Harry Winston,Graff Diamonds,High End jewelers,do they have the best diamond cutters?

[Rockdiamond]

+1 yet again Diagem!


if I like mustard, and you like mayo, why can''t we agree both are tasty.
Oh but mustard can be scientifically proven to be better tasting therefore scientifically superior to mayo. Those who love mayo just like bad tasting food. ( let''s not get into a cholesterol conversations- I''m using an analogy)

In that particular case the price per carat between a finished Cushion Brilliant and a finished Modified Cushion Brilliant may be only on the order of 10-30% different and I question why they chose those particular diamonds especially considering their huge markup.

Although specific single stones may show such variances, there is NOT a 30% market difference in price between a Cushion Brilliant and a modified cushion brilliant

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

Date: 2/22/2010 3:34:00 PM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 2/22/2010 2:55:07 PM
Author: ChunkyCushionLover

I for one am not willing to lower my standards of light performance just because someonelse has a different definition of beauty or a cutter wanted to save some weight. Sure I agree that you won't find 'ugly' stones in stores like Harry Winston, but at the same time for those prices you will more than likely find something more beautiful at a more competitive price working with someone who specializes in stones cut for light performance.
I often feel those who complain about the search for the best light performance just have a lower standard for what is 'beautiful', if the tradeoff is other more desireable features (shape, unique facet design etc) than that seems like a valid alternative viewpoint, but if its just saving weight, or cost saving, or simply what is available than thats not a worthwhile sacrifice to me.

Two things..., I dont read many 'complaints', I do read discussions & arguments in which I believe is a positive communication.
But I do feel I must admit that your highlighted comment is rather insulting!!

One of these days I'd be happy to meet you and buy you a beer to make up for all the posts of mine you take exception to

.
For now I can only say that your comments on this topic, open the door for saying that all reasonably well cut diamonds are are equally beautiful and that there is no difference between a diamond optimized for light return and other well cut diamonds. I would loath to go down that road again in yet another thread and as you can already see there are otherrs in this thread who agree with your viewpoint for far different reasons.

 

[Todd Gray]

Date: 2/22/2010 3:37:10 PM
Author: Hughrock
''It has been mentioned before that online vendors do not carry a large stock of super high priced diamonds, it is expensive to keep such inventory and difficult to move such high priced items online, but even so some online vendors have a full retail store and have access to a much larger inventory if given sufficient notice. ''

It is my hope that your opinion is correct.I have a vendor searching for a idea cut 4ct radiant or asscher with no less then vvs2 clarity,F color ideal depth & table ect ect. I want to buy a ring with a online vendor for the whole sale savings if its possible to get excellent price and quality.

Well if it''s any help, I just ran a broad search on the Rap Net MLS for Asscher and Radiant cut diamonds weighing between 3.70 - 4.99 carats, D to F color, VVS-2 and higher in clarity, with a range of Very Good, Excellent and Ideal, with GIA, AGS, HRD lab grading, with a range of girdle thickness from thin to thick and no culet with a range of fluorescence from none to medium...

And there were no available options... So then I expanded the range of polish and symmetry to include "good" and still no results... So it''s not even a matter of "cut quality", there just isn''t anything out there in this carat weight and these shapes at the moment.

I did this more to satisfy my own curiosity, even if I''d found anything "interesting" I wouldn''t be able to post it on the forum because doing so would violate the forum rules (for good reason).

 

[Rockdiamond]

One of the many things Diagem agree on is that discussion of this topic is relevant, and important.
I don;t see anyone saying that diamonds optimized for light return may not be different... just not "better" in all cases to all people.

For now I can only say that your comments on this topic, open the door for saying that all reasonably well cut diamonds are are equally beautiful and that there is no difference between a diamond optimized for light return and other well cut diamonds. I would loath to go down that road again in yet another thread and as you can already see there are otherrs in this thread who agree with your viewpoint for far different reasons.

CCL_ if you were referring to me- how could you possibly know if my reasons are exactly the same as Diagem or not?

 

[Rockdiamond]

Date: 2/22/2010 4:37:26 PM
Author: Todd Gray

Date: 2/22/2010 3:37:10 PM

Author: Hughrock

''It has been mentioned before that online vendors do not carry a large stock of super high priced diamonds, it is expensive to keep such inventory and difficult to move such high priced items online, but even so some online vendors have a full retail store and have access to a much larger inventory if given sufficient notice. ''


It is my hope that your opinion is correct.I have a vendor searching for a idea cut 4ct radiant or asscher with no less then vvs2 clarity,F color ideal depth & table ect ect. I want to buy a ring with a online vendor for the whole sale savings if its possible to get excellent price and quality.

Well if it''s any help, I just ran a broad search on the Rap Net MLS for Asscher and Radiant cut diamonds weighing between 3.70 - 4.99 carats, D to F color, VVS-2 and higher in clarity, with a range of Very Good, Excellent and Ideal, with GIA, AGS, HRD lab grading, with a range of girdle thickness from thin to thick and no culet with a range of fluorescence from none to medium...


