Find your diamond
Find your jewelry
shape
carat
color
clarity

H&A when graded by GIA?

Status
Not open for further replies. Please create a new topic or request for this thread to be opened.

harry

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 27, 2003
Messages
50
As I understand it, an AGS report will tell you if a diamond is a H&A, but a GIA report will not say anything.

If I buy a diamond with a Excellent/Excellent on its GIA report and the jeweler tells me it''s a H&A diamond, how can I be sure that it is truly a H&A diamond? I can see the patterns myself but I don''t think I can distinguish between a "very near" H&A and a "true" H&A.
 

pricescope

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Dec 31, 1999
Messages
8,266
Harry,
----------------
If I buy a diamond with a Excellent/Excellent on its GIA report and the jeweler tells me it's a H&A diamond, how can I be sure that it is truly a H&A diamond? I can see the patterns myself but I don't think I can distinguish between a "very near" H&A and a "true" H&A.
----------------

). It also gives you information about crown and pavilion angles while GIA doesn't.

[/u][/u]
 

RockDoc

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Aug 15, 2000
Messages
2,509
You wrote that the diamond was graded Ex Ex by GIA.

This has nothing to do with the H&A image.

The symmetry and polish grade assigned by GIA has relevance to the diamond's EXTERNAL symmetry. The H&A viewer shows its APPROXIMATE internal symmetry.

However, there are great variances between viewers. Since the optics in most are CHEAP, some give readings that are distorted as the lens is not abberation corrected.

In addition, they are not able to focus since the lens distance is fixed. The size of the diamond also has some relevance to the image as some H&A viewers do better with smaller stones, others do better with larger ones.

I have many viewers and use all of them when analyzing a stone.

I was sent one viewer that shows the arrows almost perfect, but I haven't yet had ONE STONE where it properly shows the Hearts image.

So the reliance of having the "TRUE" H&A has to be based on not only the correctness of the viewer itself, but also the person doing the rating of it.

Even the prices of the viewers vary a lot.. that should provide you with some food for thought....

Rockdoc
 

Giangi

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jan 23, 2003
Messages
2,530
Very often in AGS reports you see 'H&A AGSL XXXXXXXXXX' has been inscribed on the girdle of this diamond. By inscribing that on the girdle, they (AGS) are not telling you the stone is a perfect 'A' grade H&A... They are just doing what the clien has asked! This can be very confusing
!
 

mdx

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Mar 1, 2002
Messages
570
RockDoc wrote

However, there are great variances between viewers. Since the optics in most are CHEAP, some give readings that are distorted as the lens is not abberation corrected.

In addition, they are not able to focus since the lens distance is fixed. The size of the diamond also has some relevance to the image as some H&A viewers do better with smaller stones, others do better with larger ones.

I have many viewers and use all of them when analyzing a stone.

Rockdoc

I have noticed that if the Arrows are clealy visable when looking through an "Idealscope" Then they are pretty clear in most H&A viewers. We have about 5 versions
 

mdx

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Mar 1, 2002
Messages
570
RockDoc wrote

However, there are great variances between viewers. Since the optics in most are CHEAP, some give readings that are distorted as the lens is not abberation corrected.

In addition, they are not able to focus since the lens distance is fixed. The size of the diamond also has some relevance to the image as some H&A viewers do better with smaller stones, others do better with larger ones.

I have many viewers and use all of them when analyzing a stone.

Rockdoc
Rockdoc

I have noticed that if the Arrows are clearly visible when looking through an "Idealscope" Then they are pretty clear in most H&A viewers. We use about 5 versions of the H&A,viewer.
Another thing we notice is if the H&A scope has a purple foil the definition of the image is increased.

Wayne
Melborne Diamond Exchange Ltd
 

niceice

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Jan 29, 2003
Messages
1,792
To add further to the confusion, the cutters often inscribe H&A on the girdle edge of the diamond because many of the labs won't inscribe it, thus the labs are forced to add the "H&A" under the comments section because the inscription becomes a characteristic of the diamond and as such must be mentioned on the lab report... Nice game, heh?
 

