shape
carat
color
clarity

Have You Watched The House Impeachment Hearings? If So, What Do You Think?

Karl_K

Super_Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Aug 4, 2008
Messages
14,632
So far a bunch of whinny petty bureaucrats without one bit of credibility who are triggered coz the sandbox got kicked. .
 

Matata

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Sep 10, 2003
Messages
8,995
Screen Shot 2019-11-20 at 9.02.39 AM.png
 

AGBF

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jan 26, 2003
Messages
22,143
Nicolle Wallace, a former Republican stalwart and staffer for George W. Bush who now hosts a program on MSNBC put it well. There was no "shadow government". Rudy Giuiani was not leading some shadow campaign that sought to undermine official US foreign policy. He was following official policy: policy that started with Trump, was endorsed by Pence and Pompeo at State (as well as Mulvaney of course). The policy to extort Ukraine, which "Rudy" pushed, was official US and State Department policy. Pompeo was briefed on every step of it.

"Sondland says Ukraine pressure campaign was ‘no secret’"



"Star witness says senior officials were ‘in the loop’ on push for investigations"
"Secretary of State Mike Pompeo, Vice President Pence and acting White House chief of staff Mick Mulvaney were among those whom Ambassador Gordon Sondland said were aware of the pressure on Ukraine for probes that could damage President Trump’s political opponents."

 

Matata

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Sep 10, 2003
Messages
8,995
Nicolle Wallace, a former Republican stalwart and staffer for George W. Bush who now hosts a program on MSNBC put it well. There was no "shadow government". Rudy Giuiani was not leading some shadow campaign that sought to undermine official US foreign policy. He was following official policy: policy that started with Trump, was endorsed by Pence and Pompeo at State (as well as Mulvaney of course). The policy to extort Ukraine, which "Rudy" pushed, was official US and State Department policy. Pompeo was briefed on every step of it.

If not a "shadow government" then one with conflicting purpose in which the president and all the president's men didn't inform their own ambassadors that there was a change in direction as well as a change in who was representing the president. Those ambassadors were left swinging in the wind. The most transparent president in the history of presidents chose to keep his swampy waters murky.
 

AGBF

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jan 26, 2003
Messages
22,143
If not a "shadow government" then one with conflicting purpose in which the president and all the president's men didn't inform their own ambassadors that there was a change in direction as well as a change in who was representing the president. Those ambassadors were left swinging in the wind. The most transparent president in the history of presidents chose to keep his swampy waters murky.



I suspect that misleading the public, not the ambassadors, was the goal of the government representatives mentioned. Misleading their (professional) ambassadors, temporarily, was only a by-product of the skullduggery.
 

Karl_K

Super_Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Aug 4, 2008
Messages
14,632
No more quid pro quo the new word is bribery! .. :lol:
When they have no proof, they change the question.
Does this add another number to the coup attempts or is this the same one?
 

Maria D

Brilliant_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jan 24, 2003
Messages
1,948
A coup attempt? Dramatic much @Karl_K? Pelosi did NOT want to impeach Trump. It's a politically risky, even dangerous, move and she's as savvy a politician as you can possibly have. Trump *forced* this whole inquiry by his blatant disregard for political norms and possibly the constitution itself. Apparently republicans and defenders of Trump can easily overlook all the shady crap he has been pulling for years. The man meets with Putin in secret and comes away believing Putin over our own intelligence community. He blows off the emoluments clause, it's just phony constitution bullsh*t to him. Many of his closest associates are in jail. The Mueller report strongly suggested obstruction but left it up to Congress to do its job. The dems finally are forced to do something so now it's a coup attempt? More like Trump is doing a slow coup of this country and no one was stopping him. As for proof - the witnesses are all saying the same thing and they are from HIS administration!

I really don't understand you at all on this Karl. Were you railing about coup attempts when Clinton was impeached too? FYI, YOU are the reason I tip my pizza delivery person generously because a long time ago I asked here about why there's a line for a tip when I've already paid a delivery fee. You set me straight on that one. In my mind you have always stood for what's fair and right. What happened Karl?:cry2:
 

Karl_K

Super_Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Aug 4, 2008
Messages
14,632
I really don't understand you at all on this Karl. Were you railing about coup attempts when Clinton was impeached too?
I thought the Clinton impeachment was lame as heck but also funny.
And I said so.
 

Karl_K

Super_Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Aug 4, 2008
Messages
14,632
In my mind you have always stood for what's fair and right. What happened Karl?:cry2:
I do not believe that Trump has been given a fair chance.
He has been constantly under attack by the media, bureaucrats and democrats even before he was elected.
There is even some proof the fbi spied on and interfered with his campaign.
Which intensified after he beat the media darling Hillary who had to cheat to get nominated in the first place.
His administration has been undermined, spied on, and full of leakers many of them left overs from the past that do not want any change because they want to protect their own fiefdoms.
 
