Harry Winston,Graff Diamonds,High End jewelers,do they have the best diamond cutters?

[Hughrock]

For the last 50 + years we have seen Harry Winston & Graff Diamonds and other high end jewelers cut some of the most iconic stones in the diamond trade.Do you think high end jewelers are the premire producers of the best cut diamonds in the diamond industry? Do they really have the BEST master cutters?Is that in part the reason why they can justify their highers prices?

We know marketing plays a role in high and low end diamonds.Low end says they can produce a less expensive product due to lower expenses.But does that always result in a superior stone? What is your opinion? I''ve looked at online vendors for emerald and radiant diamonds. Not seeing any well cut 4 carat radiant diamonds thus far.Maybe the high end jewelers are better at cutting larger stones?

 

[kenny]

I think cutters for the high end and low end both do as they are told, which is to cut mostly for weight retention, not light performance.
Most people want a diamond of X weight, be it half carat or 5 carat.

Cutters cut what most people want.
Shoppers for large stones at high end retailers are just as likely to seek weight instead of good cut as shoppers of small stones.
"My sister got a 5-carat so I want a 6-carat".

I suspect the ideal-cut thing is newer market and a niche market.
I doubt Harry Winston and Graff are happy to end up with 8.7 ct when the same rough could have yielded a 10 ct stone.

I suspect most well cut stones are cut for the largest market, which is not at 5 ct.

 

[bgray]

I suspect most well cut stones are cut for the largest market, which is not at 5 ct.[/quote]



Kenny: explain this if you dont mind. I dont understand.

 

[kenny]

Date: 2/20/2010 5:08:35 PM
Author: bgray
I suspect most well cut stones are cut for the largest market, which is not at 5 ct.

Kenny: explain this if you dont mind. I dont understand.

[/quote]

If you took the average size of all well cut stones it would not be in the 5-carat range, even taking into account the rarity of large stones.
I'd guess it would be closer to one carat.

Put another way. . . if 2% of all 1-ct stones are well cut, I'd guess much fewer than 2% of all 5-ct stones are well cut.

I'm just saying finding a well cut 5 carat will be harder than finding a well-cut one carat - even taking into account the rarity of larger diamonds.

 

[bgray]

thanks Kenny. Interesting topic

 

[Hughrock]

Date: 2/20/2010 4:48:34 PM
Author: kenny
I think cutters for the high end and low end both do as they are told, which is to cut mostly for weight retention, not light performance.
Most people want a diamond of X weight, be it half carat or 5 carat.

Cutters cut what most people want.
Shoppers for large stones at high end retailers are just as likely to seek weight instead of good cut as shoppers of small stones.
''My sister got a 5-carat so I want a 6-carat''.

I suspect the ideal-cut thing is new niche market.
I doubt Harry Winston and Graff are happy to end up with 8.7 ct when the same rough could give given them a 10 ct stone.

I suspect most well cut stones are cut for the largest market, which is not at 5 ct.

You made some good points. Profit margins are at play in both high and low end markets.Since money is such a influence wouldn''t that factor give the high end dealer the advantage in having the cash to hire the best master cutters? Which might explain why they continue to be known as the go to market for the best cut larger stones? Especially for fancy cuts? Do online vendors even cut their own product or do most have to source out for the product?

As an example,GOG (online vendor) is known to be excellent for cushion cuts but few if any online vendors are known as THE place to visit for well cut Radiants,other fancy cuts,or even colored stones.But people know the reputation of the high end dealers and feel confident in finding very well cut stones.And I agree that the low end vendor is not focused on the 4 or 5 ct diamond market.

 

[kenny]

If cutting for light performance results in stones 15% (I don't know if this number is accurate) lighter, imagine the price difference between a 1-ct and a 0.85 ct.

Now imagine the price difference between a 5 ct and a 4.25 ct stone.
That missing 15% represents tons of money down the drain.
There is a huge financial incentive to NOT cut large stones for better light performance.

This is the same reason we see so many oddly-cut colored diamonds with weird symmetry.
The rough is just too precious to grind any more away than absolutely necessary.

