Grrrr! What would you do???

[jewels2]

Hello everyone!

I was in New York vacationing last week and went to see ID Jewelry. I spoke with Yekutiel prior to my trip and he had a pair of 1.51 studs waiting for me (he was not in that day). I decided to purchase them and they set them and shipped them to me.
They are a .75 E SI2 and a .76 F SI2. I plugged in the numbers to the HCA and the F scores a .09 and the E scores a 4.2
I spoke with Yekutiel and he said if I was not happy to send them back and he will either find another match for the F
or at my request find another larger pair in G/H color .....

Should I keep them?
Find a match for the F?
or get a lower color/larger size??

 

[pregcurious]

Re: Grrrr! What what you do???

It sounds like it's bothering you, so I would send it back. Plus, that's a lot of $ not to be very happy.

I would personally get bigger ones in a G because I can't tell the diff between a F and G.

 

[jewels2]

Thanks for the reply!

He found another pair .80 each H/I SI2 ..... is this price comparable to the E/F

 

[jewels2]

From what I can tell the price I paid would be too much for an H/I SI2

Can anyone please help

 

[jewels2]

No one?

 

[minmin001]

I would not do the .80 H/I, the size difference is almost unnoticeable. I guess keep searching?

 

[jewels2]

I would not do the .80 H/I, the size difference is almost unnoticeable. I guess keep searching?

This is what I was thinking.
He said the 1.60 has a larger diameter though. I don't know, I paid $6300 including the setting I kind of feel there should be more of weight difference or higher color. So confused and a little disappointed now. A little mad at myself

 

[Rockdiamond]

Hi Jewels,
As a vendor I can't comment on any particular seller- or stone.
But I can comment that if someone was looking at GIA graded EX cut grade diamonds, and they loved the way they look, it makes no sense whatsoever to return one based on HCA.
When I buy diamonds I love they sometimes score poorly on HCA.
Since I've been a diamond grader for almost 40 years- I know what I love, so the score means nothing to me.
But it does show that not everyone will prefer the type of stone favored by HCA over other well cut diamonds that HCA knocks.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Hi Jewels,
As a vendor I can't comment on any particular seller- or stone.
But I can comment that if someone was looking at GIA graded EX cut grade diamonds, and they loved the way they look, it makes no sense whatsoever to return one based on HCA.
When I buy diamonds I love they sometimes score poorly on HCA.
Since I've been a diamond grader for almost 40 years- I know what I love, so the score means nothing to me.
But it does show that not everyone will prefer the type of stone favored by HCA over other well cut diamonds that HCA knocks.

If you have the opportunity to wear them for a few days and see what they look like after they get a bit dirty - If I (and my HCA) are right then you will see a marked difference.

If Rockdiamond is right, and you like the presumably steepish deepish stone, then I will allow people to call me a dinasaur.

 

[jewels2]

Hi and thanks so much for your replies!

The thing is I DID notice one looked "different" which prompted me to check the HCA. I have learned quite a bit on this forum but obviously no where near an expert. I suppose I should have plugged in the numbers BEFORE I purchased, sigh. I do love the F colored stud though. I guess instead of having him look for another pair I should just see if he can find a better (to me) match
Yekutiel really is very nice.

 

[Dreamer_D]

It is not worth dropping to H/I color to go from .75ct to .80 ct unless there is a significant difference in mm. I suppose he is saying the H/I pair is spready, but that makes me wonder a little about the cut quality. Keep looking you will find your sweet spot.

 

[Gypsy]

I'd just have him trade out the steep/ deep and keep the high color in this case.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

You would do a serious contribution to the community here by undertaking the simple test I mentioned above

 

[jewels2]

Hi Gary! I'm sorry if I sound silly, but I am not exactly sure what you are asking me to look for?

 

[diamondseeker2006]

He just wants you to notice what difference there is after they have been worn a few days and are dirty. Better cut stones are going to still look brilliant when dirty.

I think .75 is a great size, and the price jump to .80 is really not worth the extra money to me. I do think H color is totally fine for earrings and I'd probably tell him to wait until he can find a .70-.79 range pair in G-H color unless your e-ring is D-F and you want your studs to be that high color as well.

But by all means, do look at the numbers before he sends them to you.

 

[jewels2]

HI diamondseeker!

OK I understand.
I think the one that scored 4.2 looks "dull". When the earrings arrived I showed them to my husband and daughter seperately and asked them what they thought and they both said one looks dull/one is more sparkly. I did the same thing with a coworker and received the same response so I know it is not just me.