And there were no available options... So then I expanded the range of polish and symmetry to include ''good'' and still no results... So it''s not even a matter of ''cut quality'', there just isn''t anything out there in this carat weight and these shapes at the moment.


I did this more to satisfy my own curiosity, even if I''d found anything ''interesting'' I wouldn''t be able to post it on the forum because doing so would violate the forum rules (for good reason).

Todd- a lot of NY cutters exclude their inventory from the listing site you refer to .
In fact, some of the most prestigious ones are in this group.
Lack of a certain size color or clarity on that list does not mean they are not around.
Hughrock- hopefully your seller is beating the bushes outside the internet route as well.....

 

[diagem]

Date: 2/22/2010 4:04:48 PM
Author: ChunkyCushionLover

Date: 2/22/2010 3:34:00 PM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 2/22/2010 2:55:07 PM
Author: ChunkyCushionLover

I for one am not willing to lower my standards of light performance just because someonelse has a different definition of beauty or a cutter wanted to save some weight. Sure I agree that you won''t find ''ugly'' stones in stores like Harry Winston, but at the same time for those prices you will more than likely find something more beautiful at a more competitive price working with someone who specializes in stones cut for light performance.
I often feel those who complain about the search for the best light performance just have a lower standard for what is ''beautiful'', if the tradeoff is other more desireable features (shape, unique facet design etc) than that seems like a valid alternative viewpoint, but if its just saving weight, or cost saving, or simply what is available than thats not a worthwhile sacrifice to me.

Two things..., I dont read many ''complaints'', I do read discussions & arguments in which I believe is a positive communication.
But I do feel I must admit that your highlighted comment is rather insulting!!

One of these days I''d be happy to meet you and buy you a beer to make up for all the posts of mine you take exception to

.

For now I can only say that your comments on this topic, open the door for saying that all reasonably well cut diamonds are are equally beautiful and that there is no difference between a diamond optimized for light return and other well cut diamonds. I would loath to go down that road again in yet another thread and as you can already see there are otherrs in this thread who agree with your viewpoint for far different reasons.

I am glad my comments open doors...
We cant measure beauty so yes..., "all reasonably well cut diamonds are are equally beautiful"..., well maybe not equally...

"there is no difference between a diamond optimized for light return and other well cut diamonds." CCL, no difference as in what?

Sure there is a difference..., and I actually vouch for both, at least I can vouch I am involved in both extremes and do know how to appreciate both.
I also advocate both.
You on the other hand are preaching LR Diamond cuts..., there are other tastes out there and people make their living being different as well!

 

[diagem]

Date: 2/22/2010 4:37:26 PM
Author: Todd Gray

Date: 2/22/2010 3:37:10 PM
Author: Hughrock
''It has been mentioned before that online vendors do not carry a large stock of super high priced diamonds, it is expensive to keep such inventory and difficult to move such high priced items online, but even so some online vendors have a full retail store and have access to a much larger inventory if given sufficient notice. ''

It is my hope that your opinion is correct.I have a vendor searching for a idea cut 4ct radiant or asscher with no less then vvs2 clarity,F color ideal depth & table ect ect. I want to buy a ring with a online vendor for the whole sale savings if its possible to get excellent price and quality.

Well if it''s any help, I just ran a broad search on the Rap Net MLS for Asscher and Radiant cut diamonds weighing between 3.70 - 4.99 carats, D to F color, VVS-2 and higher in clarity, with a range of Very Good, Excellent and Ideal, with GIA, AGS, HRD lab grading, with a range of girdle thickness from thin to thick and no culet with a range of fluorescence from none to medium...

And there were no available options... So then I expanded the range of polish and symmetry to include ''good'' and still no results... So it''s not even a matter of ''cut quality'', there just isn''t anything out there in this carat weight and these shapes at the moment.

I did this more to satisfy my own curiosity, even if I''d found anything ''interesting'' I wouldn''t be able to post it on the forum because doing so would violate the forum rules (for good reason).

I''ll bet that if you do the same search on Cushions (including modified) the results would differ....

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

Date: 2/22/2010 3:46:21 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
+1 yet again Diagem!


if I like mustard, and you like mayo, why can''t we agree both are tasty.
Oh but mustard can be scientifically proven to be better tasting therefore scientifically superior to mayo. Those who love mayo just like bad tasting food. ( let''s not get into a cholesterol conversations- I''m using an analogy)

In that particular case the price per carat between a finished Cushion Brilliant and a finished Modified Cushion Brilliant may be only on the order of 10-30% different and I question why they chose those particular diamonds especially considering their huge markup.

Although specific single stones may show such variances, there is NOT a 30% market difference in price between a Cushion Brilliant and a modified cushion brilliant

Not sure what you are saying RD, there is no difference or the difference is even larger?