 

[Hughrock]

Date: 2/20/2010 5:14:21 PM
Author: kenny

Date: 2/20/2010 5:08:35 PM
Author: bgray
I suspect most well cut stones are cut for the largest market, which is not at 5 ct.

Kenny: explain this if you dont mind. I dont understand.

If you took the average size of all well cut stones it would not be in the 5-carat range, even taking into account the rarity of large stones.
I''d guess it would be closer to one carat.

Put another way. . . if 2% of all 1-ct stones are well cut, I''d guess much fewer than 2% of all 5-ct stones are well cut.

I''m just saying finding a well cut 5 carat will be harder than finding a well-cut one carat - even taking into account the rarity of larger diamonds.
[/quote]I would agree with you.I think cost is at play here as well.Fewer diamond vendors have the financial resources to risk buying larger rough stones to be cut, but also there are fewer cutters who can cut well a larger rough diamond.Just the fact that smaller is easier to handle and cut would/can account for better cut diamonds being smaller. Its like shooting a basket ball in a larger hoop or the regulation size hoop.Degrees of difficulty. Since high end dealers cater to selling larger stones(more difficult to cut) would that indicate they might have the better master cutters?

 

[kenny]

I was under the impression smaller stones were harder to cut precisely

Pros?

With large stones more money is at stake so I'd think they'd want the most competent cutter since cutting involves risk.

 

[bgray]

I know when I was searching for my EC--there were few that I was interested in. most of them (5ct) were very deep. All but 2 of dozens I sifted through faced up with dimensions that matched the carat weight. I ended up buying a 4.9 carat stone that was better cut and faced up larger with good cut specs than every 5 carat I looked at

 

[Hughrock]

Some very good responses! I have a online vendor searching for a very very well cut 4 carat radiant.Let me just say he even he has admited it is not a easy find.

 

[Hughrock]

Date: 2/20/2010 5:51:11 PM
Author: bgray
I know when I was searching for my EC--there were few that I was interested in. most of them (5ct) were very deep. All but 2 of dozens I sifted through faced up with dimensions that matched the carat weight. I ended up buying a 4.9 carat stone that was better cut and faced up larger with good cut specs than every 5 carat I looked at

Bgray

Can I ask what color,clarity and cut is your emerald cut? Btw,I really do like that shape stone.

 

[bgray]

Date: 2/20/2010 6:21:25 PM
Author: Hughrock

Date: 2/20/2010 5:51:11 PM

Author: bgray

I know when I was searching for my EC--there were few that I was interested in. most of them (5ct) were very deep. All but 2 of dozens I sifted through faced up with dimensions that matched the carat weight. I ended up buying a 4.9 carat stone that was better cut and faced up larger with good cut specs than every 5 carat I looked at

Bgray


Can I ask what color,clarity and cut is your emerald cut? Btw,I really do like that shape stone.

my EC is E VS2 with a ratio (l/w) of 1.50. (62.5 depth, 62 table, 11% crown height)

 

[Regular Guy]

Just for reference,a 5 carat emerald...

 

[Gleam]

I''m curious... at what carat weight do diamonds get cut by weight more than by performance? For example, at 2.5 carats or 3 carats, they start preserving the raw material as much as possible?

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

Date: 2/21/2010 10:12:32 AM
Author: Gleam
I''m curious... at what carat weight do diamonds get cut by weight more than by performance? For example, at 2.5 carats or 3 carats, they start preserving the raw material as much as possible?

1) The big retail stores (expecially chains like Harry Winston) need large cutting houses or a number of them that can reilably provide them with their needs. I would expect price, volume produced, and reliability are important determining factors, and these criteria have very little to do with the light performance of the stones. Over the years we have seen HW cushions that varied wildly with respect to light performance. Overall HW does have some very nice well cut fancy diamonds, they have balanced the commerical factors with respectable cut standards but its more balanced than focussed on cut performance as we are here.

2) What has always bothered me in both Colored stones and in Diamonds is high end places is that don''t place nearly as much emphasis on light performance as we do here. While its true a well cut stone may cost 15%-20% more due to more rough loss than the same carat weight stone cut to maximize weight, at a markup of 2X- 3X their cost 15% seems like a small additional cost to ensure you have the best in cut and light performance available. It is possible as the general public becomes more educated high end places will be forced to adapt to the new more educated buyer whos expectations on light performance become more sophisticated.

