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Have children, not pets.

kenny

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A post or two in the recent thread about whether to have kids made me wonder how people get some ideas into their heads ... then this article appears.

OPINION

The World Is on Fire, and the Pope Is Troubled by Your Pet​


By Frank Bruni
Contributing Opinion Writer

The pope has issues with your dog. And your cat. And your guppy, though he didn’t specifically mention your guppy. He was focused on pets in general — and on how, according to him, we’re rerouting our procreative and protective impulses toward them.

Where you see a cockatoo, His Holiness apparently sees a baby who will never be.

That was the gist of remarks that Pope Francis made two weeks ago, and while I perhaps missed my proper moment for outrage and should be moving on, I haven’t quite shaken the pointlessness and presumptuousness of it all. The world is on fire, democracy is on the ropes and he’s troubled by … your budget for kibble?

“Dogs and cats take the place of children,” he said, calling childless people with pets selfish and saying that their — excuse me, our — “denial of fatherhood or motherhood diminishes us” and “takes away our humanity.”

He referred to the “demographic winter” of declining birthrates, rued the precariousness of pension plans in societies with too few toddlers and boldly identified the culprit: Fido. Or, rather, your adoption of Fido rather than your propagation of a Francis or Frances. Because, of course, that’s the coin-toss way of the world: Heads, I get an account with Buy Buy Baby; tails, with Chewy.com.

That’s actually more insulting to parents than to non-parents, inadvertently trivializing their commitment to a child by suggesting that it could be exchanged for commitment to a cat. And it tells me that the pope doesn’t get around much. When asking childless people about their lives, I’ve never heard, “I decided on a Labradoodle instead.”

Did he get up on the wrong side of the Vatican? As popes go, he’s usually an affable one. He’s lighter on the moralism than many moral leaders. There’s often humility in his infallibility — an oxymoronic triumph if ever there was one. And if he hasn’t quite tugged the Roman Catholic Church into the 21st century, he has moved it partway into the 20th. That’s a two-century improvement on its archaic lot before him.

Pet pique isn’t some papal peculiarity. As Elisabetta Povoledo noted in her article in The Times about Francis’ little fit, his predecessor, Pope Benedict, “was such an avowed cat person” that there’s a children’s book about him with a feline narrator. According to that same article, Pope Paul II had a pet monkey, and Pope Sixtus IV a pet eagle. According to a subsequent article in Salon, Pope Pius XII had a pet goldfinch, and Pope Leo X a pet elephant, while Pope Leo XII “kept ostriches, deer, goats and African gazelles in the Vatican Gardens.”

Francis needn’t frolic with big game, but a big pooch might soften him. For the pontiff, a mastiff?
And where does a man who has committed himself to a childless life — by which I mean a Roman Catholic priest — get off measuring the humanity of others in terms of their fecundity? Francis went down this road before, back in 2014, when he groused that “an emotional relationship with animals is easier, more programmable,” while “having a child is something complex.” I’m not sure how he’s an authority on this.

And I question his strategic sense. I mean, I get the general be-fruitful-and-multiply encouragement. That has been the church’s way for a very long time, and religions are largely about presenting certain ideals to their followers. They also survive on replenished ranks.

But cheerleading is one thing, browbeating another — and it’s among the explanations for organized religion’s diminished sway in many parts these days. Four-legged creatures aren’t a drag on Catholicism. But closed-minded ones just might be.
 

kenny

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Opting for pets over children is selfish and 'takes away our humanity,' says Pope Francis​

By Joshua Berlinger, CNN
Paris (CNN)

Pope Francis has criticized couples who choose to have pets instead of children as selfish, arguing that their decision to forgo parenthood leads to a loss of "humanity" and is a detriment to civilization.

The Pope made the comments Wednesday while speaking to a general audience about Saint Joseph, Jesus' earthly father.
Francis was lauding Joseph's decision to bring up Jesus as "among the highest forms of love" when he veered into the topic of adoption and orphaned children today. He then turned his focus on couples that opt for animals instead of children.