 

[Rockdiamond]

Sorry if I was not clear: Given that we are comparing well cut stones, there is no set price difference between the two cuts.
They are virtually the same price- excepting individual stones that may be marked up- or have a seller asking a high price for other reasons.

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

Date: 2/22/2010 4:37:26 PM
Author: Todd Gray

Date: 2/22/2010 3:37:10 PM
Author: Hughrock
''It has been mentioned before that online vendors do not carry a large stock of super high priced diamonds, it is expensive to keep such inventory and difficult to move such high priced items online, but even so some online vendors have a full retail store and have access to a much larger inventory if given sufficient notice. ''

It is my hope that your opinion is correct.I have a vendor searching for a idea cut 4ct radiant or asscher with no less then vvs2 clarity,F color ideal depth & table ect ect. I want to buy a ring with a online vendor for the whole sale savings if its possible to get excellent price and quality.

Well if it''s any help, I just ran a broad search on the Rap Net MLS for Asscher and Radiant cut diamonds weighing between 3.70 - 4.99 carats, D to F color, VVS-2 and higher in clarity, with a range of Very Good, Excellent and Ideal, with GIA, AGS, HRD lab grading, with a range of girdle thickness from thin to thick and no culet with a range of fluorescence from none to medium...

And there were no available options... So then I expanded the range of polish and symmetry to include ''good'' and still no results... So it''s not even a matter of ''cut quality'', there just isn''t anything out there in this carat weight and these shapes at the moment.

I did this more to satisfy my own curiosity, even if I''d found anything ''interesting'' I wouldn''t be able to post it on the forum because doing so would violate the forum rules (for good reason).

Is that high clarity grade limiting your choices?

 

[bgray]

Date: 2/22/2010 5:35:23 PM
Author: ChunkyCushionLover

Date: 2/22/2010 4:37:26 PM

Author: Todd Gray

Date: 2/22/2010 3:37:10 PM

Author: Hughrock

''It has been mentioned before that online vendors do not carry a large stock of super high priced diamonds, it is expensive to keep such inventory and difficult to move such high priced items online, but even so some online vendors have a full retail store and have access to a much larger inventory if given sufficient notice. ''


It is my hope that your opinion is correct.I have a vendor searching for a idea cut 4ct radiant or asscher with no less then vvs2 clarity,F color ideal depth & table ect ect. I want to buy a ring with a online vendor for the whole sale savings if its possible to get excellent price and quality.

Well if it''s any help, I just ran a broad search on the Rap Net MLS for Asscher and Radiant cut diamonds weighing between 3.70 - 4.99 carats, D to F color, VVS-2 and higher in clarity, with a range of Very Good, Excellent and Ideal, with GIA, AGS, HRD lab grading, with a range of girdle thickness from thin to thick and no culet with a range of fluorescence from none to medium...


And there were no available options... So then I expanded the range of polish and symmetry to include ''good'' and still no results... So it''s not even a matter of ''cut quality'', there just isn''t anything out there in this carat weight and these shapes at the moment.


I did this more to satisfy my own curiosity, even if I''d found anything ''interesting'' I wouldn''t be able to post it on the forum because doing so would violate the forum rules (for good reason).

Is that high clarity grade limiting your choices?

CCL: it cant be helping...

 

[Hughrock]

Date: 2/22/2010 4:37:26 PM
Author: Todd Gray

Date: 2/22/2010 3:37:10 PM
Author: Hughrock
''It has been mentioned before that online vendors do not carry a large stock of super high priced diamonds, it is expensive to keep such inventory and difficult to move such high priced items online, but even so some online vendors have a full retail store and have access to a much larger inventory if given sufficient notice. ''

It is my hope that your opinion is correct.I have a vendor searching for a idea cut 4ct radiant or asscher with no less then vvs2 clarity,F color ideal depth & table ect ect. I want to buy a ring with a online vendor for the whole sale savings if its possible to get excellent price and quality.

Well if it''s any help, I just ran a broad search on the Rap Net MLS for Asscher and Radiant cut diamonds weighing between 3.70 - 4.99 carats, D to F color, VVS-2 and higher in clarity, with a range of Very Good, Excellent and Ideal, with GIA, AGS, HRD lab grading, with a range of girdle thickness from thin to thick and no culet with a range of fluorescence from none to medium...

And there were no available options... So then I expanded the range of polish and symmetry to include ''good'' and still no results... So it''s not even a matter of ''cut quality'', there just isn''t anything out there in this carat weight and these shapes at the moment.

I did this more to satisfy my own curiosity, even if I''d found anything ''interesting'' I wouldn''t be able to post it on the forum because doing so would violate the forum rules (for good reason).

I appreciate you taking the time to do a diamond search.Larger high quality stones seem to be a tough get at the moment.My vendor has said as much based on the cut quality & specs that I asked for.There are currently large diamonds available with the online vendors however most options lack either cut quality, depth,color or other spec that makes for a rare find.