3) I cannot speak for these stores buying purchasing departments but based on speaking with head managers at some stores like Birks and Tiffany''s I suspect some of them are still using the same old methods for selection of diamonds and colored stones they have used for over twenty years. There selection methods are not nearly as sophisticated as the tools we use here and thus they will never be nearly as picky or focussed on light performance as we are. I''d be pleased and surprised to hear if any high end chain of stores used an Idealscope or ASET for selection or rejection purposes.

4) This is an unproven theory but I would expect that high end shoppers are even less likely to be internet shopping or in getting a pricescope education when they purchase their honking large stone than those shopping for a 1 carat stone. This may be because a 5 Carat diamond even reasonably cut will still look extremely impressive, or the amounts of money involved, but most likey because shoppers of the highest end luxury good are not nearly as price conscious as someone who spends 2 months on here researching their 1 carat ring purchase.

At all ranges of weight I don''t think that these stores necessarily use the best cutters, nor is this cutter no matter how reputable and skilled they are focussing on the best possible light performance of the stone at the expense of weight unless it is a branded stone with particularly strict cut performance standards.

Even from the same cutter who focusses on a particular brand and strict guidelines, deviation in light performance from one stone to the next is quite common and the quality control and strictness of the store''s buying department is as important as choosing a reputable and skilled cutter.


Regards,
CCL

 

[Todd Gray]

Market recognition is the primary reason why prominent retail jewelry stores rally to be the ones to be recognized as the cutter of particularly large "iconic" diamonds... They are essentially paying for the privilege of being indicated as being the cutter in the press release. Interestingly enough, I''ve rubbed elbows with the diamond buyers for several prominent "high end" diamond retailers while visiting with the diamond cutters we work with and my impression is that those of us who deal in high end, top cut quality diamonds, are often working with the same cutting houses... some of us are just better at marketing than others. Personally, I bow down to the marketing genius of diamond legends like Harry Winston, Cartier and Tiffany - their marketing has succeeded in making them true icons of the industry - but much of this is due to their being "just regular jewelry stores" at the time when DeBeers began it''s media blitz to promote diamonds back in the day - these stores enjoyed prominent product placement in classic films and Hollywood media events which has given them ''product placement'' in the minds of the diamond consuming public world wide (again, I tip my hat - brilliant).

Interestingly enough, I wrote a blog on the subject of large diamonds versus well cut diamonds on my blog a few weeks ago after a rather large, but grossly undercut diamond caught the attention of my fiance and I while cruising through a local mall... Whoever cut the diamond was clearly banking on the fact that most people buy diamonds based on size and not cut quality.

I imagine that since about 40 - 50% of the weight of a rough diamond is lost during the production process AND since most people focus on carat weight as opposed to cut quality, that it makes sense for producers of larger diamonds to focus on the finished carat weight of the diamond - which might be why we see so few well cut diamonds over the 2.50 / 3.00 carat marks... More weight is lost producing an ideal cut diamond than a non-ideal cut diamond, so maybe the cutter is able to retain 60% of the original weight of the diamond rough and this is more important to him than the actual beauty of the diamond - after all, the press release for a 15.0 carat diamond is much more impressive than that for a 12.0 carat diamond - all the article will say about "cut" is actually the "shape".

 

[Hughrock]

Date: 2/20/2010 6:59:46 PM
Author: bgray

Date: 2/20/2010 6:21:25 PM
Author: Hughrock

Date: 2/20/2010 5:51:11 PM

Author: bgray

I know when I was searching for my EC--there were few that I was interested in. most of them (5ct) were very deep. All but 2 of dozens I sifted through faced up with dimensions that matched the carat weight. I ended up buying a 4.9 carat stone that was better cut and faced up larger with good cut specs than every 5 carat I looked at

Bgray


Can I ask what color,clarity and cut is your emerald cut? Btw,I really do like that shape stone.

my EC is E VS2 with a ratio (l/w) of 1.50. (62.5 depth, 62 table, 11% crown height)

The depth and table look very good on your stone compared to what I''ve seen so far in my search with online vendors.

