HCA and Fluor Questions

[BRep]

Hi all. I've been browsing this site feverishly for the past several months and I'm now in the process of purchasing my lady's e-ring from a local distributor (Diamonds Direct). I've narrowed down my stone to a GIA XXX, I-J, SI1-SI2, 1.9-2.2 ct RB.

I spent about 3 hours in the store today and made sure to put specs into my trusty HCA tool. One thing that happened threw me for a bit of a loop. I was looking at a J color, SI1, 2.12 ct stone with faint fluor for around 17.5k that actually looked very nice. The guy helping me was extremely helpful, however when I mentioned HCA, he appeared to be a bit offput. He then said that 'calculators' are outdated because of GIA advancements in technology and that the XXX stone I was looking at was decent even though it scored a 5 on the tool! He also advised that if going for fluor, I should not go any farther than faint. I was actually comfortable going medium or even strong as long as I could confirm no haziness.

At any rate, I'd love to hear some opinions on this dialogue. Should I stick to my guns and not even consider anything over 2 on HCA? And also, would like to hear opinions on whether I should be looking at fluoro to possibly save some cash and face up whiter? Thanks in advance for any help!

 

[foxinsox]

You're doing the right thing by using the HCA - the guy in the shop is just trying to sell you his stock. Keep using the parameters that will find you a well cut stone and ignore him. Always keep in mind the possible motivations of the person telling you something - like no one here has any skin in the game if they recommend a stone or vendor.
Someone trying to sell you something that isn't rating well on an independent tool is someone whose advice I would take with a very large grain of salt.
Fluoro doesn't necessarily help you get a whiter stone - it usually needs to be strong or very strong to see much effect and it needs to be in light that activates it.. which isn't that many lighting situations. I think fluoro is cool tho and it's often discounted so may mean you could get a bigger stone for your budget.

 

[tyty333]

Like foxinsox said, we have no skin in the game but he is trying to sell you a stone. A lot of not so well
cut stones can look terrific in jewelry store lighting but you want a stone that does its best in all different
lighting. If the guy does not like the HCA tool then ask him for an idealscope image of the stone.

 

[Austina]

I've had a similar experience this week! Asked for a video on a stone, guy said, we don't usually put them on our site because they're so magnified, it puts people off, so I told him, I understood that, but still wanted to see. Told him I'd checked the dimensions of the stone, and it was facing up right for carat weight, and I'd checked the parameters for shape, he asked where'd I'd got my information from, I told him here, and he said "don't take any notice of that site, their information is out of date!"

He basically said he'd been in the industry for a long time and all I needed to know was that it's GIA certified and ex. polish and ex. symmetry.

I really didn't like his attitude, and won't be buying from them.

 

[BRep]

I've had a similar experience this week! Asked for a video on a stone, guy said, we don't usually put them on our site because they're so magnified, it puts people off, so I told him, I understood that, but still wanted to see. Told him I'd checked the dimensions of the stone, and it was facing up right for carat weight, and I'd checked the parameters for shape, he asked where'd I'd got my information from, I told him here, and he said "don't take any notice of that site, their information is out of date!"

He basically said he'd been in the industry for a long time and all I needed to know was that it's GIA certified and ex. polish and ex. symmetry.

I really didn't like his attitude, and won't be buying from them.

Very similar to my experience. End of day, I really like the perks of buying a stone at this specific place, so I will still likely make a purchase there. The funny thing was that he ALMOST got me with the "XXX" is the only standard, but I stuck to my guns (thanks to this site! ) and I'm glad I didn't just take his word for it. He is now searching for stones within my provided paramaters. I'm very hopeful of finding something decent.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Interesting experience you've had.
I used to sell diamonds ( wholesale) in the Carolinas- I'm familiar with the seller.
My perspective may prove enlightening to the discussion.
I agree that you're being "sold". Some of what you and Austina were told is outright aggressive sales techniques.
On the other hand- I happen to agree with some of what was used to try to dissuade/persuade you both.
ON the HCA- it is a tool that has a definite value. Having said that, I don't always agree with the results- that is to say, I've examined ( and owned) stones that scored poorly on HCA< yet looked stunning in real life.
If someone wanted to buy a stone using HCA from us, I'd discuss this with them- but respect the decision they might make either way.
Fluorescence- complicated issue- but in a J color, I very much love some medium and even strong blue fluorescent diamonds.

Austina- clearly the salesperson treated you in a disrespectful manner- which sucks. Also, he gave you bad info as EX/EX tells you NOTHING about how well cut a fancy shape is- I know that sounds weird, but it's a fact. You may very well prefer a diamond of Good/Good over an EX/EX due to factors not quantifiable by polish/symmetry ratings. Things like overall shape and brilliance. Spread.
On the other hand- I very much agree that any site which has parameters for fancy shapes is also misleading. There are no rules I've found that eliminate bad stones without also eliminating desirable ones.

 

[Austina]

Thank you for your perspective Rockdiamond. One of the reasons I wanted to see the stone was for exactly the reasons you mention. I'm looking at marquise, and my preference is for longer and narrower, rather than shorter and broader, so statistics on paper, whilst helpful, are not the be all and end all. I've looked at hundreds of stones in the last few weeks, and been surprised by some I liked very much, that weren't necessarily 'perfect'.

 

[Rockdiamond]

You're welcome Austina.
When I read your post, what strikes me is that the statistics on paper are actually the opposite of helpful to a shopper.
Basically, the numerical parameters which are turned into a grading system can install a preconcieved notion.
If the depth on a given stone is (x) and (x) is downgraded on the chart, you're prepared to see something wrong. You might. But you also might have been influenced by the stats. Based on our exchanges, this probably doesn't apply to you- it sounds like you're using the best tool- your eyes.