"We see that people do not want to have children, or just one and no more. And many, many couples do not have children because they do not want to, or they have just one -- but they have two dogs, two cats ... Yes, dogs and cats take the place of children," the Pope said. "Yes, it's funny, I understand, but it is the reality. And this denial of fatherhood or motherhood diminishes us, it takes away our humanity. And in this way civilization becomes aged and without humanity, because it loses the richness of fatherhood and motherhood. And our homeland suffers, as it does not have children."

The Pope's remarks, though surprising coming from a progressive pontiff, echo the Catholic Church's teachings about the importance of couples either bearing or raising children -- and the potential demographic consequences of not doing so.
Francis said that couples who cannot biologically have children should consider adoption.

"How many children in the world are waiting for someone to take care of them," Francis said. "Having a child is always a risk, either naturally or by adoption. But it is riskier not to have them. It is riskier to deny fatherhood, or to deny motherhood, be it real or spiritual."
 

elle_71125

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Yeah, don’t worry about the massive overpopulation. A few less people born world certainly be better for the earth (just not the church’s coffers).
* coming from your friendly neighborhood (lazy) catholic.
(who also replaced kids with 4 dogs and 3 cats) :mrgreen:
 

mellowyellowgirl

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Probably should not be having children or pets if we want to do good for the environment!!!!

I think both of mine use up a lot of resources! But I'm selfish so it is what it is! We try to do stuff like not use heating or aircon, walk to the shops, I eat less (cuz I don't need to grow lol) but the kid and dog definitely use up heaps of resources.
 

seaurchin

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With so many followers, it would be great if these Popesplanations actually aligned with the pressing needs of the times to improve the world rather than doing the opposite.

Also... does he really think the demands of keeping a pet are even remotely interchangeable with those of raising a child? :???:
 
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missy

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I respectfully disagree with Pope Francis.

One, as @seaurchin wisely states. Raising animals vs children...no comparison. Cmon.
Two, maybe he should stop protecting pedophiles before he starts insisting more children need to be born. Am I the only one who sees an issue here?

Pope Francis has criticized couples who choose to have pets instead of children as selfish, arguing that their decision to forgo parenthood leads to a loss of "humanity" and is a detriment to civilization.

I challenge his statement. He is the selfish one IMO. You know what is a detriment to civilization? The way humans treat animals. That speaks volumes about our civilization or, IMO, lack of civilization.

"The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.”

untionehaslovedananimal.jpg

 

Tonks

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I am sick to death of religious zealots telling people what to do with their bodies.

No one should be dictating your reproductive choices. Ever. Obviously I don’t see eye to eye with the Catholic church in a number of places. But this is particularly weird on the pope’s part. I just want to shake people who think it’s that simple—just have a child. It’s not that simple. We haven’t structured society to support people and children are extraordinarily expensive.
 

evergreen

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@telephone89 lol'd at that. :lol:

Nobody should have kids who doesn't want them. I have kids and I don't even want them every day (but, y'know, I work hard to keep them from understanding that, at a deep level, I am TRULY much more of a cat person, and probably a more natural healthcare professional than mother).

Pope, if you really want to move barriers to people having kids who want them, make IVF free (I have a very close friend going through single-mom-by-choice reproduction... not sure if Catholicism would approve), make childcare universal and free (bc even though the Catholic church, it ain't), and make healthcare universal and free (bc not only should we support childbearing people to be healthy and strong, we need to care for their kids, too, even if - especially if! - they have health challenges).

And no, women who do not want to shall not be staying home to provide this childcare, don't even try it; wasting women's intellectual gifts surely is an affront to God.
 

MrsBlue

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I'm the worst Catholic ever but I wonder if Pope Francis has forgotten his namesake? You know, the patron saint of animals?

Also, there are children all over the world without safe homes, food, or clean water. He "should consider" giving up the gold-trimmed gowns and pointy hats and helping them instead of telling other people what to do. Is it any wonder that church membership has taken a nosedive?
 

