Haven't read much here about red andesine

[LD]

I don't have a receipt. I have an appraisal from my jeweler (a custom jeweler, not a chain). She is a certified gemologist, would she put her reputation at risk to tell me a tale? Especially since I am a repeat buyer? Maybe I am naive, but I trust her.

Whether or not your stone is from Oregan - your appraiser is simply that, an appraiser and I would assume she does not have the ability to test the stone for its chemical composition and therefore would be unable to tell whether it was from Oregan or not. It is usually only labs who can do that. She's not staking her reputation on anything other than you've told her it's from Oregan (presumably) because that's what the vendor told you. Faced with that, she will assess it as an Oregan Andesine. Is it? Who knows? The only way to tell categorically would be to get it assessed by a lab who can determine any treatment and also origin. We have a saying on this forum that is "trust but verify" and this is borne out of unfortunate experiences I'm afraid.

At the end of the day, you've presumably had the ring for a while and love it. You've got an appraisal and you can simply leave it at that if you want. Sometimes people HAVE to know what they've got - others are content to take it on face value. I wouldn't advocate sending it for more testing unless you REALLY have to know!

Gene - I love the photos of the rough. It's an intriguing stone and I would be tempted not to facet them but to set the rough into jewellery as it is!

 

[PrecisionGem]

Gene,
Unless I am buying from a lapidary or see the rough, how else would I know? Trust is good but how do I verify an already cut stone?

But Chrono, say I cut one of the stones in the photo for you. You would need to trust that I actually sold you the stone I said I did. And then the people I bought the rough from. I needed to trust they really were from Oregon. Unless you dig it up yourself, you don't really know.

As far as the labs go, this Chinese material was being reported by the labs as untreated initially. So you need a measure of trust with them too!

I don't think there is a much fraud in the gem business as people tend to imply. It seems often when new people post a picture of a stone they have, the first reaction here is to tell them it may not be what they think it is, and it's most likely treated. I would have no reason not to believe the jeweler she bought the Oregon stone above from, unless it was maybe L. Armstrong Jewelers and Bike Shop.

Overall, I have found people in the gem business to be very honest, and represent what they are selling correctly. I deal mostly with people selling rough, so I can't comment too much on cut stones. A few times I get a stone that is misidentified, but it was an honest mistake.

LD, I agree. The Oregon stones are very interesting in the rough. I have seen some really nice carvings of them where the natural look of the stone was retained.

 

[LD]

Gene - I don't disagree with much of what you say and I absolutely KNOW that if I'm buying from you, I get what I pay for (unless you've been duped). However, where I do disagree is my experience of the gemstone world. It's a different story when I buy from those I don't know. I'm going to give you examples of recent events in the UK which demonstrates that you CAN'T trust vendors necessarily. Which is sad but true.

In around 2005-6 a television channel started in the UK called The Jewellery Channel. It's owned by STS (I think that's correct but I may have got the initials around the wrong way), who are a major gemstone buyer/vendor in the US and around the world. They are also one of the very few site holders at Tanzanite One, so on the face of it, you have no reason to doubt their credentials. In or around 2006 they started selling "Russian" Alexandrite (sorry to harp on about this particular gemstone) but they sold it for over a year despite protestations and complaints - by myself and a few others in the UK. Eventually, I had their buyer visit me and later it was admitted (on air and by letter to all of those who had bought "Russian" Alexandrite) that they weren't from Russia, terribly sorry, and they could either return the stone and have their money back or simply keep the item.

More recently the same company started selling Rubies that had been dyed, filled and who knows what - and again, when they were pressed into doing so (and this time we had to lobby the advertising standards authority) they are now selling Rubies but selling them as treated.

The same thing happened with Andesine.

The same thing happened with Topaz (where no coating was ever declared).

Today, we have another TV company called Rocks and Co (fronted by a gem dealer and his brother who is a lapidarist - the Diniz brothers). What are they doing (even up to yesterday!), yes, selling Russian Alexandrite! This time they're saying that they've bought somebody's private collection. Of course it's rubbish and again, we've had to leap into action to start the ball rolling on this one now.

GemsTV in the UK were sold pink diamonds and their buyer didn't check them out fully and they turned out to be coated. After customers were asking about them and questionning the treatment/lack of treatment, GemsTV recalled everything, admitted they had been missold and refunded everybody.