 

[BRep]

Interesting update! Looks like my rep found a stone with much better proportions (1.4 HCA) and cheaper than the one in the store . Funny how that worked out lol. Heading in to take a look and requested ideal scope or ASET as well. Fingers crossed!

 

[msop04]

Hi, OP!
I deal with DD as well, and I can assure you that you are doing the right thing by using the HCA. Although my location has at least 2 SA's who really know their stuff (one is the VP, the other just a veteran diamond SA), most of the others I've dealt with there have been taught that GIA is the be-all-end-all and "nothing is better than GIA XXX... you can't get any better". BLAH BLAH BLAH

Here's my story:

When I went to trade for my upgrade, I called and gave a random SA my specs over the phone, and he immediately tried to talk me out of a few things, saying GIA XXX was "all you need." Since I was asking that they bring in 3.2 - 3.5 ct stones with specific specs, I was handed off to the VP -- I guess I was talking over his head, or maybe he thought I wasn't serious? Who knows...

Anyway, I told the VP what I was looking for, that I was set on these specs. I asked that he please not to waste any time getting stones outside the specs I requested, because I would IMMEDIATELY turn them down. He was very nice and called me in the next week to look at 7 stones they gathered.

I rejected 3 bc they weren't the diameter I'd asked for (9.6mm +), but they did fall into the carat range, so no fault of DD -- I didn't mention diameter bc I was already being pretty picky... and quite honestly, I didn't want to miss a great stone simply because it was just ever so slightly smaller (or larger) than what I was looking for... Then I rejected a 4th bc it wasn't eye clean enough for me. When I narrowed it down to 3 stones, I was certain I loved the largest one (duh, right?!? ), but it was the most expensive as well, so I asked them to get me the actual cert. When VP nicely asked why (as I had the 4 C's and diameter), I told him I wanted to run the numbers through the HCA. The original SA I'd dealt with was there and he just had this confused look like WHAT THE HECK is the HCA??

The VP just paused and quietly said, "oh... are you on Pricescope?" I answered "yes," and then he had this look like it all made sense - HA! The stone ended up having beautiful numbers, scored well on the HCA with a 0.8 (all Excellents!), so my eyes didn't let me down after all -- I was smitten.

In their defense, DD isn't used to dealing with those who are like PS members -- most ppl come in there knowing NOTHING except maybe the 4 Cs, and DD actually does a pretty good job of educating those types. Also, they pretty much only deal in GIA. They do have a few AGS and EGL stones, but they REALLY push GIA. I truly believe their SA's are taught that every other lab is inferior to GIA, so just don't bother making the AGS cut argument... trust me.

So, my point is to stick to your guns. You probably know more than your SA. Don't settle for what they have in stock (although they have TONS to choose from) -- have them pull from other locations, if necessary, but I feel like you'll be able to find something there that checks all the boxes. Best of luck to you, and keep us posted!

BTW... at which location are you shopping? (if it happens to be the Birmingham, AL DD, I'd be happy to meet up with you there!)

 

[BRep]

@msop04 Thanks for the insight on the process! I'm headed in next week to take a look at some stones in my parameter range. Which brings me to another question as you've dealt with them--what was your negotiation experience like? I've been told that they are flexible, especially with non-financing buyers which I will be. Any insight if you don't mind? Thanks

 

[msop04]

@msop04 Thanks for the insight on the process! I'm headed in next week to take a look at some stones in my parameter range. Which brings me to another question as you've dealt with them--what was your negotiation experience like? I've been told that they are flexible, especially with non-financing buyers which I will be. Any insight if you don't mind? Thanks

No problem, BRep! Happy to help!

Yes, that is correct -- if you're not financing through them, DD is open to negotiation. MOF, I was able to get them off their price about $4K on my upgrade. I'm not a great negotiator, so I just tried to act calm (even though I was in LOVE with the stone and very excited -- I would've paid full price). I mentioned several times that, although I was prepared to buy, I was in no big hurry -- the diamond and the PRICE had to be right. I looked up comps on JA, BN, and other PS vendors before going in, so I had somewhere to start from (pricewise). When they acted like they couldn't go down any more on the stone I loved, I just said something along the lines of, "Well, okay... I'll just wait... No rush -- I'll be looking online for stones for you to bring in..."

DD doesn't like to call in outside stones (i.e. stones not already in DD's stores), but they will do it... this isn't something they advertise, and they will go out of their way to sell you one of their diamonds, even if it means discounting the stone even further than they'd really like. I tried to capitalize on that.

After leaving the office, I "looked around" the store for about 10 minutes and VP called me back into his office (we were previously in his office instead of at the counter). He told me that he'd spoken with his immediate supervisor, and then presented his bottom dollar price -- which was still about $2500 more than I wanted to spend, but $4000 less than the "discounted" price I was given... I sat and thought about it as if I wasn't going to buy it... I asked if they would be able to get a 6 prong temp setting in soon (it had to be ordered to fit the stone), sized and set in the next few days. They said yes, then I agreed to the price. It worked.

 

[BRep]

@msop04 you're a Godsend! . I have a little time as well so I won't be pushed over the edge until I'm ready. The stones I have coming in match my sizing and ratio criteria so I'm hopeful one of them will be 'the one'!

 

[msop04]

@msop04 you're a Godsend! . I have a little time as well so I won't be pushed over the edge until I'm ready. The stones I have coming in match my sizing and ratio criteria so I'm hopeful one of them will be 'the one'!

Glad to help! It sounds like you're prepared -- good luck and keep us posted!