Last edited:

Karl_K

Super_Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Aug 4, 2008
Messages
14,632
Political norms are not laws and the president should be in charge not some bureaucrat.
The elected government needs to take back the government from bureaucrats.

That is one thing I will always hate Obama for he strengthened and weaponized the bureaucrats against the American people to an even greater extent than they already where.
 

Maria D

Brilliant_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jan 24, 2003
Messages
1,948
I do not believe that Trump has been given a fair chance.
He has been constantly under attack by the media, bureaucrats and democrats even before he was elected.
There is even some proof the fbi spied on and interfered with his campaign.
Which intensified after he beat the media darling Hillary who had to cheat to get nominated in the first place.
His administration has been undermined, spied on, and full of leakers many of them left overs from the past that do not want any change because they want to protect their own fiefdoms.

Yes, his adminstration HAS been undermined, *some* of them leftovers and the rest -- HIS OWN PEOPLE! They KNOW he is reckless, ill-informed and potentially dangerous. The media absolutely can be a sh*tshow on both sides, but reporting on his divisive rants is not attacking him. Trump is the one always on the attack. Anyway, his own people do not trust him. It's mind-boggling to me that you do. But, I'm just going to stop engaging in discussing Trump with you and think only about the Karl I've come to value and respect. Peace.
 

Dancing Fire

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 3, 2004
Messages
33,852
A coup attempt? Dramatic much @Karl_K? Pelosi did NOT want to impeach Trump. It's a politically risky, even dangerous, move and she's as savvy a politician as you can possibly have.
She still don't, but her radical Dem. members pushed her into the water. She know is risky and can cause her the gavel come 2020. I'd agree Pelosi is a very savvy politician but she is being controlled by the likes of AOC.
 

AGBF

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jan 26, 2003
Messages
22,143
Opinion is not proof.



What is it in the extortion attempt about which you need more "proof" ?

The part where Trump held up the military aid that had already been granted by Congress; vetted by the Pentagon; and signed off on by Donald Trump himself?
or​
The part where Donald Trump told President Zellinsky that he would have to go to a microphone and announce that he was going to investigate the 2016 Democratic server and the Bidens in order to unfreeze that aid and to get a meeting at The White House?

What would you accept as "proof'?

PS-Nothing could restore that days without military aid or the lack of presence of President Trump at Zelinksy's inauguration, which he had begged for, and which Trump had denied him.
 

partgypsy

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Nov 7, 2004
Messages
6,622
I think at this point the people who are still trying to defend Trump, have no vested interest in allowing our country to continue under the same kind of government envisioned by the framers of the constituion. The original framers were afraid of a number of things that might undermine a democratic government of the people, for the people and by the people. Foreign governments influencing our government, or people in our government (this is why treason has the death penalty). To have severly limited powers of corporations (which alas has been continually undermined by Republican elected judges, to even give corporations citizenship rights, which the framers would be COMPLETELY against). And also, to have a system of checks and balances so no one part of the government controls the other parts, because that leads to tyranny. Over and over Trump continues to undermine basic ideals and laws of the constitution. Everything from accepting money from foreign individuals on behalf of other governments hostile to the US, to appointing judges who are beholden to him versus us the people (same thing for political appointees), to trying to appropriate power that is given to the senate. It is also pretty obvious how Trump thinks the constitution, and more importantly the ideas BEHIND the constitution is a piece of tissue paper. This close to trash. He disparages, undermines and even betrays our allys, other democratic goverments, over currying favor with dictators. He even says he ADMIRES them and their system of government. If our checks and balances have been undermined to the extent we can't even get rid of this turd of a president, our system of government is well on it's way to a different, less desirable form of government. Whether it is an oligarchy or anarchy, who knows, But it will suck. It's not even about Trump. It's about reclaiming our government from a wannabe tyrant.

Trump on Chinese president for life of Communist party: "He’s now president for life,” “President for life. No, he’s great. And look, he was able to do that. I think it’s great. Maybe we’ll have to give that a shot some day.”

Trump with Putin gesturing to reporters around them "“Get rid of them. Fake news is a great term, isn’t it? You don’t have this problem in Russia but we do,” Trump said. (Putin has a long history of supressing free press in Russia, up to and including assasinating journalists).

Trump's contempt for the free press, free speech, and the right to peacefully assemble is well known.