Had one online rep tell me that there is no standard table or depth numbers for fancy cut stones to indicate quality cut.I happily directed him to the widely accepted authority on cut quality for diamond fancies. After he said ...OH!! ,thanked him for his time and gave the guy my best wishes.

I do think its very possible to find a high quality nice size stone it just takes much longer via online vendors and does require a lot more patience if the client''s goal is to maximize price with product. I think online vendors can be the best route to take when buying less than 3 ct because that size range is easier to find.

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

Date: 2/22/2010 5:14:34 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
Sorry if I was not clear: Given that we are comparing well cut stones, there is no set price difference between the two cuts.
They are virtually the same price- excepting individual stones that may be marked up- or have a seller asking a high price for other reasons.

RD,

First I thought I would pull a few examples, however you would simply say they had different cuts which of course they do.

Mark at ERD made the following statement I will paraphrase:

"Cushion brilliants require more rough to be cut away to extend the pavillion mains closer to the girdle, therefore they command a higher price per carat than if the same rough was used to produce a heavier cushion modified brilliant"

It doesn't surprise me in the least that the most expensive cushion per carat I have seen in colorless diamonds is the Square Cushion Hearts and Arrows,and also the one that requires the most rough to be cut away.

I have seen many trends with the same 4Cs comparing CB to MCB to support this explanation especially when looking at wholesale lists from the same vendor but well maybe you know better

.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Date: 2/22/2010 8:47:08 PM
Author: Hughrock

Date: 2/22/2010 4:37:26 PM
Author: Todd Gray

Date: 2/22/2010 3:37:10 PM
Author: Hughrock
'It has been mentioned before that online vendors do not carry a large stock of super high priced diamonds, it is expensive to keep such inventory and difficult to move such high priced items online, but even so some online vendors have a full retail store and have access to a much larger inventory if given sufficient notice. '

It is my hope that your opinion is correct.I have a vendor searching for a idea cut 4ct radiant or asscher with no less then vvs2 clarity,F color ideal depth & table ect ect. I want to buy a ring with a online vendor for the whole sale savings if its possible to get excellent price and quality.

Well if it's any help, I just ran a broad search on the Rap Net MLS for Asscher and Radiant cut diamonds weighing between 3.70 - 4.99 carats, D to F color, VVS-2 and higher in clarity, with a range of Very Good, Excellent and Ideal, with GIA, AGS, HRD lab grading, with a range of girdle thickness from thin to thick and no culet with a range of fluorescence from none to medium...

And there were no available options... So then I expanded the range of polish and symmetry to include 'good' and still no results... So it's not even a matter of 'cut quality', there just isn't anything out there in this carat weight and these shapes at the moment.

I did this more to satisfy my own curiosity, even if I'd found anything 'interesting' I wouldn't be able to post it on the forum because doing so would violate the forum rules (for good reason).

I appreciate you taking the time to do a diamond search.Larger high quality stones seem to be a tough get at the moment.My vendor has said as much based on the cut quality & specs that I asked for.There are currently large diamonds available with the online vendors however most options lack either cut quality, depth,color or other spec that makes for a rare find.

Had one online rep tell me that there is no standard table or depth numbers for fancy cut stones to indicate quality cut.I happily directed him to the widely accepted authority on cut quality for diamond fancies. After he said ...OH!! ,thanked him for his time and gave the guy my best wishes.

I do think its very possible to find a high quality nice size stone it just takes much longer via online vendors and does require a lot more patience if the client's goal is to maximize price with product. I think online vendors can be the best route to take when buying less than 3 ct because that size range is easier to find.

Hugh- whoever told you that was telling you the truth.
There are NO widely accepted standards for fancy cut stones.
There are many different charts people may use, but they only can indicate the preferences of the person who made the chart, as opposed to widely held industry standards.

IN terms of supply:
Such high quality large well cut stones are indeed quite rare- but they do exist.
If you look at the actual realities of the situation it's easy to see why you won't find the best cut large stones in higher qualities on the lists referred to by Todd.
These lists generally contain stones sitting in cutter's hands.
Stores like the ones referred to in the thread's title stock these large high dollar stones.
Once a store actually buys such a stone, it comes off the lists.

The stones purchased for these high end places are purchased looking at actual stones- as opposed to trying to buy off a list. Sometimes this creates a situation where only the lesser looking stones are left on the lists.

CCL- nothing in your "paraphrasing" speaks of 30% premiums. I wonder if the person you're quoting is happy you are doing so, but that's not my problem.
If you want to pay 30% more for Cushion Brilliants, be my guest.
It's bad advice to give folks shopping though........

 

[kenny]

Hughrock, buyer beware.

If there was vendor that sold diamonds that do not fit into the category of good cut (when it comes to high light return) they would fight against the idea of good cut.
They would challenge charts with ranges of specs for good cut.
They would not encourage you to seek ASET or Idealscope pics.

