Harry Winston Experience.... Not Good

[arjunajane]

Date: 3/28/2008 8:22:26 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Date: 3/28/2008 1:43:53 PM
Author: CaptAubrey
Stores like HW and Tiffany get a lot of looy-loos, so after a while the sales associates start to get sick of it, and brush off the people who don''t look serious about buying. Working for those stores is also kind of like selling Ferraris and BMWs, so some SAs let it go to their heads, and think people expect them to be a bit snooty.

I think you said it all Capt.

When Drena walsk in with her ring, tennis braclet, earrings and 6mm black pearls on she starts a sale person feeding frenzy.
In jeans and minimal trinkets (like just the 2,500 year old simple silver coin pendant) she gets ignored.

If my staff did that they would be out the door before the client.

I think a lot of brands will face a shake out over the next decade. They are mostly non scarce anymore. Tiffany are opening in a suburban shopping center near me.

Kudos to you garry for holding your staff to a higher standard. I too have worked in customer service in varying roles, and that is probably part of the reason why I find it unacceptable when SA''s are rude to myself or others. I know sales is hard sometimes, but I also don''t believe in judging anyone based just on their appearance/what they wear.

A good example of this is whats happening where I live at the moment (West Australia)with the mining/resources boom. All these 20-something year olds are doing Very well getting entry level jobs at the mines and buying houses, cars, luxury goods etc. Any of the purveyors of these goods that didn''t catch on to this situation pretty quickly would be passing up the business of these people simply because they look young or slightly scruffy- not smart!

 

[Isabelle]

Date: 3/28/2008 10:14:03 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Date: 3/28/2008 9:06:05 PM

Author: Isabelle

Date: 3/28/2008 8:22:26 PM

Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Date: 3/28/2008 1:43:53 PM


Author: CaptAubrey


Stores like HW and Tiffany get a lot of looy-loos, so after a while the sales associates start to get sick of it, and brush off the people who don''t look serious about buying. Working for those stores is also kind of like selling Ferraris and BMWs, so some SAs let it go to their heads, and think people expect them to be a bit snooty.

I think you said it all Capt.



When Drena walsk in with her ring, tennis braclet, earrings and 6mm black pearls on she starts a sale person feeding frenzy.


In jeans and minimal trinkets (like just the 2,500 year old simple silver coin pendant) she gets ignored.



If my staff did that they would be out the door before the client.



I think a lot of brands will face a shake out over the next decade. They are mostly non scarce anymore. Tiffany are opening in a suburban shopping center near me.

You definitely cannot tell the shopper''s budget based on how they dress, for sure. A good SA knows that.


Forgive me for the following, temporary threadjack:


Tiffany is starting to open more and more boutiques with a sharper focus on the ''Room 2'' type jewelry and they are scaling down on the Room 1 (fine) type jewelry. I am sure that has already been discussed on here, but they announced this plan recently and I had heard about it beforehand. I think you will have to go to the main Tiff''s (NYC, Houston, Beverly Hills, etc.) in order to get the best selection of fine jewelry. I think the Tiffany boutiques will still be called Tiffany & Co. but they will focus on more high dollar contemporary jewelry (ie fashion jewelry) like they sell in Room 2 now. I don''t totally love the idea but, I guess they make more on the Room 2 stuff b/c of volume. So many people want a ''Tiffany & Co.'' piece, and many more can afford 2 or 3 hundred dollars to get that than can afford 10 or 12 thousand dollars. From a profitability sense, I see it. From a long term brand association that holds: ''Tiffany = Superior Luxury'' , I don''t. And I say this as a trademark lawyer who spends her day dealing with branding issues.

Very wise cmments Isabelle. In you experianced opinion, if we said Tiffany has a brand value currenlty of X, or 90, or some amount on a scale. How long would it take for that premium value to be 1/2 way between say BBB or some other mid upper market brand and where they are now?

1 year, 5 years, 10? 25?

For Room 2 stuff?--I think they are more than half way there already to be honest with you. Who cares about a Streamerica ring, for example? I mean, I don''t. I don''t see it as more valuable than a Stephen Dweck piece or some other high end sterling designer.

For Room 1 stuff, the risk is in clouding the two markets so that the upscale clientele sees the Tiffany brand differently. And to that end, I think a lot depends on how well they can continue to market the fine jewelry side of the brand to their clientele. I mean, it''s an unusual business model that they have. For example, they were recently commissioned to design a pair of rare light blue diamond earrings for a wealthy Russian man and his wife. Such important pieces these were that they actually each have a name: One earring is Alexandra. The other Katarina. No joke. Then on the other side of the spectrum you have the "T & Co. 1837" ring or the "Return to Tiffany" bracelets. The largest part of that cache comes from wearing the name of a designer that makes jewelry like the blue diamond earrings. But when the brand is focused on the up market sterling silver jewelry customers, it makes you wonder if they can strike the right balance with the up market jewelry investor set. I mean, walking into a Tiffany store is like walking into two totally different worlds in one store. But what they have going for them to survive as THE US brand for the best diamond jewelry seems to me to be the following:

1. The goodwill associated with the brand. This cannot be overstated. The name, the color "Tiffany Blue", the way they wrap the box, all create an incredibly powerful brand. Now, normally that could erode away in a decade or so, except that I wouldn''t write that chapter in this case b/c they also have:

2. Some of the best jewelry craftsman working for them, and by and large when you buy a piece from Room 1, the craftsmanship is going to be outstanding; and

3. they hold a utility patent on what I think is one of the most important diamond cuts ever, "the Lucida" and they control a patent via exclusive license on a cut that everyone wants, "the Legacy". And make no bones about it, there are collectors walking around with Legacy and Lucida rings costing well over $500,000.00. I think "Novo" seems like a bit of a "No Go", but that''s ok, b/c 2 out of 3 ''aint bad. So, the patent rights protect Tiffany for another 15 years or so, which gives plenty of time to develop new patents, which brings me to:

4. They employ some of the smartest, brightest inventors and designers in the business. The guy who invented Lucida worked on it for something like 10 or 12 years. And he''s theirs. The guy who figured out how to set Lucida in a way that maximizes the stone is theirs. The one who came up with the Legacy setting is theirs. And, moreover...