The list is endless. If I go into my local jewellery shop, I've seen reconstituted Emeralds, Opal doublets and you name it, it's in there! In Turkey (don't get me started about what's on offer there), I've seen just about everything being passed off as precious gemstones for astronomical prices! All being sold for what you would expect natural untreated gemstones to be sold for. The uninformed buyer won't know anything about this and will expect to be purchasing an heirloom.

Soooooooooooo, sorry I've rambled, but the morale of the story is to trust but verify and unfortunately even those we think we can trust, we can't! I love it when somebody has a true find and it can be verified (if they want it to be), I really do. I hate people being duped or lied to.

I agree, we often warn newcomers to get pieces checked but that's because our experience of the gemstone industry is, unfortunately, not as great as yours. I wish I had your faith. At the end of the day, knowledge is power and if somebody WANTS to know how to get their items checked out then they are given the information to do so. It's a personal, personal issue and I respect that some people just want to wear and enjoy their jewellery and there's nothing wrong with that either!

............ and breathe!!!!

 

[chrono]

Gene,
Just as we PSers have recommended vendors to buy from based on honesty and etc, I am sure you don't buy your rough from just anybody too. There are plenty of scammers on eBay, uninformed jewellers (on coloured gemstones) and such. Even down by the mines, you know there are people mixing in synthetics and simulants in their parcels. I am sure you check the rough you are interested in, right? I only wish it were as simplistic to be be guarantee that I'm getting exactly what is advertised 100% of the time. If so, then there's no need for any gemmological labs.

Going off topic here: is there any incentive to diffuse Oregon andesine or sunstone? I believe it has been done by the labs to find out if it is possible and the answer is a resounding YES. If so, is it cost effective to do this to get a more saturated red gem?

 

[PrecisionGem]

LD and Chrono, thanks for the info. I really wasn't aware things are that bad. Like I said, I buy rough not cut stones so I have very very limited experience dealing with cut stone vendors.

A few times I will find something in my rough that isn't right. Last week I felt like cutting a sapphire, and had a small parcel I bought in Africa a few years ago. Pulled out a light purple stone, and as soon as I started to pre shape it by hand, I knew it wasn't a sapphire. To soft, cut too fast. I finished cutting it, and measured the RI, it was a scapolite. I think it was an honest mistake by the guy I bought it from in Arusha. He is a very honest guy. These things happen.

 

[LD]

Every cloud though Gene because some people love Scapolite and at the end of the day it's more unique!!!

 

[vickygigi]

Well everyone, here's an update on this stone. I sent the red stone to the AGL after discovering that my large blue sapphire from the same vendor was actually lab created (it was sold to me as natural and unheated for a lot of $). The red stone is actually lab diffused andesine. There is nothing genuine about this red color despite the assurances in the appraisal she gave me. It is not from Oregon at all. I was taken by this vendor for both of these stones. I have a 3rd stone I got from her enroute to the AGL for analysis. Be careful out there. This vendor became a family friend.

 

[Agneau]

Oh no... ugh.
I am so sorry.

 

[vickygigi]

Thanks. I am glad I am now more educated and I know the AGL is my friend. If you buy an expensive stone, send it in and get a GemBrief. Better safe than sorry!

 

[iLander]

Well everyone, here's an update on this stone. I sent the red stone to the AGL after discovering that my large blue sapphire from the same vendor was actually lab created (it was sold to me as natural and unheated for a lot of $). The red stone is actually lab diffused andesine. There is nothing genuine about this red color despite the assurances in the appraisal she gave me. It is not from Oregon at all. I was taken by this vendor for both of these stones. I have a 3rd stone I got from her enroute to the AGL for analysis. Be careful out there. This vendor became a family friend.

I'm sorry to hear this.

You need to out the vendor, to keep others from being taken.

She wasn't shy about selling you a bunch of junk, you shouldn't be shy about naming her.

Oh, and don't feel bad about getting taken. Sociopaths are very convincing because they actually believe what they're saying.

 

[minousbijoux]

VG: I am so sorry this happened. Its not only horrible to find that your trust was misguided and you overpaid dearly for inauthentic stones, but that she became a family friend?! I hate it when our trust in people comes back to hurt us! How can people live like that?!!