 

[diagem]

Date: 2/21/2010 1:12:01 PM
Author: Todd Gray

I imagine that since about 40 - 50% of the weight of a rough diamond is lost during the production process AND since most people focus on carat weight as opposed to cut quality, that it makes sense for producers of larger diamonds to focus on the finished carat weight of the diamond - which might be why we see so few well cut diamonds over the 2.50 / 3.00 carat marks... More weight is lost producing an ideal cut diamond than a non-ideal cut diamond, so maybe the cutter is able to retain 60% of the original weight of the diamond rough and this is more important to him than the actual beauty of the diamond - after all, the press release for a 15.0 carat diamond is much more impressive than that for a 12.0 carat diamond - all the article will say about ''cut'' is actually the ''shape''.

I think that if already mentioned, I would like to add that the range of the Diamonds weight-loss %''s is much wider...., I would say about 40%-65% commonly (eg 60%-35% yield).

I think you are categorizing ''well-cut'' (which I presume you mean ''cut for light performance'') unfairly towards cutters who dont necessarily cut for light performance but still cut a beautiful Diamond.
Contrary to you and CCL, I actually am witness to the fact that a majority of larger Diamonds these days are cut beautifully, they must if they want to move rather smoothly in this economic environment.
Beautifully cut Diamonds dont have to be cut to maximum light performance to be beautiful!

 

[Gleam]

Date: 2/21/2010 5:25:32 PM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 2/21/2010 1:12:01 PM
Author: Todd Gray

I imagine that since about 40 - 50% of the weight of a rough diamond is lost during the production process AND since most people focus on carat weight as opposed to cut quality, that it makes sense for producers of larger diamonds to focus on the finished carat weight of the diamond - which might be why we see so few well cut diamonds over the 2.50 / 3.00 carat marks... More weight is lost producing an ideal cut diamond than a non-ideal cut diamond, so maybe the cutter is able to retain 60% of the original weight of the diamond rough and this is more important to him than the actual beauty of the diamond - after all, the press release for a 15.0 carat diamond is much more impressive than that for a 12.0 carat diamond - all the article will say about 'cut' is actually the 'shape'.

I think that if already mentioned, I would like to add that the range of the Diamonds weight-loss %'s is much wider...., I would say about 40%-65% commonly (eg 60%-35% yield).

I think you are categorizing 'well-cut' (which I presume you mean 'cut for light performance') unfairly towards cutters who dont necessarily cut for light performance but still cut a beautiful Diamond.
Contrary to you and CCL, I actually am witness to the fact that a majority of larger Diamonds these days are cut beautifully, they must if they want to move rather smoothly in this economic environment.
Beautifully cut Diamonds dont have to be cut to maximum light performance to be beautiful!

DiaGem, if I'm not confusing you with another member, I think you have some very large, beautiful diamonds yourself? I am always bowled over by a large diamond. Spectacular. I have read many comments here about people who have seen "large diamonds that look like frozen spit" making it seem a common thing... but I have many, many friends with very large stones and they are all spectacular. I don't know if they are ideal cut or not, but they are stunning.

If you have a diamond around 1 carats, what you HAVE to have for oomph is sparkle. When you have a 3+ carat diamond, the size already makes a major visual impact (unless it looks like frozen spit but I personally have not seen many highly flawed large diamonds). I don't quite understand the obsession with ideal cut diamonds this forum has... I think there is a lot of frowning on diamonds that would rate "good" versus "ideal," even, which to me is a bit over the top. Diamonds go through their lives in a variety of lighting conditions, degrees of cleanliness, etc.... regardless of what will doubtless be protests to the contrary, I highly, highly doubt the average layman can tell a "good" cut from an "ideal" cut simply by looking at it.

I'm not going to lie, I would take a 3+ carat well-cut but not ideal diamond over a 1 carat super ideal cut any day, but we all have our individual preferences.