They would cleverly present their challenge in the name of diversity of cut.
They would try to discredit widely-agreed-to cut standards as merely "one of many opinions".
They will tell you other kinds of cut represent the majority of diamonds sold or have been sold for decades (Note: cutting for high yield instead of light return is more profitable so no wonder the industry loves it.)
They would encourage you to trust your eyes or your jeweler.
And they would do that here on Pricescope because educating customers about good cut does not help their sales.

Also be aware that photography lighting techniques can make poorly cut diamonds look like they are well cut.
Oh, and do a search here on any vendor you consider working with.

 

[Todd Gray]

Date: 2/23/2010 2:14:52 PM
Author: kenny
Hughrock, buyer beware.

If there was vendor that sold diamonds that do not fit into the category of good cut (when it comes to high light return) they would fight against the idea of good cut.

They would challenge charts with ranges of specs for good cut.
They would not encourage you to seek ASET or Idealscope pics.
They would cleverly present their challenge in the name of diversity of cut.
They would try to reduce cut education to ''one of many opinions''.
They would encourage you to trust your eyes or your jeweler.
And they would do that here on Pricescope because educating customers about good cut does not help their sales.

Also be aware that photography lighting techniques can make poorly cut diamonds look like they are well cut.

This cracks me up Kenny, a prosecutor would phrase it like this

Whereas the offending diamond dealer continues to challenge charts with ranges of specs for good cut.
And whereas he would encourage you to seek ASET or Idealscope pics.
And whereas he would cleverly present their challenge in the name of diversity of cut.
And whereas he would try to reduce cut education to ''one of many opinions''.
And whereas he would encourage you to trust your eyes or your jeweler.
And whereas they would do attempt to do that here on Pricescope because educating customers about good cut does not help their sales.

Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury, I implore you to regard only the facts of this case and to rule once and for all that the angle to which the crown and pavilion angles are cut, does in fact, dictate the degree of light return. And furthermore decide that the total depth and table diameter ratios do in fact also contribute to the light return of a diamond...

I love it.

 

[kenny]

 

[Rockdiamond]

Then the opposing attorney might ask:
What is your experience in the diamond business that is the basis for a challenge to a well established diamond dealer?
Can you offer a credible challenge to the ideas put forth here by both RockDiamond and DiaGem- namely that light return is only one component of a much larger picture?
Can you show ANY other journal or trade literature- including GIA or AGSL that supports the use of "cut charts" referred to here for the cut grading of Fancy Shapes?

Furthermore, this is no trial, and I am not here trying to sell anyone a diamond.

If the OP wishes to use ASET/IS/HCA/Cut Charts- that is of course, their right.
But in the name of accurate info presented to a much larger audience reading this, a balanced view is more accurate, and educational. These tools are NOT widely accepted in the trade at large.
It''s true that "the trade at large" includes some sellers pushing some amazingly bad stones , and info.
However it also includes many other sellers who put emphasis on quality of cut, and beauty.
The thread mentions some very prestigious sellers- do any of those places use the charts?

 

[Todd Gray]

Date: 2/23/2010 2:41:38 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
Then the opposing attorney might ask:

What is your experience in the diamond business that is the basis for a challenge to a well established diamond dealer?

Can you offer a credible challenge to the ideas put forth here by both RockDiamond and DiaGem- namely that light return is only one component of a much larger picture?

Can you show ANY other journal or trade literature- including GIA or AGSL that supports the use of ''cut charts'' referred to here for the cut grading of Fancy Shapes?

Furthermore, this is no trial, and I am not here trying to sell anyone a diamond.

If the OP wishes to use ASET/IS/HCA/Cut Charts- that is of course, their right.

But in the name of accurate info presented to a much larger audience reading this, a balanced view is more accurate, and educational. These tools are NOT widely accepted in the trade at large.

It''s true that ''the trade at large'' includes some sellers pushing some amazingly bad stones , and info.

However it also includes many other sellers who put emphasis on quality of cut, and beauty.

The thread mentions some very prestigious sellers- do any of those places use the charts?

The trial is weighed in the court of public opinion and the general consensus here on PS is that cut precision and cut performance matter... the only time I''ll waiver on this David is with regard to fancy colored diamonds which are cut for intensity of color and not visual performance. I have 25 years experience as a diamond buyer and over time I have fine tuned my selection process based on my experience based on evaluating thousands of diamonds for visual performance.

And the AGSL is working to develop cut rating systems for fancy shape diamonds, they''ve already done so for princess and oval cut diamonds... I''ve spoken with Lab Director, Peter Yantzer, extensively on this topic and he indicated that the only thing holding them back right now is research capital. And GIA? C''mon, it took them 10 years to even try to catch up to the standards set forth by the AGSL because the trade was coercing them not to do so (because the majority of diamonds are cut for weight and not beauty).

I''ve seen so many "Asscher" cut diamonds which are nothing more than square emerald cut diamonds being marketed under the name Asscher because that shape is trendier than a square emerald and so many of them are cut like, drek.

You''re really going to try and defend the position that proportions don''t contribute to visual performance? Hey, believe it or not, I use my eyes to buy diamonds to, but proportions definitely are a factor...