You know, sometimes I wonder if there was a gauge that could be used for determining the authenticity of stones - like a geiger counter equivalent or something - how many of my early stones bought without lab reports would be wooping, dinging or clicking away right now...

Sending you a virtual hug and wishes for many excellent, gorgeous stones to come your way now. You deserve something good now.

 

[vickygigi]

Thanks Minoux and iLander. Yes, it is very upsetting to learn you have been tricked. It was a very expensive lesson for me (the stones, custom mountings, insurance on the pieces for months and months, etc.) She had the nerve to befriend my kids too - and me, and my husband. It is a very awful feeling. Fortunately I have found more reputable vendors through this forum and I now have, what I believe to be, some very nice, authentic stones. I am buying smarter now and getting AGL certs on expensive stones. I am also considering buying a refractometer and other testing equipment. I am taking my first faceting class next week. I want to expand my knowledge so I don't get fooled again! : )

 

[Richard M.]

Well everyone, here's an update on this stone. I sent the red stone to the AGL after discovering that my large blue sapphire from the same vendor was actually lab created (it was sold to me as natural and unheated for a lot of $). The red stone is actually lab diffused andesine. There is nothing genuine about this red color despite the assurances in the appraisal she gave me. It is not from Oregon at all. I was taken by this vendor for both of these stones. I have a 3rd stone I got from her enroute to the AGL for analysis. Be careful out there. This vendor became a family friend.

I’m sorry you received such terrible news but it’s a good thing you did the lab tests. I hope that dishonest vendor is no longer selling stones. He or she should go to jail for fraud.

The andesine thing was a very sophisticated scam, the most elaborate I’ve seen in my many years in the gem and jewelry business. It snared many knowledgeable people, including me. After I saw a photograph of what was then called “Congo Andesine” by highly respected gem photographer Jeff Scovil I started looking into acquiring some stones for my own inventory. (The Tibetan story came later.) During my research I found a number of prominent gem merchants were offering it for sale and it seemed to be something gem dealers have sought for years – a reasonably-priced true red stone!

I found the source supplier and invested in stones for inventory and offered them for sale on my website. Fortunately within a very short time strong doubts about the authenticity of the material emerged. Rather than chance selling treated stones as unenhanced I immediately took them down from my site and decided to wait until all questions had been answered.

That turned out to be a years-long process with seemingly endless twists and turns. I won’t go into the whole drama because it’s been documented in detail elsewhere. But I still have a case full of very pretty red feldspars I look at now and then and wish things had been different.

I think the worst fall-out from the scam is the awful damage done to the beautiful and entirely natural Oregon material (which can be either labradorite or andesine, by the way – the borderline between the two is arbitrary and sometimes very difficult to establish without expensive lab tests. Plagioclase is one of those confusing “solid solution” mineral series where sodium and calcium atoms can substitute for each other in the mineral's crystal lattice structure .)

Some of the best Oregon stones rival the finest colors of diffused Chinese material and can be expensive. It’s also a wonderful carving and cabochon stone that’s generated a big fan following in the lapidary community. It’s the old story of a “few bad apples” ruining things for many good ones.

The rough in the image is a fine example of an Oregon schiller sunstone. I’ve smoothed it a bit here and there but haven’t yet decided whether it will be faceted, carved or cabbed. When I’ve looked at it long enough it will tell me what it wants to be.

Richard M. (Rick Martin)

 

[vickygigi]

Thanks Richard,

I am sorry to hear you got caught up in it too, but I am grateful for your response. This person is still selling gems, but primarily in person and at shows. Not so much online. I'll tell you, I won't buy from her again, that's for sure!

 

[Euphony]

Even if she does not sell online, you should really do everything you can to get the word out. She defrauded you, and I would take any action I could against her. The blue sapphire scam is particularly disgraceful. I'm very sorry.

 

[cm366]

Vicky, as someone who buys online as well as in person and at shows, I'm sorry to hear your story. The ring is still lovely and I hope you enjoy wearing it, but it's a shame that you were deceived by the seller. I'd really appreciate it if you could share her name, both to help prevent others from being similarly tricked and to help discourage vendors with similar practices. Thanks for telling your story!

 

[Richard M.]