 

[Todd Gray]

Personal preference... It''s kind of like cars, some people prefer an exotic to a four door sedan, other people prefer SUV''s and other people think they''re crazy and drive a Prius... Or we can talk about fish, some people are fine with farm grown Salmon and others insist that it be from the ocean, personally I''m kind of fond of the ones that I catch swimming up the Umpqua river which is just down the road from my house... When it comes to diamonds, I''m fond of those with exceptional cut quality because I like the zing that they offer, but my late wife Robin loved large diamonds and wore a ''nice'' 5.75 pear shape on her index finger, a 2.75 carat pear shape on her wedding ring, a 3.75 carat princess cut on the other ring finger - those diamonds drove me nuts because I considered them to be ''bluff'' stones - but people oooh''d and aaaah''d over it just the same and she was perfectly happy with them... Her preference, her diamonds... But if you''re asking me what my preference is, I like the tighter ideal cut options which I suppose is why I sell them, other vendors are free to sell what they prefer and obviously people will buy whatever appeals to their preference.

 

[diagem]

Date: 2/21/2010 9:10:18 PM
Author: Todd Gray
Personal preference... It''s kind of like cars, some people prefer an exotic to a four door sedan, other people prefer SUV''s and other people think they''re crazy and drive a Prius... Or we can talk about fish, some people are fine with farm grown Salmon and others insist that it be from the ocean, personally I''m kind of fond of the ones that I catch swimming up the Umpqua river which is just down the road from my house... When it comes to diamonds, I''m fond of those with exceptional cut quality because I like the zing that they offer, but my late wife Robin loved large diamonds and wore a ''nice'' 5.75 pear shape on her index finger, a 2.75 carat pear shape on her wedding ring, a 3.75 carat princess cut on the other ring finger - those diamonds drove me nuts because I considered them to be ''bluff'' stones - but people oooh''d and aaaah''d over it just the same and she was perfectly happy with them... Her preference, her diamonds... But if you''re asking me what my preference is, I like the tighter ideal cut options which I suppose is why I sell them, other vendors are free to sell what they prefer and obviously people will buy whatever appeals to their preference.

Thanks for making it clear...

 

[kenny]

DG, good point about good cut not necessarily being cut for good light performance.
I think here on PS good cut is almost always intended to refer to high light return.

I''ve seen gems in museums that were cut into beautiful cuts and shapes which were clearly not intended for maximum light return.

 

[Rockdiamond]

+1 DigGem- there are many PS participants who are not members of the "light performance brigade."
If there''s amazing stones in museums not cut for "maximum light return" why shouldn''t normal people aspire to having such stones?

There''s a lot of sentiment here that points to having cutters forget what they know about beauty, and simply cut to satisfy light return devices....thank heavens it does not seem likely that will happen.

There are badly cut large stones out there- but based on my experience, there''s quite a few that are beautifully cut.
The best cutters in NYC cut a lot large stones and rarely cut poorly made large stones.

 

[Paul-Antwerp]

Date: 2/22/2010 1:11:56 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
+1 DigGem- there are many PS participants who are not members of the ''light performance brigade.''
If there''s amazing stones in museums not cut for ''maximum light return'' why shouldn''t normal people aspire to having such stones?

There''s a lot of sentiment here that points to having cutters forget what they know about beauty, and simply cut to satisfy light return devices....thank heavens it does not seem likely that will happen.

There are badly cut large stones out there- but based on my experience, there''s quite a few that are beautifully cut.
The best cutters in NYC cut a lot large stones and rarely cut poorly made large stones.

So, you are saying that diamond owners should consider their own diamond-purchases as museum-replicas, and not buy them because of their sparkle?

It sounds like living in a mini-Eiffel-tower is better than in a classic house?

Live long,

 

[Rockdiamond]

I do believe many people love diamonds that look as though they may have some from a museum.
The continued popularity of older style cuts bears this out.

If it's real estate, some people may prefer modernist- other love more traditional designs.
If someone did build an "Eiffel Tower" home- I'll bet it would find a buyer......

Paul- with regards to another point raised here- do you feel well that more large stones ( say above 3cts) are cut poorly compared to carat sized ones?