Oh and yes, I know that many of the prominent diamond houses do not list their inventory on the MLS, in fact the two companies which I work with for Asscher cut diamonds do not, they''re in Israel and Antwerp and don''t see the point, but it was worth checking...

 

[Rockdiamond]

The trial is weighed in the court of public opinion and the general consensus here on PS is that cut precision and cut performance matter..

They matter to YOU Todd, in the way that they matter to you.
They matter to other people differently.

What really seems wrong is the use of pressure techniques, personal or professional insults and other practices to silence opposing viewpoints.
How does that educate anyone?

 

[Rockdiamond]

Todd- also: Why do you repeatedly steer people away from round diamonds with tables above 58%?
If we''re using visual methodolgy- or using AGSL or GIA cut grade paramteters, 60% tables fit.

Of course it''s your right to propose stones you find attractive- but that does not make them better.
Positioning the subject as though your opinion is right, and others are wrong is a big part of this problem.
I love 60% tabled diamonds with GIA EX or VG cut grades.
Preferring 58% is a is an opinion.
Such stones are not "scientifically better" than 60% table stones judged by GIA or AGS to be just as well cut.

 

[elle_chris]

and once again an interesting thread turns sour do to personal attacks...

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

Date: 2/23/2010 1:14:49 PM
Author: Rockdiamond

Date: 2/22/2010 8:47:08 PM
Author: Hughrock

Date: 2/22/2010 4:37:26 PM
Author: Todd Gray

Date: 2/22/2010 3:37:10 PM
Author: Hughrock
'It has been mentioned before that online vendors do not carry a large stock of super high priced diamonds, it is expensive to keep such inventory and difficult to move such high priced items online, but even so some online vendors have a full retail store and have access to a much larger inventory if given sufficient notice. '

It is my hope that your opinion is correct.I have a vendor searching for a idea cut 4ct radiant or asscher with no less then vvs2 clarity,F color ideal depth & table ect ect. I want to buy a ring with a online vendor for the whole sale savings if its possible to get excellent price and quality.

Well if it's any help, I just ran a broad search on the Rap Net MLS for Asscher and Radiant cut diamonds weighing between 3.70 - 4.99 carats, D to F color, VVS-2 and higher in clarity, with a range of Very Good, Excellent and Ideal, with GIA, AGS, HRD lab grading, with a range of girdle thickness from thin to thick and no culet with a range of fluorescence from none to medium...

And there were no available options... So then I expanded the range of polish and symmetry to include 'good' and still no results... So it's not even a matter of 'cut quality', there just isn't anything out there in this carat weight and these shapes at the moment.

I did this more to satisfy my own curiosity, even if I'd found anything 'interesting' I wouldn't be able to post it on the forum because doing so would violate the forum rules (for good reason).

I appreciate you taking the time to do a diamond search.Larger high quality stones seem to be a tough get at the moment.My vendor has said as much based on the cut quality & specs that I asked for.There are currently large diamonds available with the online vendors however most options lack either cut quality, depth,color or other spec that makes for a rare find.

Had one online rep tell me that there is no standard table or depth numbers for fancy cut stones to indicate quality cut.I happily directed him to the widely accepted authority on cut quality for diamond fancies. After he said ...OH!! ,thanked him for his time and gave the guy my best wishes.

I do think its very possible to find a high quality nice size stone it just takes much longer via online vendors and does require a lot more patience if the client's goal is to maximize price with product. I think online vendors can be the best route to take when buying less than 3 ct because that size range is easier to find.

Hugh- whoever told you that was telling you the truth.
There are NO widely accepted standards for fancy cut stones.
There are many different charts people may use, but they only can indicate the preferences of the person who made the chart, as opposed to widely held industry standards.

IN terms of supply:
Such high quality large well cut stones are indeed quite rare- but they do exist.
If you look at the actual realities of the situation it's easy to see why you won't find the best cut large stones in higher qualities on the lists referred to by Todd.
These lists generally contain stones sitting in cutter's hands.
Stores like the ones referred to in the thread's title stock these large high dollar stones.
Once a store actually buys such a stone, it comes off the lists.

The stones purchased for these high end places are purchased looking at actual stones- as opposed to trying to buy off a list. Sometimes this creates a situation where only the lesser looking stones are left on the lists.

CCL- nothing in your 'paraphrasing' speaks of 30% premiums. I wonder if the person you're quoting is happy you are doing so, but that's not my problem.
If you want to pay 30% more for Cushion Brilliants, be my guest.
It's bad advice to give folks shopping though........

A range of 10 - 30% requires that some examples could be 10% while others are 30% and that is quite conservative as you can see by the examples below.

RD you are arguing my point, if the price difference is small than even more reason for stores like Harry Winston to have better selection for cut based on light performance.
I already stated that there are sometimes tradeoffs to be made within two well cut diamonds, one with the best light performance and another with other superior qualities (like shape or facet design or respecting the appearance of a historical antique cut) that choice can be a personal prefernce, however far too often the stones not well selected for light performance are just inferior and have no extraordinary characteristics (except they are cheaper) which make up for inferior light performance.