Thanks Richard,

I am sorry to hear you got caught up in it too, but I am grateful for your response. This person is still selling gems, but primarily in person and at shows. Not so much online. I'll tell you, I won't buy from her again, that's for sure!

There are many lessons to be learned in the gem business and some of them come at high cost. Those are never forgotten. In my case the misjudgment came from the old conflicting sayings: "Look before you leap" contrasted with "He who hesitates is lost." I leaped too soon, trusting the judgment of other respected gem merchants. One of them, very prominent, is still offering "Congo Andesine" although no African mine has ever been identified and no rough from it has ever been seen.<p>

You may be reluctant to publicly identify your fraudulent gem seller for fear of reprisals but at a minimum you should file charges against her. While she may have been taken in by the red andesine scam as many were, she should refund your money. Worse, selling lab sapphire as natural is prima facie fraud. As one who buys at gem shows I'd like to know who she is. There's absolutely nothing I hate more than a dishonest gem dealer.

Richard M.

 

[Edward Bristol]

The same lesson we learned: Never ever buy without certificate.

Unless I (or some of my people) was physically present when the rough came from the ground we also never pay for rough until it was cut and certified for good.

Whenever I get slack on that rule (I do once a year or so) I get ripped off, experienced or not.

Great business times for gem labs.

 

[Edward Bristol]

The same lesson we learned: Never ever buy without certificate.

Unless I (or some of my people) was physically present when the rough came from the ground we also never pay for rough until it was cut and certified for good.

Whenever I get slack on that rule (I do once a year or so) I get ripped off, experienced or not.

Great business times for gem labs.

 

[chrono]

VG,
I am incredibly sorry that you experienced such a shock and fraud of this magnitude. This is outright fraud and you should be able to file some sort of complaint with somebody. Police report? BBB? Chamber of Business? I understand that the andesine could be an honest mistake since many other vendors were scammed as well but it is easy enough to differentiate a lab created sapphire from a natural stone. The RI will be the same but upon high magnification, the inclusions (or sometimes lack of) is the determining factor. Do you mind sharing what the third stone is? Secondly, I call your independant appraiser's skill into question. Obviously he or she should have caught that but did not. In effect, you have two problems - the vendor is misrepresenting stones sold to you and the appraiser who didn't catch the misrepresented stones.

I understand your hesitation to out the vendor but you are doing many others a disservice. People will continue to buy from this vendor (at his or her store) and at gem shows and be sold undisclosed and lab created gems for a lot of money. You will be allowing this cheater to continue a successful business practice at the expense of the customers, be it other PSers or just regular folk. In an attempt to be fair, have you discussed these with the vendor and appraiser? Are they aware that the stones are not what they were thought to be?

 

[vickygigi]

Thanks guys - don't judge me because I didn't know better when I bought the stones, I went on trust, BUT the jeweler who sold me the stones also provided the appraisals. I did not get an independent appraisal. I was a very naive buyer and never imagined in a million years that something like this would happen. This person sold me the stones (for a whole lot of money) and also built custom rings in white gold around them for me. The red andesine ring had nearly 1 ct of VS1 F color diamonds around it at .25 points apiece (I provided those) and the sapphire had 2 trillion shaped aquamarines that were a gift from my husband. I paid this jeweler to custom design & cast these rings around these fake stones! Chrono, the 3rd stone is a fancy cut 7.31 ct. Pink Tourmaline. It is 15.5 x 8.6 mm. It was supposedly cut in Germany and if you tilt the stone just right there are hearts faceted in each end. I am praying for dear life that this stone is what I bought because I paid over a grand for it and I really like it. The color is amazing and it is clean. I'll put a photo of it below. The reason I am hesitant to "out" this vendor is because I don't want any retaliation. I did confront her about the stones and she assured me she is looking into it. She has the "sapphire" back and the red stone is being shipped to her from the AGL. I did recover some of my investment, but not all of it. Her shop is very close to my house. If any of you want to discuss my decision not to out her with me, I will have 1:1 convos with you. I guess I'll hear about that tourm in a couple weeks. The AGL has been very good about getting to my stones quickly. I have nothing but good to say about that lab. Thanks again!