Turkish President Ergodan “Frankly, he’s getting very high marks. He’s also been working with the United States. We have a great friendship and the countries—I think we’re right now as close as we’ve ever been … a lot of that has to do with a personal relationship.” (Trump has business ties which apparently take precedent over our long standing geopolitical policies)

Referencing Chinese communist party's brutal crackdown on political protest at Tiananment Square, Trump defended it saying “shows you the power of strength,” He dismissed the protest as a "riot". In case you can't remember it was a student led protest, where among a number of things hundreds to thousands of civilians were shot down by the military (unclear how many deaths due to again, lack of free press in China), Trump thinks this is A OK. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989_Tiananmen_Square_protests
 

partgypsy

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Nov 7, 2004
Messages
6,622
And, just for fun, some quotes from a real President, a real leader. Someone who uses their strength and influence to care for and lift up his people to benefit everyone, not divide them. It is so sad how far we have gone from a civil society. https://www.azquotes.com/author/4403-Dwight_D_Eisenhower

"If a political party does not have its foundation in the determination to advance a cause that is right and that is moral, then it is not a political party; it is merely a conspiracy to seize power." The right, moral thing: Trump and his cronies GOT TO GO.
 
Last edited:

House Cat

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Feb 22, 2009
Messages
4,602
I do not believe that Trump has been given a fair chance.
He has been constantly under attack by the media, bureaucrats and democrats even before he was elected.
There is even some proof the fbi spied on and interfered with his campaign.
Which intensified after he beat the media darling Hillary who had to cheat to get nominated in the first place.
His administration has been undermined, spied on, and full of leakers many of them left overs from the past that do not want any change because they want to protect their own fiefdoms.

I agree that Hillary Clinton cheated her way to the nomination. This is a fact that angers me greatly because now, Bernie is older and possibly in poor health.

Karl, are you aware that most of your arguments sound like Fox News rhetoric and that you aren’t addressing the fact that Trump withheld aid from a vulnerable country in order to get them to announce that they were investigating his political rival? He was running a shadow foreign policy through Rudy Giuliani. This isn’t opinion, this is being stated over and over again by diplomats. You, instead, are muddying the waters of this thread by saying that Trump is a victim of the media and the FBI. Trump has committed criminal acts and isn’t a victim of any of his own actions. He wasn’t forced to do any of these things by the media or by the FBI or by Obama or by Hillary. He must be held accountable for his criminal decision making.

I always find it interesting that people find Trump to be a strong leader and a victim of circumstance at the same time. He can’t be both. He is either weak or strong. If he is a victim, then he can’t possibly be an adept leader. If he is strong, then he must be held accountable for his actions. It’s time for his supporters to choose.
 
Last edited:

redwood66

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Aug 22, 2012
Messages
7,329
Criminal acts have yet to be proven. And these hearings are not convincing me. There is plenty of opinion to be found but I have not seen any proof that the sole intent was to get Biden. That is what is needed.
 

soxfan

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jun 20, 2013
Messages
4,814
Criminal acts have yet to be proven. And these hearings are not convincing me. There is plenty of opinion to be found but I have not seen any proof that the sole intent was to get Biden. That is what is needed.

So you don't believe even ONE of these government officials? Wow.
 

redwood66

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Aug 22, 2012
Messages
7,329
So you don't believe even ONE of these government officials? Wow.

I did not say that. I said that it has to be proven that Trump's sole intent was to get Biden and not addressing corruption which those government officials have said exists.
 

JPie

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Feb 12, 2018
Messages
3,897
I think at this point the people who are still trying to defend Trump, have no vested interest in allowing our country to continue under the same kind of government envisioned by the framers of the constituion.

I would say this is true of Republican politicians. In terms of their base, what has been shown here and elsewhere is that they will continue to swallow the tripe that Fox News dishes out, and genuinely believe that they are on the right side of the Constitution and history.

That’s why I haven’t bothered to rebut the numerous lies and nonsense repeated by the Trumpsters here. It doesn’t matter what facts you present. They will keep moving the goal posts and excuse the corruption at every turn.

There is no reasoning with these people, but at the end of the day they’re just pawns.
 

redwood66

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Aug 22, 2012
Messages
7,329
If Dems want to impeach the President of the United States they'd better be able to prove intent, especially if they want bipartisan support. This is no joke and their personal feelings about Trump or "Trumpsters" aren't relevant.

Perhaps concentrating on winning the election would be a better idea.
 
Last edited:

soxfan

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jun 20, 2013
Messages
4,814
I would say this is true of Republican politicians. In terms of their base, what has been shown here and elsewhere is that they will continue to swallow the tripe that Fox News dishes out, and genuinely believe that they are on the right side of the Constitution and history.