I can respect Diagem's position it is balanced he was involved in cutting the Octavia asscher designed for its light performance, in addition over the years he has been known to cut old antique style cushions coveted by collectors of vintage style diamonds where the goal is not to provide the best light return but to highlight and reproduce a look that was found in stones cut in the 1830 - 1900s. These two types of diamonds appeal to very different buyers and it is like comparing apples to oranges. However both types were carefully considered and cut with optics in mind which is a sharp contrast to stones cut to save weight.

Your position seems to be that consumers should be much less rigid in selecting for light performance and you see no value in paying any sort of premium for a well cut cushion brilliant over modified cushion cut to save weight. This makes it quite clear what kind of diamonds you sell and why you would like to call all diamonds equal.


Example 1:

http://www.bluenile.com/diamond-search?filter_id=0&track=head#diamonds_pid=LD01628505 (1.01 Carat MCB D VS2 Sym and Polish Very Good ) cost $5398

Versus

http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/6546/ (1.00 CB D VS2 Sym Good Polish Very Good) cost $7142.

Difference 24.4% Higher for CB

Example 2

http://www.bluenile.com/diamond-search?filter_id=0&track=head#diamonds_pid=LD01636680 (0.93 CB G VS1 Sym Polish Very Good) cost $6299

Versus

http://www.abazias.com/database/NewDiamondInfo.asp?stock=70842256&flag=ps (0.93 MCB G VS1 Sym Very Good Polish Excellent) cost $3808

Difference: 49% Higher for CB

Example 3

http://www.abazias.com/database/NewDiamondInfo.asp?stock=74434483&flag=ps (2.11 MCB I SI1) Cost $12368

Versus

http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/1255/ (2.11 Square Cushion HA I SI1) Cost ~$19,000

35% Difference the CB is more expensive once again.

Just in case you won't take my word for it here is a video from Jon at GOG the introduction touches on this topic of the huge impact cut has on the pricing of cushion cut diamonds http://www.vimeo.com/7579666.


----------------------------------------

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 2/22/2010 4:04:48 PM
Author: ChunkyCushionLover

Date: 2/22/2010 3:34:00 PM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 2/22/2010 2:55:07 PM
Author: ChunkyCushionLover

I for one am not willing to lower my standards of light performance just because someonelse has a different definition of beauty or a cutter wanted to save some weight. Sure I agree that you won''t find ''ugly'' stones in stores like Harry Winston, but at the same time for those prices you will more than likely find something more beautiful at a more competitive price working with someone who specializes in stones cut for light performance.
I often feel those who complain about the search for the best light performance just have a lower standard for what is ''beautiful'', if the tradeoff is other more desireable features (shape, unique facet design etc) than that seems like a valid alternative viewpoint, but if its just saving weight, or cost saving, or simply what is available than thats not a worthwhile sacrifice to me.

Two things..., I dont read many ''complaints'', I do read discussions & arguments in which I believe is a positive communication.
But I do feel I must admit that your highlighted comment is rather insulting!!

One of these days I''d be happy to meet you and buy you a beer to make up for all the posts of mine you take exception to

.
For now I can only say that your comments on this topic, open the door for saying that all reasonably well cut diamonds are are equally beautiful and that there is no difference between a diamond optimized for light return and other well cut diamonds. I would loath to go down that road again in yet another thread and as you can already see there are otherrs in this thread who agree with your viewpoint for far different reasons.

I am currently analyzing two AGS 0 cut diamonds, both from the same cutter. Visually I can see a difference between them, and not just because I have a trainded eye. They are both beautiful and incredible and different!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Visually I like one better than the other and not the one I thought I would from the reflectors, ASET etc.

My point is this, if one can clearly see the difference between two AGS 0 cuts, both beautiful, both incredible and have a preference, how can you not both see and have a preference between a top cut diamond and an above average diamond. And if you can see and have a preference, then to YOU that diamond is NOT equally beautiful.

Just my thoughts...


Wink

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

Date: 2/23/2010 2:14:52 PM
Author: kenny
Hughrock, buyer beware.

If there was vendor that sold diamonds that do not fit into the category of good cut (when it comes to high light return) they would fight against the idea of good cut.
They would challenge charts with ranges of specs for good cut.
They would not encourage you to seek ASET or Idealscope pics.

They would cleverly present their challenge in the name of diversity of cut.
They would try to discredit widely-agreed-to cut standards as merely ''one of many opinions''.
They will tell you other kinds of cut represent the majority of diamonds sold or have been sold for decades (Note: cutting for high yield instead of light return is more profitable so no wonder the industry loves it.)
They would encourage you to trust your eyes or your jeweler.
And they would do that here on Pricescope because educating customers about good cut does not help their sales.

