H&A Diamond Selection by CGI Script?

[niceice]

We received an email today which indicated that another dealer was using the following piece of CGI script to determine which diamonds in his *inventory* were "Hearts & Arrows:

ideal=on&mintableperc=54&maxtableperc=57.5&mindepthperc=58&maxdepthperc=63.5

For those of you not quite familiar with this it is saying that diamonds with a table diameter between 54 - 57% and with a total depth between 58 - 63.5 are to be listed as ''ideal'' and according to the customer are being represented as "Hearts & Arrows" as well...

The customer asked "is this all there is to it?" and the answer is a Deafening & Resounding NO! Look, apparently some companies *buy* diamonds for their *inventory* using scripts, we prefer to buy them using our eyes... A few other reputable on-line dealers do the same... A diamond is not "Hearts & Arrows" unless it was cut to exhibit a crisp and clear pattern of Hearts & Arrows, it is not possible to guess the presence of a pattern by the numbers, at least not a crisp and complete pattern... All round brilliant cut diamonds will exhibit some sort of pattern, but not necessarily one which would be considered to be "Hearts & Arrows" by Japanese grading standards... This is because all round brilliant diamonds contain the basic facets which the pattern results from... ''Basically'' to keep things simple, the Hearts are a reflection of the kite shape bezel main facets appearing on the top of the stone and the Arrows are a reflection of the pavilion main facets which extend out on the underside of the stone from the culet point towards the girdle edge... But this alone does not make a Hearts & Arrows diamond, merely the reflecton of some sort of pattern. Want to know if a diamond being represented as being a "Hearts & Arrows" diamond is really a "Hearts & Arrows" diamond? Buy it from somebody who can provide you with photographs of the actual patterns, not a Photoshop edited picture of a pattern, an actual picture of the actual pattern. These are Photoshop edited pictures from a page on our site which discusses Hearts & Arrows diamonds:

These are ''real'' unedited pictures:

The difference between the real, unedited pictures and the magazine perfect pictures which were edited in Adobe Photo Shop is quite clear... The reality is that it is not possible to capture a perfectly uniform picture "on the fly" of a real stone because it would take hours to align the camera lens with the pattern of the diamond which is three dimensional... The pictures exist simply to provide insight into the extent and consistency of the patterns...

CGI Scripts or any other script for that matter, should not be used to select diamonds and determine the internal characteristics of a diamond... And you shouldn''t buy a diamond based upon a script either... The only purpose for a script in the diamond business is to list, sort and format an inventory list AFTER the diamonds that appear on that list have been evaluated by an experienced diamond grader.

Buy a "Hearts & Arrows" diamond that was evaluated by a script and you''re likely to get this:

Instead of what you paid for...

 

[Rhino]

Excellent post Robin/Todd. I received the same email and didn't quite know what to make of it.




One thing I would add, the slightest deviation in variances, even in the minor facetss will disrupt the optical pattern preventing it from being a true H&A stone too.




This is an example of a perfectliy aligned photograph we had taken of a stone and 2 of the lower girdle facets were cut slightly longer than the other 14. The optical result of longer lower girdles is a smaller heart which you can observe in the 8:00 position.




/idealbb/files/LOWERGIRDLES03.jpg




These variances are impossible to assess from a GIA or AGS and most Sarin or OGI reports. An analysis of the minor facets PLUS the knowledge of their optical effects is necessary however photographic proof is (as Todd/Robin suggested) the best evidence. It is impossible to assess the real optics of a diamond (especially with regards to optical symmetry) from a GIA/AGS or even a Sarin or OGI as none or most of these instruments do not report minor facet cutting and their variances.




My .02c


Rhino

 

[Rhino]

That same person who gave that lad his advice would probably consider this to be an H&A too.




/idealbb/files/bogusha2.jpg

 

[DEVO]

Why are some AGS cert diamonds laser inscripted with H&A? Who puts this on the diamond, AGS? Are all AGS H&A certified diamonds inscripted with that?

 

[niceice]

Good points Rhino... Isn't it interesting that we so often find ourselves on the same page? Could it possibly be that both of us actually see the diamonds that we sell? Hmmm, what a concept! We're happy to see that a few of our on-line competitors have started to purchase diamonds for inventory, so nice to see them actually entering the diamond business and investing the time and working capital to offer their clients the service they deserve

Answer to Devo, if a diamond is inscribed with "H&A" or anything else on the girdle edge then the laboratories have to mentiion the inscription under the "comments" section of the lab report as a "characteristic" of the diamond... It's kind of a sleazy marketing ploy used by various diamond dealers to fool the public into assuming that the laboratory is indicating that the diamond has a Hearts & Arrows pattern when in fact they are merely reporting the presence of the inscription. Perhaps the labs should indicate that they have not graded the H&A pattern and are merely commenting on the presence of the inscription to prevent further misuse of this tactic by the trade...

 

[Rhino]

Haha... that's because we have so much in common my friend.