5. Elsa Peretti is theirs. Paloma Picasso is theirs. John Loring is theirs. And now Frank Gehry, the most important architect since Frank Lloyd Wright, is theirs. And speaking of Lloyd Wright, they have a deal with his Foundation to create vases and the like using his name as a mark as well. And let''s not forget the person who many consider to be the most important jewelry designer of the 20th century, Jean Schlumberger, whose creations are all owned by Tiffany. All of these people create powerful, and instantly recognizable sub-brands within a powerhouse jeweler; and...

6.Even people who aren''t theirs, like the guy who invented the Legacy cut, brought his work to them FIRST. Why? Because of the brand identity and the history. And speaking of history...

6. They are holding on to the history by writing books about Tiffany almost at a rate of one a year, so long as John Loring or whomever takes his place can keep it up. So, when you go in and purchase sterling silver service such as "Audubon", you are buying history inasmuch as it is a pattern that first came into being in 1871. And a knowledgeable S/A will tell you that. But what takes it to the next level is that they have *present day* collector''s items like the Peretti Bone Pitcher in sterling silver, a piece widely considered to be a collector''s item whose value will only increase over time. All of the history creates a certain gravitas that will probably continue to flourish so long as Tiffany can hire the best designers, inventors, and so on.

So ultimately, I think the brand will evolve in some ways the way the Ralph Lauren brand has evolved. You have the Ralph Lauren you can buy at the department store, and then you have the Ralph Lauren "purple label" that you can only get in their boutique, and where a blouse will cost $1000.00 or more. Now do the people in the dept. store KNOW about "purple label"? Probably not. But do the customers who DO buy purple label stay away from it simply b/c there are lower end RL''s for sale in other parts of the mall? No, they don''t.

What do I think will happen? I think Tiffany will continue to create a lot of yearning in people who get seduced by the brand gravitas, buy some up market sterling jewelry, dream of owning a piece of fine jewelry, and then suffer severe sticker shock when they see that something with a total carat weight of 1.00 in pave 1 point diamonds costs $15,000.00 or what have you. But they aren''t who Tiffany is marketing to anyway when it comes to the Room 1 stuff. Not *really*. Tiffany''s "real" Room One customers aren''t me, they aren''t people who can spend $10 or $20 or even $30K on a diamond engagement ring. The "real" Room 1 customers are the ones who can go in and drop $200K on a cocktail ring sitting on the bottom rung of the ladder, and people who can commission "the Alexandra" and "the Katarina" sitting on the top. And for those customers, they have little private parties all the time, and what have you. They get invited to special showings and events, and so on. Every now and then they will put the Tiffany diamond on tour or some other museum pieces and once again they will dive down into the considerably deep pool of history they possess and get everyone feeling the love for Tiffany. And so long as they continue to market their own version of the "purple label" to the real Room 1 Customers, they will be ok. But if they don''t, they''re going to have some trouble.

Considering the amount of money that company has, and the raw talent it employs, and the IP it controls, I would bet that they will figure out the way to do it, though.

If I had my druthers, they would drop Room 2 except for sterling, china, crystal, and the like. I do seriously think they run the risk of losing brand gravitas with the typical engagement ring buyer. --I know this is where you are going, and I AGREE. But I am pretty sure that they are okay with that b/c the profit in Room 1 isn''t coming from the $10K purchase. It isn''t coming from the $20K purchase. It''s coming from purchases that are significantly,exponentially higher than that. So, ultimately, I think it''s good news for the jewelers who are competing for the buyer who isn''t going to spend over $40,000.00 on an engagement ring, particularly when that buyer isn''t wanting a cut that Tiffany controls the patent on. I think there is a definite window for jewelers like WF and GOG and Leon to get in there and take the Room 1 Customers for whom Room 1 is really just a fantasy outside of their reach. But it will only happen if you guys can demonstrably prove that your workmanship is on par with theirs. And to that end, I think Tiffany serves a good purpose in inspiring their competition to create better work and cut better stones. From the work I have seen posted on PS, it seems to me that many of these jewelers have indeed risen to the challenge.

 

[whatmeworry]

nice post Isabelle, good analysis.

 

[iheartscience]

Date: 3/29/2008 12:03:39 AM
Author: whatmeworry
nice post Isabelle, good analysis.

Ditto! A very interesting post and I agree with you completely!

 

[Isabelle]

Well thanks Guys. Maybe that is why Tiff is starting to open all the Room 2 type boutiques. Maybe they are trying to capture more Room 2 customers out in the ''burbs, and recreate the exclusivity of the stores carrying Room 1 merchandise. Maybe they are using the RL model. Just a thought.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Isabelle you are gem!!!!