Giangi

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jan 23, 2003
Messages
2,530
Hi R&T,

I agree, this is very, very confusing for the buyer.
 

harry

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 27, 2003
Messages
50
Oh I see. The "H&A AGSL XXXXXXXX" under the Comments section of an AGS report doest not mean that AGS graded it as a H&A, just that the cutter inscribed "H&A AGSL XXXXXXXX" in the girdle. Is this correct?

I still haven't solved my H&A identification problem though. What exactly do I look for in a "true" H&A? And is there a generally accepted standard that determines whether a diamond is a "true" H&A or just a "near" H&A?
 

harry

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 27, 2003
Messages
50
----------------
On 3/3/2003 1:36:57 PM mdx wrote:


RockDoc wrote

However, there are great variances between viewers. Since the optics in most are CHEAP, some give readings that are distorted as the lens is not abberation corrected.

In addition, they are not able to focus since the lens distance is fixed. The size of the diamond also has some relevance to the image as some H&A viewers do better with smaller stones, others do better with larger ones.

I have many viewers and use all of them when analyzing a stone.

Rockdoc

I have noticed that if the Arrows are clealy visable when looking through an "Idealscope" Then they are pretty clear in most H&A viewers. We have about 5 versions
----------------

What is this business with "A" grade H&As? The Pricescope "Beware of Phony Hearts & Arrows Diamonds" says the following:

"Quality A, B, C or 1, 2, 3 do not exist. They are either TRUE Hearts and Arrows diamonds or they are NOT. These standards need to be maintained just as they have in Japan where the standard was set and I believe all should maintain."

https://www.pricescope.com/hearts_phony.asp

No doubt there will be debate on this topic. It would be very helpful if someone can tell me what's the accepted industry standard. Thanks.
 

Giangi

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jan 23, 2003
Messages
2,530
I put A under inverted commas cause I don't think it exists. There are many internet vendors that use A-B-C grades, though. I used that 'A' just to make an example.
In my opinion a diamond can be called H&A ONLY IF it has a perfect patterns. As I said, I don't believe in A/B/C... But a lot of vendors do...
This is a hot topic
 

pricescope

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Dec 31, 1999
Messages
8,266
Harry,

). Brian has very strict approach to H&A and doesn't believe in A/B/C grades of H&A.

does grade H&A.
[/u][/u][/u]
 

Giangi

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jan 23, 2003
Messages
2,530
Ditto on Leonid!
 

Heyjud

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Feb 26, 2003
Messages
243
Ditto ditto to both of you.
The hearts and arrows must be true

Brian the cutter explains it well
If the patterns are right
It's clear to tell !

Check it out!!
 

niceice

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Jan 29, 2003
Messages
1,792
We're sorry, but we have to disagree. The fact is that both the CGL and Zenhokyo laboratories in Japan - the original graders of the Hearts & Arrows diamonds - both graded the completeness and crispness of the Hearts & Arrows patterns using Excellent, Very Good, Good, Fair and Poor as descriptive terms... Hence the use of A:Excellent; B:Very Good; C:Good, etc. by many of the on-line dealers. The fact is that we have yet to see a perfect H&A pattern and we used to sell Brian's production prior to his arrangement with WhiteFlash... None of the H&A patterns are perfect, send us your best and we'll tell you what's wrong with it... Then we'll see how you feel about A/B/C grading of the patterns.
 

LesleyH

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Aug 28, 2000
Messages
506
R and T:

From what I have heard, you sold A CUT ABOVE's at the end of 1999, in the early days. Many leaps and strides have been made to perfect the cutting techniques, most recently with the introduction of the ACA2 line.

We wish just as much as you do that there was one set of standards...but we still believe it either is or is not a H and A.

LesleyH
www.whiteflash.com
 
Status
Not open for further replies. Please create a new topic or request for this thread to be opened.
Be a part of the community It's free, join today!
    Diamond Prices - January 2021
    Diamond Prices - January 2021
    The Magic of Pink and Blue Diamonds
    The Magic of Pink and Blue Diamonds
    Get the Look: Moira Rose
    Get the Look: Moira Rose

Need Something Special?

Get a quote from multiple trusted and vetted jewelers.

Holloway Cut Advisor



Diamond Eye Candy

Click to view full-size image.
Top