 

[Hughrock]

To be honest in my short time hunting for diamonds I''ve never seen a poorly cut stone from Harry Winston or Graff Jewelers in the 3 1/2ct + sizes. Seen them over priced yes poorly cut not so far.More than likely there are some "better than average" cut stones in the hugh variety sizes(5 + carats) sometime sold by high end dealer.

But I would like to think few clients are going to hand over 6 figure amounts for investment grade diamonds only to recieve poor quality gems unless its their first time purchasing this type luxury item.Not to mention most high end houses like Winston and Graff offer the option of 100% up grades.Selling then exchanging poor cut diamonds for quality cuts would sink their reputation and bottom line.

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

Diamond beauty is very subjective, when one looks at a diamond no matter if they are expert or novice they may be considering, the girdle outline, overall size, facet size and shape, light return, length width ratio, color, surface texture, facet symmetry, optical symmetry, brightness, scinitillation, fire (i've probably missed a few here). We all may consider these characteristics differently and may have different standards for each to consider something beautiful or more attractive.

I doubt many of us have an opportunity often if ever to view a 5 Carat Infinity Round or ACA round versus a 5 carat round from Harry Winston. I am sure both would be quite beautiful and I can't say which one I'd prefer at those sizes or if I'd prefer something with more facets. At that size and larger the virtual facets are so large they can't help but be impressive.

I can say though I am very unimpressed with the small virtual facets found on the modified cushion brilliants I have seen in the Harry Winston micropave rings in the 1 - 3 carat size and this is the source of my comments. In that particular case the price per carat between a finished Cushion Brilliant and a finished Modified Cushion Brilliant may be only on the order of 10-30% different and I question why they chose those particular diamonds especially considering their huge markup. The same would go for items like a large blue sapphire with a huge window under the table which could have been cut or recut for better brilliance and still maintain the same faceup size and depth of color.

I for one am not willing to lower my standards of light performance just because someonelse has a different definition of beauty or a cutter wanted to save some weight. Sure I agree that you won't find "ugly" stones in stores like Harry Winston, but at the same time for those prices you will more than likely find something more beautiful at a more competitive price working with someone who specializes in stones cut for light performance.
I often feel those who complain about the search for the best light performance just have a lower standard for what is "beautiful", if the tradeoff is other more desireable features (shape, unique facet design etc) than that seems like a valid alternative viewpoint, but if its just saving weight, or cost saving, or simply what is available than thats not a worthwhile sacrifice to me.

EC and Radiant cuts are two cuts of diamond that are generally not optimized for the best light return, that being said a vendor who specializes and has a scientific approach to judging fancies for light performance (like GOG) would be my choice of vendor to help you with your search. It has been mentioned before that online vendors do not carry a large stock of super high priced diamonds, it is expensive to keep such inventory and difficult to move such high priced items online, but even so some online vendors have a full retail store and have access to a much larger inventory if given sufficient notice.

 

[diagem]

Date: 2/22/2010 2:55:07 PM
Author: ChunkyCushionLover

I for one am not willing to lower my standards of light performance just because someonelse has a different definition of beauty or a cutter wanted to save some weight. Sure I agree that you won't find 'ugly' stones in stores like Harry Winston, but at the same time for those prices you will more than likely find something more beautiful at a more competitive price working with someone who specializes in stones cut for light performance.
I often feel those who complain about the search for the best light performance just have a lower standard for what is 'beautiful', if the tradeoff is other more desireable features (shape, unique facet design etc) than that seems like a valid alternative viewpoint, but if its just saving weight, or cost saving, or simply what is available than thats not a worthwhile sacrifice to me.

Two things..., I dont read many "complaints", I do read discussions & arguments in which I believe is a positive communication.
But I do feel I must admit that your highlighted comment is rather insulting!!

 

[Hughrock]

"It has been mentioned before that online vendors do not carry a large stock of super high priced diamonds, it is expensive to keep such inventory and difficult to move such high priced items online, but even so some online vendors have a full retail store and have access to a much larger inventory if given sufficient notice. "


It is my hope that your opinion is correct.I have a vendor searching for a idea cut 4ct radiant or asscher with no less then vvs2 clarity,F color ideal depth & table ect ect. I want to buy a ring with a online vendor for the whole sale savings if its possible to get excellent price and quality.