love the way they are cut....That you had really set your heart on having one of those, is it possible he could call a couple in for you to see, or work with you to find one with similar proportions...

This is a great idea.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Date: 3/28/2008 9:20:17 AM
Author: Ellen

Date: 3/28/2008 9:14:42 AM
Author: Lorelei
I don''t know if this would help...But I was thinking if you could broach the subject with your FIL and mention that you have seen some AGS0 diamonds and love the way they are cut....That you had really set your heart on having one of those, is it possible he could call a couple in for you to see, or work with you to find one with similar proportions...

This is a great idea.

This is a really great idea and maybe you can have your cake (a nice diamond) and eat it too (keep the peace)!

 

[CrookedRock]

Oh Gezzz! You poor girl... I thought we went through he^l to find a diamond, but man! I am so sorry that you are in this spot. I can''t imagine how difficult this is. I had a hard enough time telling the jeweler I had been using for 12 years that they didn''t know squat about cushions after they tried to sell me 2 EGL''s with a 15k markup! But your FFIL, Bummer!

I think they key here is to get your bf on the same page with you. That way you are a united front when you talk to his dad, and it''s not just you coming off as a brat. Definately show the GOG videos to your bf and make him understand, bc as soon as he gets it, he will want to back you on the issue. Good luck with all this, and please keep us posted!

 

[vespergirl]

Hey there,

I really feel for you in this touchy situation. If I were you, I would discuss with your FH the exact specs that you require and then let HIM express to his dad while you''re shopping together what exactly he is requiring as the minimum diamond specs. In-law situations can be touchy, so it''s better if your FH has the conversation with his dad than you.

That said, you can get a really nice EGL stone, but you have to really check the numbers. My EGL stone scored 1.2 on HCA and is an H&A stone - under the comments section it said that it had "8 hearts & 8 arrows" and when I looked at the diamond through Idealscope, it checked out. Maybe you can ask him to bring in some stones that have "Eight hearts and eight arrows" listed under the comments section, with EX polish and EX symmetry. Also bring in a list of the number specs that you''re interested in, so you can look at certs and automatically decide what you are willing to look at.

Still, though, I would try to have this info come from your FH instead of you, because I don''t know the temperament of your in-laws, but the last thing you want is for your future family to think that you''re high-maintenance or something. I hope that you guys find a great stone!

 

[lovehersomuch]

EGL certified stones arent good.. they grade loosely and have a bad rep... likely not to get appraised for that much.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 3/28/2008 11:07:05 AM
Author: lovehersomuch
EGL certified stones arent good.. they grade loosely and have a bad rep... likely not to get appraised for that much.

There are some of us here with ones that are, that have checked out fine.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I wouldn''t go lower than G color on an EGL diamond, because it might really be H or I.

Here are some measurements to help you to get a well cut stone:

table 54-57

depth 60-62

crown angle 34-35

pavilion angle 40.6-41

girdle thin, medium, slightly thick

 

[Lorelei]

Jenny this might be useful to you to see how the grading labs actually rate from an expert point of view.

http://diamonds.pricescope.com/grading.asp

 

[lisa1.01fvs1]

Date: 3/28/2008 3:29:42 AM
Author:BeachJenny76
Hi everyone,

My FH''s father is a jeweler so we went to him to look for a diamond. I wanted to shop around and look elsewhere but my FH didn''t want to insult his father and said he would give him a great deal. We went into his father''s store a few days ago and looked at this one diamond in particular that looked nice under their lights. It is a 1.7 ct round, I, SI1 graded by EGL USA. I wrote down the info from the cert and came home to try and do some research. I plugged the info into HCA and saw that it got a 5.0!!!

I would like to get it appraised but if my FH''s father finds out he''s going to be very insulted so I''m sort of relying on the HCA and you guys. All he says is that he would never show us anything that wasn''t absolutely beautiful but this HCA score has me very worried.

Here are the proportions that are on the cert:

Measurements: 7.57 - 7.49 x 4.78 mm
Depth: 63.4%
Table: 58%
Crown: 15% (35.7 angle)
Pavilion: 43.9% (41.4 angle)
Polish: Very Good
Symmetry: Very Good

Light Return: Good
Fire: Fair
Scintillation: Good
Spread: Good
HCA Score: 5

Also, it says that the Girdle is 2.3% - 3.2%. What does this mean? The total depth is listed at 63.4% but doesn''t the total depth equal the table plus crown plus girdle?

I don''t know what to doooo....

Hey whatmeworry love the numerology idea - just go asian on FFIL!!!! (more info. follow niceice''s previous posts)

But really, YOU will be wearing it. YOU should love it - bottom line!

You sound very educated already on diamonds so this stone would always irk you.

Definitely get FI in on this and have him deal w/ his dad. He grew up with him and knows best how to go about it. Or go to you FMIL if there is a good relationship there.

Say something like "I like the size but am concerned about the color/inclusions, anything that will get him to show you new stones."

Say you are considering going smaller *gulp* anything to get him off this 1.7.

Let us know how it goes.....

I would want to get the stone that I want. If that means upsetting grandpa then so be it!

Is he a "tough nut?" or a reasonable sort?

 

[MikeRato1]

jenny - my opinion is different from everyone elses

since you are the one who is going to be wearing it, go with what your eyes see. dont be so caught up in the number game.

your in a better position since you can see it and compare it to others in different lighting conditions. i ended up choosing a stone that
scored poorly on the hca but when i compared it to others that scored well it wasnt as bright. so it all depends on you!

good luck

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I agree that it should depend on her eyes, but if they are only giving her a selection of average stones to look at, I don''t see how she is going to come out of this very well.

 

[MikeRato1]

i didnt know they were only giving her average stones to compare it to, or that she couldnt take it elsewhere to compare

 

[swingirl]

Your FIL may very well think this stone is a beauty. It all depends on the type of stones he usually gets in and sells. If this is at the top end of what he sees he IS showing you the best. So it's understandable he would be insulted. Sounds more like a personal issue you have to deal with rather than a diamond issue. You don't want to offend your FIL by telling him the stone he picked is a reject. Does he ever get in an AGS stones? Maybe you could ask to see more...like an AGS ideal cut.

I wonder if this is a stone he has had in stock for a while and would like to put it to use.

By the way, I had a similar situation with my husband's friend who owned a jewelry store. He considered himself a jeweler but had inherited the store from his father, had no formal training, bench experience, or anything. So owning a store doesn't make someone an expert on what they sell.