ItsMainelyYou

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Eh, I have both, so I'm a-fiddling. Also a heathen. So, it's triple hellfires for me.
The birth rates are dangerously dropping in most developed countries for myriad very valid reasons we all know and understand. Technically we actually do need more children.
The interesting part is that we're actually not overpopulated with bodies per say(you could dump every body on the planet into the grand canyon and it looks like this
article-2617559-1D7B340800000578-447_636x382.jpg
That tiny pile is all of us and yet we are choking the life out of this ball. Our 'overpopulation woes' are purely human greed driven made issues which could be completely mitigated if we actually collectively cared about the ball we're on to the same degree and pooled our funds/resources while going green as a group effort to take care of humans and their emissions. But, we can't seem to get our ish together.
*And we'd still have plenty of money for individual wealth left over.
He's saying this for his agenda without supporting the true message of protecting what we have.
 

missy

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I've seen a few funny replies to the pope and this statement. One included how much Catholics seem to "like" children and this one from a Canadian satire site:

1642781519224.png

The hypocrisy is rich.
On all levels.

:knockout:
 

ItsMainelyYou

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Eh, I have both, so I'm a-fiddling. Also a heathen. So, it's triple hellfires for me.
The birth rates are dangerously dropping in most developed countries for myriad very valid reasons we all know and understand. Technically we actually do need more children.
The interesting part is that we're actually not overpopulated with bodies per say(you could dump every body on the planet into the grand canyon and it looks like this
article-2617559-1D7B340800000578-447_636x382.jpg
That tiny pile is all of us and yet we are choking the life out of this ball. Our 'overpopulation woes' are purely human greed driven made issues which could be completely mitigated if we actually collectively cared about the ball we're on to the same degree and pooled our funds/resources while going green as a group effort to take care of humans and their emissions. But, we can't seem to get our ish together.
*And we'd still have plenty of money for individual wealth left over.
He's saying this for his agenda without supporting the true message of protecting what we have.

Wow, I come back to read responses and notice I said actually entirely too much :lol:Put those on the Grand Canyon pile.
 

PinkAndBlueBling

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When he first said this, I texted it to my kids and some friends, with the comment about the celibate, non-parent, Catholic judging animal parents. They all thought it was funny. It just floored me, but I guess I wasn't surprised. I'm not sure I was humored by his comment or insulted.

Just STOP telling me what my body is for and why everyone should f*ck*ng have kids! Thank you.
 

Jambalaya

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And this denial of fatherhood or motherhood diminishes us, it takes away our humanity.

Did the Pope just say that non-parents lack humanity??
 

Jambalaya

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The "selfish" charge against non-parents (and they usually mean non-mothers) is mostly levelled by the desperately old-fashioned who cannot bear women being independent. How are we decide our own fates? How dare we do what we please with our lives? How dare we say no to the physical and financial rigours of raising children?

Just imagine: Women without constraints, RUNNING AMUCK EVERYWHERE! :lol-2::lol-2::lol-2::lol-2:
 

lala646

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Sorry, but that's just the Catholic Church doing what it does best. A bunch of non-parents (by choice, mind you!) telling people with a uterus what to do. :roll2: As Kenny said, they have to replenish the ranks to keep those coffers filled.
 

Polished

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I’m probably reading far too much into it but I thought Pope Francis’s pontification on babies not pets was squarely aimed at Ricky Gervais. Gervais is vocal in his atheism, hugely popular and influential. He and his partner didn’t have children, demonstrably dote on their cat and support animal charities. His latest series After Life has been an enormous hit and shows the main character Tony grieving over the death of his much loved wife. The only thing that saves him from throwing in the towel himself is that his dog needs him. Looking to his needs also helps Tony. Ricky has responded to the Pope’s remarks with his usual wit and wisdom.

I find it rather humorous as I used to tell my children when their self-esteem seemed to be going through the roof, how you can be just as fond of the beings that come into the home in a different way ie the animals to the humans. They found it hilarious.

Also give me positive human qualities any day over a lecture. Why create false guilt. What about empathy towards animals, compassion, feelings of nurturing your pet. Being unselfish, taking your dog for a walk, not when you necessarily feel like but because you know it would do them good. Bring on the pets, they’re good for us.
 

AprilBaby

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The church doesn’t make any money on pets. Children need catholic school, tithes…..
 

Jambalaya

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Agree - pets are REALLY good for us.

