shape
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Have I purchased a badly cut diamond?

theshirlgirlNS

Rough_Rock
Joined
Mar 2, 2020
Messages
60
The experts here will give you their analysis on the data in the certificate, however I’m surprised you would consider the GIA VG grades rather than asking the vendor to only see GIA 3X within the parameters you’ve specified. If cut is your top priority, a GIA VG cut grade is not the best starting point.
 

yssie

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Aug 14, 2009
Messages
23,040
The experts here will give you their analysis on the data in the certificate, however I’m surprised you would consider the GIA VG grades rather than asking the vendor to only see GIA 3X within the parameters you’ve specified. If cut is your top priority, a GIA VG cut grade is not the best starting point.

In this case the VG cut grade is actually due to girdle being “very thin” - not a statement of poor proportions. These sorts of stones can (keyword - can!) be fantastic value if they’re priced commensurately lower than similar GIA EXs ::)
 

MillieLou

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Feb 27, 2020
Messages
644
The certificate is 10 years old, what's happened to the diamond since? I expect it's been worn and possibly damaged, especially with a very thin girdle. Not saying it is, but I would want an up to date certificate.

Have a look at Blue Nile UK for comparators.
 

yssie

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Aug 14, 2009
Messages
23,040
@bananahead This stone is significantly better cut than your original choice. It will sparkle more across all lighting environments.

However.

1. The report is from 2011, and its set into a ring, which indicates that it’s been worn and loved. It might have nicks, chips, scratches from all those years of wear. Some of those nicks/chips/scratches might require time on the cutting wheel to remove - which might affect carat weight and proportions. You will need either an updated GIA report, or an independent appraisal of the loose stone to verify that condition of the stone now is the same as described by the 2011 report.

2. The stone is already set. Would you want to buy it as-is? Or will they be unsetting it for you? What are they asking for ring or stone alone?
 

bananahead

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jul 27, 2021
Messages
19
In this case the VG cut grade is actually due to girdle being “very thin” - not a statement of poor proportions. These sorts of stones can (keyword - can!) be fantastic value if they’re priced commensurately lower than similar GIA EXs ::)

thank you all for your kind replies . I had the gemologist sitting with me ( South African guy who really seemed to know his stuff ‍♀️) I viewed the ring in the shop through a loop( is that what it’s called?) and outside in the street snd also went on Stone algo and that rated it 8.9 for cut? I’m so confused now as the diamond looked so sparkly and fire was amazing .. I did mention I was worried about the girdle snd they said they deemed it safe? It’s up for £1000 less than the triple excellent diamond …why would the cut be deemed better online than the triple excellent if ot isn’t? Like I say I’m not an expert but I thought I could trust the gemologist?
 

MillieLou

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Feb 27, 2020
Messages
644
Are you definitely tied to them for the purchase, or could you get your money back?

Have they offered you any other options, or indicated that they would be willing to call in stones with your specifications?

You have implied that you stand to lose your old diamond and £1000 deposit if you back out. If you are indeed tied to them, and they can't provide you with anything better, then yes, this is a better option that the original one. None of us would want to be too critical about something that may be the best you can get.

If you were starting from scratch, you could, for example, get this GIA Ex/Ex/Ex D VS1 with ideal proportions from Blue Nile UK for £8142 including all taxes/VAT. (This is from a 30 second search just as an example, I'm not an expert). So you could do better for less. But there's no point us suggesting things if you are tied to your current jeweller.

As to what they say... their in-house experts are trying to sell you something ;-)


PS I'm in the UK too. For non-UK residents, Hatton Garden is a bit like the Diamond District in New York. There are some excellent jewellers and others who will absolutely take an unsuspecting customer for a ride. I also understand the lack of easily available well-cut options if you don't want to buy internationally.
 

yssie

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
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Aug 14, 2009
Messages
23,040
thank you all for your kind replies . I had the gemologist sitting with me ( South African guy who really seemed to know his stuff ‍♀️) I viewed the ring in the shop through a loop( is that what it’s called?) and outside in the street snd also went on Stone algo and that rated it 8.9 for cut? I’m so confused now as the diamond looked so sparkly and fire was amazing .. I did mention I was worried about the girdle snd they said they deemed it safe? It’s up for £1000 less than the triple excellent diamond …why would the cut be deemed better online than the triple excellent if ot isn’t? Like I say I’m not an expert but I thought I could trust the gemologist?

Did you read @MillieLou’s post and my other post? GIA VG can be great value for money but there are a number of concerns with this specific stone.
 

yssie

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
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Aug 14, 2009
Messages
23,040
…why would the cut be deemed better online than the triple excellent if ot isn’t?
It’s confusing. It’s not just you.

GIA has a range of proportions that it calls EX. And a range of proportions that it calls VG. And a range it calls Good.

The range of proportions that it calls EX include stones that are #verybeautiful, #beautiful, and #notsobeautiful. of the EX stones will be #verybeautiful and #beautiful, and a few will be #notsobeautiful.

The range of proportions that it calls VG also includes stones that are #verybeautiful, #beautiful, and #notsobeautiful. Most of the VG stones will be #notsobeautiful and a few will be beautiful, and a very small number will be #verybeautiful.