Yes Devo. Let me say that I do know of honorable companies who really do cut beautiful H&A stones who have them inscribed by AGS as such. This however is NOT a guarantee that they are indeed *true* H&A stones. A physical analysis is required and IMO photographic evidence must also be provided if purchasing via the net. Any company can have AGS inscribe whatever they want, including an H&A logo even if the stone is not.




Now DEVO... CARACK THAT WHIP!




Peace,

 

[DEVO]

Thanks niceice and (CRACK) Rhino.

The reason that I ask is that my stone has this on the girdle but wanted to know if AGS put it there. I got the stone from GOG (hi Rhino) so I trust it's there for a good reason, plus all the pictures confirm it's a H&A stone.

 

[Rhino]

Oh... woops! Didn't know you were one of mine. Then you've seen the proof in the proverbial pudding then.

We don't leave a stone unturned.

Peace,


Rhino

 

[DEVO]

Sorry Rhino,

I should have mentioned that at the top.

Anyway here it is:

H&A 1.007 D VS1

Was this marking placed by GOG or by AGS?

Thanks

 

[n2qcn]

I was the one that spammed 5 dealers found via google
In my quest for earrings by xmas.. Its easier for me
To see numbers, than analog comparisons..

Grading by cgi-script or other math formulas *IS* valid!

Most of your clients buy by analog feel and "love", but
There are some people (I'll venture to say more on the
Internet) that need to see the math.

The second part of the spam was something like:
If a H&A was next to a larger OD AGS-0, of the same
Street price, wouldn't the AGS-0 "look" better because
It collects soooo much more light to reflect,
even if it leaks some?

Jonathan answered it best by saying there isn't that
much of a price difference. This is true for "new"
stones, but is much less so on the secondary market..
I'm getting a "new" stone, and went with an "engraved"
h&a but if I had more time.........

Sorry for spamming you under the table, but this
Industry is very confusing... it isn't fun....

Pls reply direct, as I don't read this Forum.

 

[niceice]

----------------
On 12/4/2003 3:33:41 PM n2qcn wrote:


Grading by cgi-script or other math formulas *IS* valid!

Most of your clients buy by analog feel and 'love', but
There are some people (I'll venture to say more on the
Internet) that need to see the math.

----------------

No, no, no, grading by cgi-script is not valid! A cgi-script can not grade a diamond, it can merely sort diamonds by numbers in terms of potential. Can a script tell me whether the diamond actually exhibits a crisp and complete Hearts & Arrows pattern? No. Can a script tell me whether the cutter cut the diamond in orientation with the internal grain structure of the diamond? No. And if the cutter did not cut the diamond in conjunction with the internal grain structure of the diamond then it doesn't matter how perfectly combined the proportions of the diamond are, it's still going to be a sleeping dog...

We agree that the majority of buyers on the internet buy by the numbers, they buy paper because they can not see the diamond... This is not our objection, we ourselves buy by the numbers initially. Our point of contention is the fact that the majority of diamond dealers buy by the numbers and then drop ship the product to their customers without ever seeing the diamonds for themselves... They market and sell by cgi-script and they do their customers a disservice by doing so, they're not actually in the diamond business, they're in the software business. We hope that people will eventually let the dealers know that they expect better service than this, that they expect the person selling them the diamond to actually evaluate the diamond on their behalf and with their best interests in mind... What good are the numbers if the feather along the girdle edge poses a durability risk to the structure of the crystal itself? Is this something that the average diamond buyer is capable of determining for themselves? Probably not. We buy by the numbers and we reject about 40% of the diamonds that we bring in for physical evaluation after evaluating the numbers on paper... So should consumers buy strictly by the numbers, probably not! Make no mistake, we're glad that you spammed most of us with your question, it raises an interesting point that is now being addressed publicly... You'll note that not a single one of the diamond dealers who post everywhere else on every thread here on PS have failed to comment on this thread because they'd really like to see it fall of the edge of the earth so that "their customers" don't realize how little they are doing for their business.

 

[n2qcn]

> cut the diamond in conjunction with the internal grain structure
> of the diamond then it doesn't matter how perfectly combined the proportions

> What good are the numbers if the feather along the girdle edge poses a
> durability risk to the structure of the crystal itself?

you are right of course...

Diamonds are a commodity, people buy them all the time solely based
on numbers.. (ahhh, math, one always gets a worm fuzzy feeling
when the proof works out.. the solution is always so elegant)

your market differentiator is you pre-sort for clients...
this DOES add value! infact I had a hook in my spam to cater to
this market: can a AGS-0 of larger OD than a new h&a have more
"analog" appeal because it captures more light in the first place
so more light is reflected even though some light leaks out?

i.e.: If one of the arrows is missing in a stone, would it look better
to the necked eye because it still reflects more light than
the perfect h&a smaller stone of the same $.

Balance the 4c.... VS2 vs eye clean SI1...

where I'm failing is that the secondary market might not
be as perfect as I envisioned, and the price delta isn't
large enough..

there are three markets:

1) malls where size and cost are the main drivers
2) commodity cgi-script where numbers are the main driver
3) VARs where quality is the driver

I'm in camp 2.5 and am looking for alittle help, but my
engineering roots are pulling me back into #2...