No arguements there, except for my area of specialty

Date: 3/28/2008 11:38:37 PM
Author: Isabelle

3. they hold a utility patent on what I think is one of the most important diamond cuts ever, ''the Lucida'' and they control a patent via exclusive license on a cut that everyone wants, ''the Legacy''. And make no bones about it, there are collectors walking around with Legacy and Lucida rings costing well over $500,000.00. I think ''Novo'' seems like a bit of a ''No Go'', but that''s ok, b/c 2 out of 3 ''aint bad. So, the patent rights protect Tiffany for another 15 years or so, which gives plenty of time to develop new patents, which brings me to:

4. They employ some of the smartest, brightest inventors and designers in the business. The guy who invented Lucida worked on it for something like 10 or 12 years. And he''s theirs. The guy who figured out how to set Lucida in a way that maximizes the stone is theirs. The one who came up with the Legacy setting is theirs. And, moreover...

You may have noticed our very own strmrdr, here on Pricescope, has been very active with designing new cuts. He is using a beta tool that is part of DiamCalc. The major upgrade of that cut design aspect of DiamCalc is now being tested. Storm will have a copy to play with too.

Once that product is released in a month or so, there will be manuy people with the same or more capacity of the undoubtably very talented Mr Greeff. Further more there will be more advisory control on the optimal proportions for each piece of rough diamond (for example the recent emerald cut that DiaGem and storm worked on together) so that the quality consistancy issues that I have seen in plenty of Lucida''s are eradicated or at least minimized.

That is what technology does, it makes it possible for many people to perform at expert levels.
the new wave of inventors of new cuts will need weeks not years.


But other than that little aspect of your answer to my question Isabelle, I thank you for your wisdom and clear thinking predictions

 

[jewelerman]

Because I have been in the jewelry trade for years I visit other stores to observe service and because I enjoy shopping and talking shop with people in the trade.I have had fair to exceptional service at Tiffany & company....exceptional service in Hawii actually propted me to pay retail for a sterling catalog item that I easily could have bought a like item wholesale.Once in Houston, Texas the employee asked if I was in the trade and responded with bringing out gems and jewelry that were not on display but being held for a client to be viewed at a private showing.I would never buy at Cartier because of the rude behavior I encountered while on vacation and shopping at one of their Boutiques in Hawii.I was really looking foward to talking with these people but they were ice cold and arregant,not even bothering to get off their stools when I asked where i could find a particular item in their store. One store that I found very friendlyand professional was Fred leightons in Los Vegas Nevada.They had the most amazing selection of vintage and antique jewelry.

 

[Isabelle]

Date: 3/29/2008 1:15:55 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
Isabelle you are gem!!!!


No arguements there, except for my area of specialty

Date: 3/28/2008 11:38:37 PM

Author: Isabelle


3. they hold a utility patent on what I think is one of the most important diamond cuts ever, ''the Lucida'' and they control a patent via exclusive license on a cut that everyone wants, ''the Legacy''. And make no bones about it, there are collectors walking around with Legacy and Lucida rings costing well over $500,000.00. I think ''Novo'' seems like a bit of a ''No Go'', but that''s ok, b/c 2 out of 3 ''aint bad. So, the patent rights protect Tiffany for another 15 years or so, which gives plenty of time to develop new patents, which brings me to:


4. They employ some of the smartest, brightest inventors and designers in the business. The guy who invented Lucida worked on it for something like 10 or 12 years. And he''s theirs. The guy who figured out how to set Lucida in a way that maximizes the stone is theirs. The one who came up with the Legacy setting is theirs. And, moreover...

You may have noticed our very own strmrdr, here on Pricescope, has been very active with designing new cuts. He is using a beta tool that is part of DiamCalc. The major upgrade of that cut design aspect of DiamCalc is now being tested. Storm will have a copy to play with too.


Once that product is released in a month or so, there will be manuy people with the same or more capacity of the undoubtably very talented Mr Greeff. Further more there will be more advisory control on the optimal proportions for each piece of rough diamond (for example the recent emerald cut that DiaGem and storm worked on together) so that the quality consistancy issues that I have seen in plenty of Lucida''s are eradicated or at least minimized.


That is what technology does, it makes it possible for many people to perform at expert levels.

the new wave of inventors of new cuts will need weeks not years.



But other than that little aspect of your answer to my question Isabelle, I thank you for your wisdom and clear thinking predictions

I have been sitting here waiting for you to reply. I can''t tell you how INCREDIBLE I find what you have written. I have guessed , maybe wrongly, that DiaGem is the Legacy inventor, and StrmDoor is the inventor of Asscher or has some other deep, deep knowledge of cutting. No one has confirmed or denied, and in a lot of ways, I prefer the mystery. LOL I LOVE reading your threads, like the debates over what is happening in the diamond industry or reading DiaGem lament the fact that he thinks the industry isn''t evolving quickly enough. I think, "How can he say that with Lucida, with Legacy, with all that''s happened online in terms of educated consumers?" But then I realize that I am listening in to a conversation between the real insiders: The experts who have changed and are changing the very industry that has fascinated me for so long. To me, it''s incredible to see how the insiders *see this industry*. I feel so happy to be able to read your insights and see what the best cutters, inventors, vendors all think. As for the DiamCalc, no I didn''t previously understand what that was when I read you guys mention it. But now that you have explained it, I am not at all surprised that you, Storm, DiaGem, Wink Jones, Old Miner, etc. are on the forefront b/c you guys rock.--No pun intended. And if this invention allows cuts to be perfected sooner, then I predict that only the most creative geniuses will have the cuts that survive and thrive. I hope we can talk more about more issues in the future. I guess I will get off the computer now. Good night!