Your EX is one of the few EXs that is #notsobeautiful. And this new VG option is one of the rarities that is either #beautiful or #verybeautiful (we can’t tell anything from those photos - too blurry and far away).

There are a number of proportion factors that are considered in these cut grades. Some influence the diamond’s appearance more than others. A “very thin” girdle is one of those factors that will downgrade overall cut grade (a “thin” girdle would have qualified for EX) but doesn’t by itself have much influence on the diamond’s appearance.

Here’s more info:
https://www.gia.edu/diamond-cut/diamond-cut-basic-overview

And if you want to just play with different proportions and see how GIA would grade them, this tool is free (you just need to make an account with GIA):
https://www.gia.edu/facetware
 
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bananahead

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jul 27, 2021
Messages
19
It’s confusing. It’s not just you.

GIA has a range of proportions that it calls EX. And a range of proportions that it calls VG. And a range it calls Good.

The range of proportions that it calls EX include stones that are #verybeautiful, #beautiful, and #notsobeautiful. of the EX stones will be #verybeautiful and #beautiful, and a few will be #notsobeautiful.

The range of proportions that it calls VG also includes stones that are #verybeautiful, #beautiful, and #notsobeautiful. Most of the VG stones will be #notsobeautiful and a few will be beautiful, and a very small number will be #verybeautiful.

Your EX is one of the few EXs that is #notsobeautiful. And this new VG option is one of the rarities that is either #beautiful or #verybeautiful (we can’t tell anything from those photos - too blurry and far away).

There are a number of proportion factors that are considered in these cut grades. Some influence the diamond’s appearance more than others. A “very thin” girdle is one of those factors that will downgrade overall cut grade (a “thin” girdle would have qualified for EX) but doesn’t by itself have much influence on the diamond’s appearance.

Here’s more info:
https://www.gia.edu/diamond-cut/diamond-cut-basic-overview

And if you want to just play with different proportions and see how GIA would grade them, this tool is free (you just need to make an account with GIA):
https://www.gia.edu/facetware

9F0B9B9A-5CE2-4053-BBC1-35BC49D9593A.jpeg D44DEC68-1DFF-48A5-9175-64A5F7060102.jpeg
 

bananahead

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jul 27, 2021
Messages
19
These any better ? They have told me to take it home wear it for a few days and if I have any problems to call them and go back .. it seems to sparkle and shimmer beautifully .. it was darker in my car but think that is a reflection of the ceiling in my car as it is all black including the ceiling .. the loop showed it as eye clean and I could not see any chips or scratches? But is that because I don’t know what to look for?
 

bananahead

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jul 27, 2021
Messages
19
These any better ? They have told me to take it home wear it for a few days and if I have any problems to call them and go back .. it seems to sparkle and shimmer beautifully .. it was darker in my car but think that is a reflection of the ceiling in my car as it is all black including the ceiling .. the loop showed it as eye clean and I could not see any chips or scratches? But is that because I don’t know what to look for?

F0693FC5-305A-4B0F-BBA3-793E7E3E10CA.jpeg
 

yssie

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Aug 14, 2009
Messages
23,040
Do NOT take it home and try it for a few days. This is a recipe for disaster, given your current situation.

Again, did you read @MillieLou’s and my posts??

The stone may very well be DAMAGED right now. You have no idea what current condition is. But I GUARANTEE that if you take it home, decide against it, and bring it back, they’ll inspect it closely and any damage they find will be YOUR LIABILITY.

You need an updated report or independent appraisal BEFORE you take possession of this stone/ring in any capacity, temporary or permanent.
 

lovedogs

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jul 31, 2014
Messages
14,092
Do NOT take it home and try it for a few days. This is a recipe for disaster, given your current situation.

Again, did you read @MillieLou’s and my posts??

The stone may very well be DAMAGED right now. You have no idea what current condition is. But I GUARANTEE that if you take it home, decide against it, and bring it back, they’ll inspect it closely and any damage they find will be YOUR LIABILITY.

You need an updated report or independent appraisal BEFORE you take possession of this stone/ring in any capacity, temporary or permanent.

1000000% agree. I have a million concerns about this stone, and taking it home is a very bad idea
 

bananahead

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jul 27, 2021
Messages
19
1000000% agree. I have a million concerns about this stone, and taking it home is a very bad idea

So why a million concerns? Thought proportions weren’t to bad and were better than the first ? Is a very thin girdle horrendously bad and could get damaged that easily? Wouldn’t I see any damage in the pictures and loupe? This is all getting me extremely anxious now ! Are the pictures that bad?
 

lovedogs

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
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Jul 31, 2014
Messages
14,092
So why a million concerns? Thought proportions weren’t to bad and were better than the first ? Is a very thin girdle horrendously bad and could get damaged that easily? Wouldn’t I see any damage in the pictures and loupe? This is all getting me extremely anxious now ! Are the pictures that bad?

Read the posts above. The stone has potential to be good and is MUCH better than the first option. However, the report is super old and the stone was set and worn before. That means significant risks for you until the stone is recertified
 

bananahead

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jul 27, 2021
Messages
19
Also, If you are able to get your money back and start again I would do that.