Why can't people just let others alone to live the lives they want? What does it matter if some people don't have children? The drive to reproduce is strong enough in most people to keep the human race going. Recent stats show that by age 45, 85% of women have birthed biological children, and only about 8% of that remaining 15% are childless by choice. So we can assume that at least some of that 15% might adopt.

I know people say that a decreasing birthrate can't support an ageing population, but surely as fewer people are produced, fewer people will be needed to support them. I know we're top-heavy age-wise at the moment and for the next x amount of years, but ultimately fewer people thanks to the declining birth rate means fewer to support in future. And that's better for the planet, too.

I don't see why people can't stop telling others what to do. It doesn't make any sense. Why would anyone want people who don't want children to go ahead and have them? Don't all children deserve to be wanted?

I can't stand all this proselytizing when it comes to children. There are certain things that I have and do and like so much that I can't imagine why others don't have and do and like the same things, but I don't go round browbeating them about it!!
 

Jambalaya

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my cats are still Catholic

I would love to see your cat going to confession! Paws together, head hanging in shame. "I'm a killer and I can't help it! Five mice this week alone!" [Stuffs tail in mouth to stop from saying any more.]

:lol-2:
 

Calliecake

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If only animals could give money to churches. Many people have realized that you don’t need religion to be a good, decent, compassionate, caring, and kind person. Many young people today view religion differently. That is reflected in the number of young people who are not affiliated with a religion. The Catholic Church needs new members. They are seeing the consequences of not dealing with pedophile priests for all those years.

@Jambalaya, Some of these women running amuck are unmarried women who use birth control and are having sex. Oh the horrors of knowing this is happening. :)
 

Jambalaya

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UNMARRIED?? Surely you jest! Where are these scarlet women? Bring them to the marketplace so that they may be publicly shamed! :lol-2: :lol-2: :lol-2:
 

Tonks

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His comments, like all comments that seek to control reproduction, aren’t about pets (or whatever the distraction du jour would be—pets are just today’s).

This is about controlling women.
 

FL_runner

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Everyone thus far has had excellent points!

I will add- it’s also frustrating because it’s so ridiculous abs shows no effort was put into understanding why the birth rate is decreasing. And the answer he came up with was “people love their pets too much” not “I should advocate for governments to improve their parental leave policies, healthcare systems, education access, etc.”. It just shows being so disconnected from peoples’ actual experience.
 

lambskin

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Isn’t Pope Frances name from St.Frances, the patron saint of animals?
 

Daisys and Diamonds

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The nuns took care of my grandma when my grandad and my mum could not anymore
they found a place for her, even though we were Methodist
they gave her love and dignity and kept her safe during the winter of her life
i wish we could have had those nuns looking after my mum when the time came
So i choose to look beyound the church's 'faults' and focus on the love instead
im also greatful i only know the love of the church, i know this is not the case for all
i am forever greatful to the church for taking care of my grandma

If my cats were human children i would absoultly send them to a Cathloic school
In NZ Cathloic schools are state funded and follow the regular state corriculum, everything else is a bonus and because they are state funded they are required to admit a certian number of non-cathloics (although as yet only humans ;)2 )

St Pope John Paul the great once said animals have souls because they have the capasity to love and God is love
(this is why my cats are Cathloic)
I know pets have real love for us, but so do other animals for each other
animals mourn the loss of a partner, child or friend sometimes of a completly different species
A mother rat does her best to keep her babies safe
Crocodiliion mothers (and some fathers) keep the hatchlings safe, some of them keeping an eye on the young'ins for several years, some species even use daycare (i kid you not - a type of caiman)
why do you think crocs and 'gators as a species have lasted longer than any other animal species on earth, because they care for their young because of love

Tibby loved his four kittens that he brought home to us when their stray mother got run over
All our pet cats have been sent to us from God when we have needed them
I want Tibby and Tinky to be in heaven with my mum and dad

anyway enough of that, it must be time to put the tea (dinner) on
So excuse me,if i get my coat and sneak out=)2
 

blingmeupscotty

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He should be more concerned with the symbols on his apparel, than continuing to over populate the earth.
 
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