 

[lisa1.01fvs1]

Forgive me for the following, temporary threadjack:


Tiffany is starting to open more and more boutiques with a sharper focus on the ''Room 2'' type jewelry and they are scaling down on the Room 1 (fine) type jewelry. I am sure that has already been discussed on here, but they announced this plan recently and I had heard about it beforehand. I think you will have to go to the main Tiff''s (NYC, Houston, Beverly Hills, etc.) in order to get the best selection of fine jewelry. I think the Tiffany boutiques will still be called Tiffany & Co. but they will focus on more high dollar contemporary jewelry (ie fashion jewelry) like they sell in Room 2 now. I don''t totally love the idea but, I guess they make more on the Room 2 stuff b/c of volume. So many people want a ''Tiffany & Co.'' piece, and many more can afford 2 or 3 hundred dollars to get that than can afford 10 or 12 thousand dollars. From a profitability sense, I see it. From a long term brand association that holds: ''Tiffany = Superior Luxury'' , I don''t. And I say this as a trademark lawyer who spends her day dealing with branding issues.

Very wise cmments Isabelle. In you experianced opinion, if we said Tiffany has a brand value currenlty of X, or 90, or some amount on a scale. How long would it take for that premium value to be 1/2 way between say BBB or some other mid upper market brand and where they are now?

1 year, 5 years, 10? 25?

For Room 2 stuff?--I think they are more than half way there already to be honest with you. Who cares about a Streamerica ring, for example? I mean, I don''t. I don''t see it as more valuable than a Stephen Dweck piece or some other high end sterling designer.

For Room 1 stuff, the risk is in clouding the two markets so that the upscale clientele sees the Tiffany brand differently. And to that end, I think a lot depends on how well they can continue to market the fine jewelry side of the brand to their clientele. I mean, it''s an unusual business model that they have. For example, they were recently commissioned to design a pair of rare light blue diamond earrings for a wealthy Russian man and his wife. Such important pieces these were that they actually each have a name: One earring is Alexandra. The other Katarina. No joke. Then on the other side of the spectrum you have the ''T & Co. 1837'' ring or the ''Return to Tiffany'' bracelets. The largest part of that cache comes from wearing the name of a designer that makes jewelry like the blue diamond earrings. But when the brand is focused on the up market sterling silver jewelry customers, it makes you wonder if they can strike the right balance with the up market jewelry investor set. I mean, walking into a Tiffany store is like walking into two totally different worlds in one store. But what they have going for them to survive as THE US brand for the best diamond jewelry seems to me to be the following:

1. The goodwill associated with the brand. This cannot be overstated. The name, the color ''Tiffany Blue'', the way they wrap the box, all create an incredibly powerful brand. Now, normally that could erode away in a decade or so, except that I wouldn''t write that chapter in this case b/c they also have:

2. Some of the best jewelry craftsman working for them, and by and large when you buy a piece from Room 1, the craftsmanship is going to be outstanding; and

3. they hold a utility patent on what I think is one of the most important diamond cuts ever, ''the Lucida'' and they control a patent via exclusive license on a cut that everyone wants, ''the Legacy''. And make no bones about it, there are collectors walking around with Legacy and Lucida rings costing well over $500,000.00. I think ''Novo'' seems like a bit of a ''No Go'', but that''s ok, b/c 2 out of 3 ''aint bad. So, the patent rights protect Tiffany for another 15 years or so, which gives plenty of time to develop new patents, which brings me to:

4. They employ some of the smartest, brightest inventors and designers in the business. The guy who invented Lucida worked on it for something like 10 or 12 years. And he''s theirs. The guy who figured out how to set Lucida in a way that maximizes the stone is theirs. The one who came up with the Legacy setting is theirs. And, moreover...

5. Elsa Peretti is theirs. Paloma Picasso is theirs. John Loring is theirs. And now Frank Gehry, the most important architect since Frank Lloyd Wright, is theirs. And speaking of Lloyd Wright, they have a deal with his Foundation to create vases and the like using his name as a mark as well. And let''s not forget the person who many consider to be the most important jewelry designer of the 20th century, Jean Schlumberger, whose creations are all owned by Tiffany. All of these people create powerful, and instantly recognizable sub-brands within a powerhouse jeweler; and...

6.Even people who aren''t theirs, like the guy who invented the Legacy cut, brought his work to them FIRST. Why? Because of the brand identity and the history. And speaking of history...

6. They are holding on to the history by writing books about Tiffany almost at a rate of one a year, so long as John Loring or whomever takes his place can keep it up. So, when you go in and purchase sterling silver service such as ''Audubon'', you are buying history inasmuch as it is a pattern that first came into being in 1871. And a knowledgeable S/A will tell you that. But what takes it to the next level is that they have *present day* collector''s items like the Peretti Bone Pitcher in sterling silver, a piece widely considered to be a collector''s item whose value will only increase over time. All of the history creates a certain gravitas that will probably continue to flourish so long as Tiffany can hire the best designers, inventors, and so on.

So ultimately, I think the brand will evolve in some ways the way the Ralph Lauren brand has evolved. You have the Ralph Lauren you can buy at the department store, and then you have the Ralph Lauren ''purple label'' that you can only get in their boutique, and where a blouse will cost $1000.00 or more. Now do the people in the dept. store KNOW about ''purple label''? Probably not. But do the customers who DO buy purple label stay away from it simply b/c there are lower end RL''s for sale in other parts of the mall? No, they don''t.