Unfortunately I don’t think I can get my money back as the agreement on deposit was none refundable so I’ll have to go down the avenue of either keeping this suggested one and getting it rectified or trying to get an exchange done .. I’m so upset by it all as I’ve trusted someone and now it looks like I was caught out?
 

MillieLou

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Feb 27, 2020
Messages
644
@bananahead please don't be upset. This all sounds quite standard for the UK. Chances are these are honest people who want you to be happy and aren't trying to scam you.

The issue is that knowledge of well-cut diamonds is, in general, atrocious in the UK. The US is very far ahead. The jewellers probably genuinely think that both of these are good quality diamonds as they are GIA certified and are relatively high colour and clarity, and have very good / excellent cut. If you go to 99% of jewellers in the UK you will walk out with a badly cut stone, no matter how good their intentions.

There are some jewellers eg Durham Rose which carries CBI diamonds which are an exception to this rule. You can also buy from reputable online US sellers like Whiteflash, or if you want the convenience of all taxes etc sorted for you and easier returns etc, with the help of Pricescopers you can pick a nice stone from eg Blue Nile (but get help with this). The link I showed you is an example of what you could get for your money.

It's worth asking if you can apply the deposit to something else (a credit for the ring setting, a necklace / earrings etc) and starting afresh with the diamond search. You may end up financially ahead as you can get a better diamond for less than you're paying. You could also ask if they are able to call in diamonds with the parameters you give them, or that you find online, for a fee.

Personally I would take the ring back and ask the question. But ultimately it's your ring and if you are happy with it, IMHO you will still have a better cut diamond than the great majority of people in the UK.
 
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bananahead

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jul 27, 2021
Messages
19
@bananahead please don't be upset. This all sounds quite standard for the UK. Chances are these are honest people who want you to be happy and aren't trying to scam you.

The issue is that knowledge of well-cut diamonds is, in general, atrocious in the UK. The US is very far ahead. The jewellers probably genuinely think that both of these are good quality diamonds as they are GIA certified and are relatively high colour and clarity, and have very good / excellent cut. If you go to 99% of jewellers in the UK you will walk out with a badly cut stone, no matter how good their intentions.

There are some jewellers eg Durham Rose which carries CBI diamonds which are an exception to this rule. You can also buy from reputable online US sellers like Whiteflash, or if you want the convenience of all taxes etc sorted for you and easier returns etc, with the help of Pricescopers you can pick a nice stone from eg Blue Nile (but get help with this). The link I showed you is an example of what you could get for your money.

It's worth asking if you can apply the deposit to something else (a credit for the ring setting, a necklace / earrings etc) and starting afresh with the diamond search. You may end up financially ahead as you can get a better diamond for less than you're paying. You could also ask if they are able to call in diamonds with the parameters you give them, or that you find online, for a fee.

Personally I would take the ring back and ask the question. But ultimately it's your ring and if you are happy with it, IMHO you will still have a better cut diamond than the great majority of people in the UK.

Did the second set of pictures show the diamond to be complete disaster or is not as horrendous as I think it is?
 

wifelife

Rough_Rock
Joined
Sep 21, 2017
Messages
55
I think what previous posters are trying to say is that cut aside, the certificate is 10 years old on a diamond that has had a fair amount of life. The condition it is currently in may not be the condition it was in 10 years ago when the certification was completed.

Even if the cut was fantastic, you would probably be given the same advice. Do not take a (preloved) diamond home without a current certification or appraisal. If you take it home and wear it for a few days you will be liable for any damage that may occur. Considering the thin girdle, this becomes a higher risk.
 

yssie

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Aug 14, 2009
Messages
23,040
Damage may be hidden under prongs. Damage may be present on the pavilion - that you can’t see clearly by inspecting with a loupe face-up. Damage at scale that cannot be resolved with a 10x loupe may be present. The diamond itself may have been worked on, recut or repolished, in the intervening decade, and may not have the weight/proportions listed. The ring, if you’re keeping it, may be in need of repair.

You, by your own admission, are very new to buying diamonds and aren’t wholly sure what to look for. That’s perfectly okay and normal! But you need to protect yourself. We have no idea what you’ve got right now, frankly. Maybe the ring was kept in a box for ten years and is pristine.

Knowing the starting condition of the stone before you take it home means that you, and your vendor, will have a concrete and fair basis for evaluation if you wind up taking it back.
 

Dancing Fire

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 3, 2004
Messages
33,734
So why a million concerns? Thought proportions weren’t to bad and were better than the first ? Is a very thin girdle horrendously bad and could get damaged that easily? Wouldn’t I see any damage in the pictures and loupe? This is all getting me extremely anxious now ! Are the pictures that bad?
Yes, VTN girdle with a 10 yrs old report.... scram.gif
 

new-beginning

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Jun 20, 2011
Messages
181
nope, any certificate that says 'very good' really isn't very good. They are showing you another stone similar to the previous one, a 60/60 type stone. That stone doesn't match:
Table 54-57
Depth 60-62.4

Neither the table nor the depth.
 
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