Also be aware that photography lighting techniques can make poorly cut diamonds look like they are well cut.
Oh, and do a search here on any vendor you consider working with.

It doesn''t crack me up, I love the sharp and effective simplicity of your posting style.
I also love your camera setup and the rainbow painting you used to get the colored facets on your asschers both well selected for light performance, but that is neither here nor there.

 

[Todd Gray]

Date: 2/23/2010 3:43:52 PM
Author: ChunkyCushionLover

Date: 2/23/2010 2:14:52 PM

Author: kenny

Hughrock, buyer beware.

If there was vendor that sold diamonds that do not fit into the category of good cut (when it comes to high light return) they would fight against the idea of good cut.

They would challenge charts with ranges of specs for good cut.
They would not encourage you to seek ASET or Idealscope pics.
They would cleverly present their challenge in the name of diversity of cut.
They would try to discredit widely-agreed-to cut standards as merely 'one of many opinions'.
They will tell you other kinds of cut represent the majority of diamonds sold or have been sold for decades (Note: cutting for high yield instead of light return is more profitable so no wonder the industry loves it.)
They would encourage you to trust your eyes or your jeweler.
And they would do that here on Pricescope because educating customers about good cut does not help their sales.
Also be aware that photography lighting techniques can make poorly cut diamonds look like they are well cut.

Oh, and do a search here on any vendor you consider working with.

It doesn't crack me up, I love the sharp and effective simplicity of your posting style.

I also love your camera setup and the rainbow painting you used to get the colored facets on your asschers both well selected for light performance, but that is neither here nor there.

But that IS what cracked me up, I wasn't being sarcastic... I thought it was great.

I'm not going to argue with you David, we both know that we reside in different camps on this and we both have our place within a vast industry which serves a broad range of consumers. I just thought Kenny's post was funny and had to comment on it, expand on it, it was a wickedly amusing anecdote to an argument which has become way too droll.

 

[Rockdiamond]

ccl- Apparently Harry Winston does not use "light performance" as a parameter for purchasing.
The main office is on 56th Street and Fifth avenue here in NYC.
You could head on over and teach them......

Of course the quality of cut has an impact on the price of a diamond.
But these price differences are not related to the mere fact one is a Cushion brilliant, and the other modified.

Searching on a few of the sites you mention will produce results where you''ll see 30% difference between two ostensibly identical diamonds.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Date: 2/23/2010 4:05:59 PM
Author: Todd Gray

Date: 2/23/2010 3:43:52 PM

Author: ChunkyCushionLover

Date: 2/23/2010 2:14:52 PM


Author: kenny


Hughrock, buyer beware.


If there was vendor that sold diamonds that do not fit into the category of good cut (when it comes to high light return) they would fight against the idea of good cut.


They would challenge charts with ranges of specs for good cut.

They would not encourage you to seek ASET or Idealscope pics.

They would cleverly present their challenge in the name of diversity of cut.

They would try to discredit widely-agreed-to cut standards as merely ''one of many opinions''.

They will tell you other kinds of cut represent the majority of diamonds sold or have been sold for decades (Note: cutting for high yield instead of light return is more profitable so no wonder the industry loves it.)

They would encourage you to trust your eyes or your jeweler.

And they would do that here on Pricescope because educating customers about good cut does not help their sales.

Also be aware that photography lighting techniques can make poorly cut diamonds look like they are well cut.


Oh, and do a search here on any vendor you consider working with.

It doesn''t crack me up, I love the sharp and effective simplicity of your posting style.


I also love your camera setup and the rainbow painting you used to get the colored facets on your asschers both well selected for light performance, but that is neither here nor there.

But that IS what cracked me up, I wasn''t being sarcastic... I thought it was great.


I''m not going to argue with you David, we both know that we reside in different camps on this and we both have our place within a vast industry which serves a broad range of consumers. I just thought Kenny''s post was funny and had to comment on it, expand on it, it was a wickedly amusing anecdote to an argument which has become way too droll.

All you are saying here Todd, is that you approve of the pressure and insulting manner of certain posters- again, this is your right- but let''s be clear what is going on.
Why are other opinions besides the one you are proposing met with such insults?
Keep asking questions.

 

[Todd Gray]

All I am saying is that I have a sarcastic sense of humor and the manner in which Kenny made his statement struck me as funny, it actually made me laugh out loud... If we had never had a debate regarding cut quality, if you weren''t involved at all, I still would have laughed - it''s really that simple.

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

Date: 2/23/2010 4:07:49 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
ccl- Apparently Harry Winston does not use ''light performance'' as a parameter for purchasing.
The main office is on 56th Street and Fifth avenue here in NYC.
You could head on over and teach them......

Of course the quality of cut has an impact on the price of a diamond.
But these price differences are not related to the mere fact one is a Cushion brilliant, and the other modified.

Searching on a few of the sites you mention will produce results where you''ll see 30% difference between two ostensibly identical diamonds.

Prove it David. Give me one example where that is true.