What do I think will happen? I think Tiffany will continue to create a lot of yearning in people who get seduced by the brand gravitas, buy some up market sterling jewelry, dream of owning a piece of fine jewelry, and then suffer severe sticker shock when they see that something with a total carat weight of 1.00 in pave 1 point diamonds costs $15,000.00 or what have you. But they aren''t who Tiffany is marketing to anyway when it comes to the Room 1 stuff. Not *really*. Tiffany''s ''real'' Room One customers aren''t me, they aren''t people who can spend $10 or $20 or even $30K on a diamond engagement ring. The ''real'' Room 1 customers are the ones who can go in and drop $200K on a cocktail ring sitting on the bottom rung of the ladder, and people who can commission ''the Alexandra'' and ''the Katarina'' sitting on the top. And for those customers, they have little private parties all the time, and what have you. They get invited to special showings and events, and so on. Every now and then they will put the Tiffany diamond on tour or some other museum pieces and once again they will dive down into the considerably deep pool of history they possess and get everyone feeling the love for Tiffany. And so long as they continue to market their own version of the ''purple label'' to the real Room 1 Customers, they will be ok. But if they don''t, they''re going to have some trouble.

Considering the amount of money that company has, and the raw talent it employs, and the IP it controls, I would bet that they will figure out the way to do it, though.

If I had my druthers, they would drop Room 2 except for sterling, china, crystal, and the like. I do seriously think they run the risk of losing brand gravitas with the typical engagement ring buyer. --I know this is where you are going, and I AGREE. But I am pretty sure that they are okay with that b/c the profit in Room 1 isn''t coming from the $10K purchase. It isn''t coming from the $20K purchase. It''s coming from purchases that are significantly,exponentially higher than that. So, ultimately, I think it''s good news for the jewelers who are competing for the buyer who isn''t going to spend over $40,000.00 on an engagement ring, particularly when that buyer isn''t wanting a cut that Tiffany controls the patent on. I think there is a definite window for jewelers like WF and GOG and Leon to get in there and take the Room 1 Customers for whom Room 1 is really just a fantasy outside of their reach. But it will only happen if you guys can demonstrably prove that your workmanship is on par with theirs. And to that end, I think Tiffany serves a good purpose in inspiring their competition to create better work and cut better stones. From the work I have seen posted on PS, it seems to me that many of these jewelers have indeed risen to the challenge.

First off a well articulated and thorough analysis....

The only caveat: do you really think the 10K-20K-30K aren''t their "meat and potatoes" customers that keep the books balanced at the end of the quarter?

I do.

I think just as there are the high volume sales in Rm#2 to compensate for the fine jewelry section, there are high volume sales for the 10-40K people holding up RM #1''s bottom line.

I don''t see why the meat and potatoes are going to go running off into the internet when they know all of this anyway. They don''t care.

It''s a completely different mindset altogether.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 3/29/2008 1:34:46 AM
Author: Isabelle


I have been sitting here waiting for you to reply. I can''t tell you how INCREDIBLE I find what you have written. I have guessed , maybe wrongly, that DiaGem is the Legacy inventor, and StrmDoor is the inventor of Asscher or has some other deep, deep knowledge of cutting. No one has confirmed or denied, and in a lot of ways, I prefer the mystery.

I wont ruin the mystery by saying im a consumer and not in the trade

but its StormRider and ya can call me storm

sweet dreams

 

[monarch64]

Isabelle, your posts are both insightful and interesting to read...I''m hooked on this thread!

 

[Imdanny]

So I guess a gold or platinum Lucida wedding band is Room 2. Oh dear, oh dear.

 

[whatmeworry]

Date: 3/29/2008 2:10:39 AM
Author: Imdanny
So I guess a gold or platinum Lucida wedding band is Room 2. Oh dear, oh dear.

Yup we''re all in Room 2, at least I know I am. But if someone out there has been to Room 1, where are the pictures? And which Blue Book item did you buy?

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 3/29/2008 2:10:39 AM
Author: Imdanny
So I guess a gold or platinum Lucida wedding band is Room 2. Oh dear, oh dear.

Ballroom 2

Where the weddings happen

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 3/29/2008 1:34:46 AM
Author: Isabelle


I have been sitting here waiting for you to reply. I can''t tell you how INCREDIBLE I find what you have written. I have guessed , maybe wrongly, that DiaGem is the Legacy inventor, and StrmDoor is the inventor of Asscher or has some other deep, deep knowledge of cutting. No one has confirmed or denied, and in a lot of ways, I prefer the mystery. LOL I LOVE reading your threads, like the debates over what is happening in the diamond industry or reading DiaGem lament the fact that he thinks the industry isn''t evolving quickly enough.

actually Isabelle, I am thinking you are the insider? Surely you are managing Tiffany & Co trademarks? You have a deep insight as a marketer and a person who understands the business as well as the sparkly trinkets

I think, ''How can he say that with Lucida, with Legacy, with all that''s happened online in terms of educated consumers?'' But then I realize that I am listening in to a conversation between the real insiders: The experts who have changed and are changing the very industry that has fascinated me for so long. To me, it''s incredible to see how the insiders *see this industry*. I feel so happy to be able to read your insights and see what the best cutters, inventors, vendors all think. As for the DiamCalc, no I didn''t previously understand what that was when I read you guys mention it. But now that you have explained it, I am not at all surprised that you, Storm, DiaGem, Wink Jones, Old Miner, etc. are on the forefront b/c you guys rock.--No pun intended. And if this invention allows cuts to be perfected sooner, then I predict that only the most creative geniuses will have the cuts that survive and thrive.
It has long been my dream to bring better and best looking diamonds to the market by finding ways for cutters to optimize weight (if they dont they go broke) and beauty at the same time. Diamond rough inherently demands to be cut for weight because that is the only thing no one argues about - it is the most highly valued of the 4 C''s.
For anyone reading this - look at the weight distribution chart Andrey ran for us from the live Pricescope listings - it is in the Carat weight section of the knowledge tutorial: http://diamonds.pricescope.com/tutor/availability_carat_distribution_chart_2007.jpg

So what we have to look forward to is people like Storm and DG inventing 5 new cuts a year, and you girls will probably need to find 3 new additional lovers to satisfy your desire

(for diamonds that is

), or get a part time job

Sergey who invented DiamCalc has a vision of annual fashion parades for the latest releases of diamonds. WOW!
I hope we can talk more about more issues in the future. I guess I will get off the computer now. Good night!