That’s why I haven’t bothered to rebut the numerous lies and nonsense repeated by the Trumpsters here. It doesn’t matter what facts you present. They will keep moving the goal posts and excuse the corruption at every turn.

There is no reasoning with these people, but at the end of the day they’re just pawns.

Well said and 100% true.
 

Maria D

Brilliant_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jan 24, 2003
Messages
1,948
I would say this is true of Republican politicians. In terms of their base, what has been shown here and elsewhere is that they will continue to swallow the tripe that Fox News dishes out, and genuinely believe that they are on the right side of the Constitution and history.

That’s why I haven’t bothered to rebut the numerous lies and nonsense repeated by the Trumpsters here. It doesn’t matter what facts you present. They will keep moving the goal posts and excuse the corruption at every turn.

There is no reasoning with these people, but at the end of the day they’re just pawns.

So true... now it's "sole intent" of the investigations that matter. Hilarious considering that according to Sondland, Trump didn't care if the investigations even happened at all! He just wanted Zelensky to announce that they would take place.

It reminds me of that story where a driver asked Trump how many rooms his penthouse actually had (as there had been differing reports) and his response was "as many as they'll print." Trump's m.o. has been the same all his life. Smoke, mirrors, plausible deniability...get an investigation announced and then let Fox News blow it up. He is not a stupid man, he's a disciple of P.T. Barnum: "there's a sucker born every minute." Just ask the graduates of Trump U.
 

redwood66

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Aug 22, 2012
Messages
7,329
Keep up the denigration. When I read anything about bringing the country together I'll know it's BS.

I am interested in what everyone thinks about this situation which is why I read about it here. I don't agree with not respecting people because of their political opinions. I don't cherish my own opinion that much.
 
Last edited:

smitcompton

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Feb 11, 2006
Messages
3,254
Hi,

Trump supporters keep saying this is a coup. For your information the definition of a coup, in a Gov't circumstance means a violent overthrow of the Gov't., as in "Coup D' Etat. This is not a coup.

I tread carefully here for I read with interest Maria D's nice comments to Karl. Many years ago when I was new here, I believe it was Karl who posed a few interesting questions in two separate threads. it had to do with integrity. One was if you found a million dollars that you knew was from a robbery, what woukd you do? The following day or two the question had to do with the Gov't and , I believe paying taxes. My recollection is that Karl's answers were quite different to each question. I thought Karl does not like the Gov't. I thought that Karl's integrity was situational, with the Gov't getting the short shrift.

Have you Ksrl gotten a good job from DT? I have called bureaucrats, "petty bureaucrats", when Mueller disappointed us all. I said it because they followed rules that were less important than substance of their findings. The bureaucrats in this impeachment trial are doing the opposite of what Mueller did. They are defying instructions from the higher up, and putting their careers at risk, to tell the truth of what happened.

It is not a matter of opinion on what happened. DT, is not stupid in several ways.his followers may be. He knows Russia helped him. A cloud hangs over his Presidency. He needs a fall guy. Ukraine is it. They interfered with the election, not the Russians. If he clears the Russians he thinks he is home free. He is endangering this country.

That's enough for now. God bless those people who came and alerted us to what went on.
I am an atheist, but I want to show my good will to those that have testified.

Annette
 

partgypsy

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Nov 7, 2004
Messages
6,622
"but I have not seen any proof that the sole intent was to get Biden. That is what is needed."

No, that is not what is needed. There is no needing of moving the goal posts. Earlier before we got the the impeachment hearing, the plausible deniability was that the a) phone call actually happened, and b) the substance of the phone call was not what the whistleblower said. Trump in constantly calling for the identity of the whistleblower, also shows that he is more interested in retailiation than us knowing the truth.
In the hearings we now have first person sources testifying what occurred in that phone call. There is no plausible deniability. Trump said those things and ordered funds held up. The corruption angle is BS. That has also been addressed, so please stop beating that dead horse.
Trump held taxpayer-paid, senate appropriated funds to the Ukraine. Told the Ukrainian president he would not get the money until there was a favor done (announcing an investigation into Biden). That is, he was soliciting aid from a foreign government for election reasons. In addition to being grossly inappropriate it is clear violation of the campaign finance law. I don't understand why Republicans are not more concerned that Trump is undermining the integrity of our elections. Right is right and wrong is wrong. Just because Trump undermining elections causes more Republicans to be elected, does not mean Republicans should support these illegal activities! I don't know what more to say, really.
 
Be a part of the community Get 3 HCA Results
Top