 

[chrono]

I highly doubt that anyone is judging you but if you feel that way, I am sorry because that is definitely not my intent. We are all in your favour and want to assist and support you in any way possible. Not to scare you since even the labs have trouble detecting this but most pink tourmaline these days are irradiated. Given that it is difficult to detect, it is something most of us have accepted as part of the risk and chose to either steer clear of it or know that the possibility is there. $1k is actually not overpriced considering the size of the pink tourmaline.

Sounds like the vendor is also investigating her gem sources, which is a good sign. She could well have been duped herself. Do keep us informed as to the resolution proposed.

 

[vickygigi]

Oh Chrono,

Don't misunderstand me, the reason I prefaced with "don't judge me, BUT" is because in retrospect, I am judging me and realizing just what a stupid consumer I was! I truly hope the pink tourm isn't irradiated. If it is, I will re-approach the vendor. She knew/knows what a stickler I am for natural stones. I won't ever buy a swiss or London Blue Topaz for example because I know it has been treated. I personally want untreated stones. I think she is questioning her sources at this point, but what I don't get is how she didn't know things were amiss with her stones??? She has trained at the GIA and calls herself a GIA certified gemologist. If she doesn't have testing equipment, why not send a few stones off for grading before continuing to buy from these sources??? Her carelessness, ignorance or deceit (whichever one) cost me a lot of money. You know?

 

[Euphony]

If she is taking the stones back and refunding what you paid for them, then outing her is unnecessary as she is paying the price for poor business. The margins on jewellery are not very good, so buying back synthetic stones will be a painful lesson to her bank account about being willfully negligent.

No one judges you at all. People on this forum have been around the block, but most people would have made the same mistake. Customers sometimes get suspicious when you insist you have to take their jewellery to an independent appraiser. Little do they know, that is a company being vigilant and honest.

 

[ChrisA222]

Don't worry guys...VG is a personal friend of mine (just met her this Jan, before she bought these stones from this vendor) and I've been helping her through this process and guiding her through how, where, and who to buy gemstones from. So she won't ever get burned again...

She's dealt with the jeweler the right way...and has gotten back money from the stones that were misrepresented...so I don't think outing the vendor in a public forum is the right thing to do. It is a local business in the Carolinas...so it is not a vendor that many or any of you would come in contact with.

It is pretty shocking to me that anyone who considers themselves a gemologist would pass off a synthetic Sapphire as natural...bordering on criminal. As soon as that happened, I encouraged her to send the other high-value stones to AGL, and sure enough, the Andesine is diffused. I haven't seen the Tourmaline in person....and I'm 50/50 on whether its a natural or some type of synthetic stone. We shall see...

It just goes back to that saying that floats around PS from time to time "trust but verify..."

 

[vickygigi]

Agreed Chris. Well said!

 

[FrekeChild]

Oh VG, this is such a terrible situation. I'm so sorry you are having to deal with this and go through with it. I would probably not deal as well with it as you have.

 

[LD]

Very disappointing for you but will mean you're a much more savvy buyer going forward. When you've been around gemstones for a while you'll develop a spidey sense and will trust no-one (and you shouldn't unless it's a small amount of money).

Unfortunately people can buy and sell gemstones easily but not know much about them - this is far more common than you'd think! I've yet to hear somebody when selling their gemstones to say they have no idea what the gem is when asked about treatments! You'll always hear "I trust my source" "I know where this came from" "I can tell by looking" and a plethora of other such rubbish!

Fingers crossed your tourmaline is ok but prepare yourself for the worst and then you won't be too upset is the result isn't favourable. A 7ct clean tourmaline like that is a bit of warning bell but let's hope I'm wrong. Please make sure though that you get ALL your money back PLUS the cost of the AGL briefs. This vendor should refund you in full, not part.

 

[minousbijoux]

Vicky: I want to commend you for coming back and sharing this info. You could've been so overwhelmed by these revelations that you chose not to share, but instead, you have come back to teach us about vigilance and trust. I thank you so much for your generosity in sharing this story. I also understand and commend you for not sharing the vendor name, but instead giving them the benefit of the doubt and trying to work it out directly with her.

If I can be of any assistance to you, feel free to reach out! It appears that you and I are in several mutual groups on FB, if that helps at all.

-Minou

 

[vickygigi]

Thanks Minou! I believe we are in several FB groups together.