 

[Isabelle]

Hi Lisa, I DO think that the 10 or 20 K purchases contribute to the Tiff. bottom line. For sure, they do. And as luck would have it, those suburban boutiques WILL carry some diamond jewelery that you would find in Room 1: Like diamonds by the yard, or Some of the Tiffany Legacy necklaces, the Swing line, and of course, maybe they will even have some engagement rings to boot. But not the $200K variety. Not to my understanding. So essentially, they will continue to capture that group of purchasers, and make it easier for that group of purchasers to "capture" a Tiffany piece.

Storm, I missed the "r" between the "m" and the "d".--I apologize! I thank you for keeping the mystery going, and I hope you won''t mind if I ask you the occasional question. I have to tell you, I LOVE Asschers.

Thanks Monarch! I feel the same way about your posts.

Imdanny, a Lucida wedding band is not a "Room 2", though I am guessing the new boutiques will have them. There are lots of $250,000.00 Lucida engagement rings sitting right next to a Lucida wedding band.

Whatmeworry, we have all been to Room 1 if we have been in a Tiffany. The question is: Who is the high end Room 1 customer? I''m not. Wish I were. LOL

 

[Isabelle]

Date: 3/29/2008 5:17:10 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)




actually Isabelle, I am thinking you are the insider? Surely you are managing Tiffany & Co trademarks? You have a deep insight as a marketer and a person who understands the business as well as the sparkly trinkets

It has long been my dream to bring better and best looking diamonds to the market by finding ways for cutters to optimize weight (if they dont they go broke) and beauty at the same time. Diamond rough inherently demands to be cut for weight because that is the only thing no one argues about - it is the most highly valued of the 4 C''s.

For anyone reading this - look at the weight distribution chart Andrey ran for us from the live Pricescope listings - it is in the Carat weight section of the knowledge tutorial: http://diamonds.pricescope.com/tutor/availability_carat_distribution_chart_2007.jpg


So what we have to look forward to is people like Storm and DG inventing 5 new cuts a year, and you girls will probably need to find 3 new additional lovers to satisfy your desire

(for diamonds that is

), or get a part time job

Sergey who invented DiamCalc has a vision of annual fashion parades for the latest releases of diamonds. WOW!

Gary, I wish I could say I handle the Tiffany TM work. I handle a lot of companies, some large some small. And to do theirs would be awesome b/c I could combine my love of Tiffany with my profession. But what I have learned from Tiffany I have learned from reading lots of books, attending lectures, asking questions at those lectures. I have had the opportunity to chat with John Loring about a couple of things at public talks and afterwards. I have also made friends with many S/A''s who have worked for the company for decades so they know me. When I won my original tanzanite ad on ebay, they asked me to give them a copy for the Houston store so they could have it in the store archives. Just stuff like that. I have met some of the NY management before. I have to say they are an incredible group of people, which is why I KNOW for sure that if they knew that any S/A was acting rudely to a customer, especially one like Legacy Girl, they would cringe. But anyway...no, all of my knowledge about your industry comes from a real passion for jewelry. The appreciation for the art of jewelry is in a sense my alter ego. I collect books on it, I attend museum exhibits on it, and in some ways I dream of one day working in the industry. It''s funny b/c no one who knows me thinks I could ever be anything other than a lawyer. It is so much a part of who I am. And that is probably true b/c I love to help my clients achieve their goals and protect their hard work, through brand protection. And in a way, Tiffany represents a real genius in terms of branding and marketing and brand development. I mean, they''ve got me, hook, line, and sinker. But like I said before, a large part of what works for their business model is the authenticity behind the name. Too few people acknowledge that. There is something wonderful about owning the ORIGINAL Tiffany solitaire. Or the ORIGINAL Legacy. It is like owning the Rembrandt instead of the copy. Anyway, that''s how I see it. If their work and their new ideas weren''t so fantastic, there wouldn''t be so many people following their lead.

I am onboard with your dreams of better cuts and optimization of weight. And if Storm and DG keep inventing cuts like the ones I fell in love with, well, all I can say is I better continue my success so I can afford to keep up with them! LOL I especially like Sergey''s idea for the diamond fashion parade. Sounds scrumptious.

 

[diamondfan]

My ring is from Tiffany's. I guess I am a room 1 customer, I shop at the NY store but mostly in King of Prussia, which is 15 minutes from my home. They bring in things if I want to see them, from their larger flagship stores. I have gotten two rings, studs and they made an eternity band for me that I passed on because I did not love the setting.

I think there has been some debate as to the direction Tiffany's is headed...on the one hand, people associate it with certain things, but then, go in on a Saturday and it seems to be a lot of keychains and silver baubles being sold. I agree with your analysis, but if I buy Collection RL or purple label, I know what I am getting and it does not bother me to go to the mall and see Lauren. They are different, and if I decide to buy from RL or Armani or Marc Jacobs, I am aware of their bridge lines. I do not mind that someone can walk into Tiffany's and spend 500,000 or 500.00, as long as they have things that I like. I certainly have gone in there to buy some silver for summer, or to buy gifts for bat mitzvahs or babies, and I think it is nice that they do have the spectrum of items they do. All of their merchandise, even a pen, is lovely quality, and there is a certain caliber you can expect to get there. I know some people who feel they are losing their cache with some of these items, but it does not bother me, not withstanding what retail advisors might say, since I am only a consumer. It might work to make it sort of two distinct entities, the blue book stuff and the more mainstream, but since I live near NY I am assured I can always get in and see things that I want, whereas it might make it tougher for customers who do not have access to the higher end merchandise but want to see it or buy it.

 

[Isabelle]

Date: 3/29/2008 12:21:26 PM
Author: diamondfan
My ring is from Tiffany''s. I guess I am a room two customer, I shop at the NY store but mostly in King of Prussia, which is 15 minutes from my home.


I think there has been some debate as to the direction Tiffany''s is headed...on the one hand, people associate it with certain things, but then, go in on a Saturday and it seems to be a lot of keychains and silver baubles being sold. I agree with your analysis, if I buy Collection RL or purple label, I know what I am getting and it does not bother me to go to the mall and see Lauren. They are different. I do not mind that someone can walk into Tiffany''s and spend 500,000 or 500.00, as long as they have things that I like. I certainly have gone in there to buy some silver for summer, or to buy gifts for bat mitzvahs or babies, and I think it is nice that they do have the spectrum of items they do. All of their merchandise, even a pen, is lovely quality, and there is a certain caliber you can expect to get there. I know some people who feel they are losing their cache with some of these items, but it does not bother me, not withstanding what retail advisors might say, since I am only a consumer.

You make some excellent points. None of the stuff they sell is poor quality, and I too have purchased baby gifts there. It''s why Room 2 does so well.

 

[diamondfan]

I edited my post, I am a room 1 customer mostly...but I do shop in the gift areas as well!

 

[lisa1.01fvs1]

This thread is great!

Isabelle, Diamondfan, Garry, etc wonderful anayses.

Just an aside that might be interesting. Our personal shopper at Costa Mesa was wearing a 2 ct. RB. She was very forthcoming and even let me try on her e-ring and WB!

OK I digress.....I know she got the 30% discount but said she simply "ordered" her ring from the computer and didn''t bother to look at it beforehand.

I was struck by this - perhaps she was lying but I don''t think so. She also told me it cost 52K. She said "It''s a F/VS2 and it''s Tiffany''s so I knew it was OK."

I think the the brand brainwashing goes very deep or maybe her job was on the line.

Or maybe it is a superior product and she knows it. (I know, I know cut parameters aren''t branded).

Ordering from a computer sight unseen? Could this be forbotten?

 

[Madam Bijoux]

This is the first time I''ve heard of Room 1 and Room 2, and I''ve been collecting for a looooong time. Every Tif''s I''ve been to, including the 5th Avenue NY store, has all of the merchandise mixed in together - no separate rooms for 6 and 7 figure prices as opposed to 5 figure prices and below. I''ve never spent 6 figures on a single piece of jewelry, and I get invited to all of Tif''s special events and private showings in Philadelphia.

The Cartier store on 5th Avenue in NY does separate its jewelry into Room 1 and 2 categories.

 

[Madam Bijoux]

Also, my SA at Tif''s sends me a nice gift whenever I buy anything.

 

[Imdanny]

Date: 3/29/2008 12:02:44 PM
Author: Isabelle

Imdanny, a Lucida wedding band is not a ''Room 2'', though I am guessing the new boutiques will have them. There are lots of $250,000.00 Lucida engagement rings sitting right next to a Lucida wedding band.

Isabelle, thanks for your very interesting earlier post and thanks for clarifying this.

 

[cwj]

Date: 3/28/2008 12:01:46 PM
Author: lisa1.01fvs1

Date: 3/28/2008 11:22:50 AM
Author: MP
I suspect that they run their store much like Tiffany. An appointment with a so-called diamond specialist is encouraged and they do not favor the simple walk in and looking business. Think about it from their perspective. They probably get people all day who have no intention of buying and couldn''t afford a ring from them if they wanted to who want to try a ring on just for a laugh or to hold it for a minute.

In any event they shouldn''t have treated you like that regardless of any circumstances. I have people who have walked into my store looking like they just got out of bed who will spend several hundred dollars like it''s nothing. It''s the guys in suits who are usually the cheap one''s.

What''s your budget if you don''t mind me asking?

At first I got a little miffed at this comment but then thought back to our shopping experience there last summer and yeah we had a bum SA and then a great one!

The first had a sorta disconnected, smirky ''you''re not gonna get it'' experssion on her face

the whole time while showing us the ring that lo & behold we did later purchase the same ring but from a different SA

!

I see her in the store every now and then when I go for cleaning and to browse and she stays away.

Some of them seem really dissillusioned or uninterested and I''m not just talking Tiffany''s.

What''s up? Get another job if handling diamonds all day does''nt suit you!

lisa1.01
same thing happen to once, but it was a little red sports car! The salesman told me I could test drive it when I brought my husband in!! Well I didnt need my husband to buy a car!! I went down the road purchased the same car and drove in back to see this salesman( with drive out tags in the window!) told him thanks for sending me to xxx, that they were so nice!! ha ha

cwj

 

[Isabelle]

Date: 3/30/2008 8:53:41 AM
Author: Madam Bijoux
This is the first time I''ve heard of Room 1 and Room 2, and I''ve been collecting for a looooong time. Every Tif''s I''ve been to, including the 5th Avenue NY store, has all of the merchandise mixed in together - no separate rooms for 6 and 7 figure prices as opposed to 5 figure prices and below. I''ve never spent 6 figures on a single piece of jewelry, and I get invited to all of Tif''s special events and private showings in Philadelphia.


The Cartier store on 5th Avenue in NY does separate its jewelry into Room 1 and 2 categories.

The NY Flagship store of Tiffany is quite different from the other stores spread throughout the nation, including some of the older stores like in CA or TX. Among other things, it is a multi-level store. I too have collected from Tiff for a long time, and most stores have the high dollar stuff in separate rooms. (I don''t mean to suggest that you cannot walk through Room 1. In Houston, Room 1 is the first room you walk through when you enter the store through the Galleria mall internal entrance, and I think that is the case with most Tiffany stores throughout the country.) As for NY, I do know that unless things have changed, the high dollar E-rings are located on one of the upper floors. I will say though that I think my comment that you have to spend $200K to be a "real" Room 1 customer is bit of an exaggeration. I said that to make the point that the Room customer base isn''t a typical customer base. Maybe you fall into that customer base, but that doesn''t make you "typical". I would revise my earlier comment to say that I think that if you spend $40K or more, and REGULARLY shop at Tiffany, then you would probably also fall into that special group of customers. I just agree with Gary''s point, very subtly made though it was, most E-ring customers do not spend more than $25K on a ring, and for that market, I do think that Tiffany is facing some stark competition unless the customer wants a diamond cut (like Lucida, Legacy or Novo) that Tiffany alone controls.

 

[diamondfan]

I think overall room one and two distinctions are merchandise based, and not per se space based, though some of Tiffany''s larger stores have things distinctly separate. The Beverly Hills store is on two floors, and the gift type items, fragrance, stationery, pens, key chains, china, etc are all on one floor, along with the silver items and jewelry that is more basic. Upstairs is the more high end/pricier stuff.

I think that they have brand ID, but also, have a niche in the other market a bit too. EVERY teenage girl I know, from about 12-18, has tons of Tiffany silver, whether it be from bat mitzvahs, Sweet 16, graduation...to be honest, that is why I am very specific in the silver I get from them now. I do not wear my return to Tiffany items as much if at all, and try to buy stuff I not see on all my 9th grade son''s girl friends. I wonder if Tiffany''s sectioned off how much they make from all of those items combined, versus the 6 and 7 figure stuff, I would be interested to see the comparison.

 

[lisa1.01fvs1]

Date: 3/30/2008 11:22:17 AM
Author: Isabelle

Date: 3/30/2008 8:53:41 AM
Author: Madam Bijoux
This is the first time I''ve heard of Room 1 and Room 2, and I''ve been collecting for a looooong time. Every Tif''s I''ve been to, including the 5th Avenue NY store, has all of the merchandise mixed in together - no separate rooms for 6 and 7 figure prices as opposed to 5 figure prices and below. I''ve never spent 6 figures on a single piece of jewelry, and I get invited to all of Tif''s special events and private showings in Philadelphia.


The Cartier store on 5th Avenue in NY does separate its jewelry into Room 1 and 2 categories.

The NY Flagship store of Tiffany is quite different from the other stores spread throughout the nation, including some of the older stores like in CA or TX. Among other things, it is a multi-level store. I too have collected from Tiff for a long time, and most stores have the high dollar stuff in separate rooms. (I don''t mean to suggest that you cannot walk through Room 1. In Houston, Room 1 is the first room you walk through when you enter the store through the Galleria mall internal entrance, and I think that is the case with most Tiffany stores throughout the country.) As for NY, I do know that unless things have changed, the high dollar E-rings are located on one of the upper floors. I will say though that I think my comment that you have to spend $200K to be a ''real'' Room 1 customer is bit of an exaggeration. I said that to make the point that the Room customer base isn''t a typical customer base. Maybe you fall into that customer base, but that doesn''t make you ''typical''. I would revise my earlier comment to say that I think that if you spend $40K or more, and REGULARLY shop at Tiffany, then you would probably also fall into that special group of customers. I just agree with Gary''s point, very subtly made though it was, most E-ring customers do not spend more than $25K on a ring, and for that market, I do think that Tiffany is facing some stark competition unless the customer wants a diamond cut (like Lucida, Legacy or Novo) that Tiffany alone controls.

Totally agree. Living in S. Ca I have seen 4 stores (Palm Desert, Bev. Hills, Costa Mesa & Santa Barbara).

Palm Desert: Enter big open room with mixed items Gehry, Picasso, diamonds, celebration rings and silver, china, etc. Then turn left into the diamond salon. A large room with e-rings and some of the same diamond items in first room. Almost as big a room. Lots of diamonds. And they use the cash registers from both interchangably. Relaxed but elegant atmosphere.

Bev. Hills: Exactly what diamond fan posted, very, very busy store. Didn''t see diamonds but had to wait for SA.

Costa Mesa: More of Isabelle''s analysis here. 3 separate rooms: diamond salon (small w/ viewing room at end), large silver, vase, dog collar room (not largest though), and largest room w/ gehry, picasso celebration rings, etc. Also, 3 separate entrys, diamond salon and largest room from mall and silver room from outside. More intense, high-end feel.

Santa Barbara: Newest of the 3 and smallest. 1 entrance into diamond room (largest) and then side room w/ silver, gehry and picasso stuff jumbled together. Less merchandise. Relaxed atmosphere.

I have never got any extra gifts

but a nice letter or 2 from Palm Desert SA.

And we actually spent the most at Costa Mesa.

 

[lisa1.01fvs1]

CWJ: Nice! Love that you went back to say "no comission for you!"

Some people are such jerks.