He sent me the certs on the 1.60 pair and while I would have been OK with this set, I do not feel they are worth the $6300 that I spent.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Hi Jewels
What Garry would like is anecdotal evidence that the HCA score has identified a bad diamond
I, on the other hand have found HCA to be inconclusive

If one of the diamonds is not to your liking, by all means send them back
But for the purposes of this discussion, if I could respectfully ask: how do you know which earring is the E and which one is the F?

 

[jewels2]

Hi Jewels
What Garry would like is anecdotal evidence that the HCA score has identified a bad diamond
I, on the other hand have found HCA to be inconclusive

If one of the diamonds is not to your liking, by all means send them back
But for the purposes of this discussion, if I could respectfully ask: how do you know which earring is the E and which one is the F?

HI!
I guess I am assuming the one that is the E is the same one that we identified as "dull".

 

[jewels2]

Here are the certs for the 1.151 pair:

F SI2
xxx
56%
61%
34.0
40.8
5.89 5.91 3.60
GIA 5126353463

E SI2
XXX
56%
61.8%
33.0
41.6
GIA 2117581814



and the 1.60 pair

H SI2
XXX
58%
60.1%
33.0
41.0
GIA 2131709194

I SI2
XXX
57%
59.8%
33.0
40.8
GIA 1136448279

 

[Rockdiamond]

Hi Jewels
What Garry would like is anecdotal evidence that the HCA score has identified a bad diamond
I, on the other hand have found HCA to be inconclusive

If one of the diamonds is not to your liking, by all means send them back
But for the purposes of this discussion, if I could respectfully ask: how do you know which earring is the E and which one is the F?

HI!
I guess I am assuming the one that is the E is the same one that we identified as "dull".

Hi Jewels- in terms of you, and a good way to proceed:
Are you absolutely sure both stones are clean?
Sometimes there might be some "gunk" left over from setting. It might be worth your while to have them looked at by a local jeweler to check.
By all means we would advise any consumer to return if they are unhappy- but if the source of the problem is easily solved, that's surely more convenient.

IN terms of how HCA is coming into play here- we have a 50% chance that the stone you prefer is the E,and a 50% chance it's the F.
Common sense would dictate that the E might be a little brighter due to lack of body color....but this is, again, inconclusive.

I'd say that my theory ( one of the stones might be dirty) is a good possibility.
It's unlikely a GIA graded EX cut grade, selected by a trusted vendor will be "dull"

Bottom line is that we all want you to be thrilled with something so special

 

[jewels2]

Hi Jewels
What Garry would like is anecdotal evidence that the HCA score has identified a bad diamond
I, on the other hand have found HCA to be inconclusive

If one of the diamonds is not to your liking, by all means send them back
But for the purposes of this discussion, if I could respectfully ask: how do you know which earring is the E and which one is the F?

HI!
I guess I am assuming the one that is the E is the same one that we identified as "dull".

Hi Jewels- in terms of you, and a good way to proceed:
Are you absolutely sure both stones are clean?
Sometimes there might be some "gunk" left over from setting. It might be worth your while to have them looked at by a local jeweler to check.
By all means we would advise any consumer to return if they are unhappy- but if the source of the problem is easily solved, that's surely more convenient.

IN terms of how HCA is coming into play here- we have a 50% chance that the stone you prefer is the E,and a 50% chance it's the F.
Common sense would dictate that the E might be a little brighter due to lack of body color....but this is, again, inconclusive.

I'd say that my theory ( one of the stones might be dirty) is a good possibility.
It's unlikely a GIA graded EX cut grade, selected by a trusted vendor will be "dull"

Bottom line is that we all want you to be thrilled with something so special

How is it a GIA graded EX cut would score so bad on the HCA??? I guess I just don't understand as much as I thought I did

 

[Rockdiamond]

Jewels- HCA was created in an attempt to assist shoppers.
There are people here on PS that really like it a lot. The theory is that it assists shoppers who can't see the diamond.
My own personal experience is that HCA results are unrelated to how well a diamond is cut based on physical examination- and of course GIA grading.
No diamond sparkles equally in all situations.
The subtle differences between to GIA EX cut grade diamonds may be reflected on HCA scores- or they may not.

My biggest problem with HCA is false negatives- that is to say, HCA knocks a GIA graded EX cut grade diamond needlessly.
As I mentioned- it's highly unlikely a GIA EX cut grade diamond will look dull out of the box- unless there's something else at play.

My wife's stone ( which she adores) scores well over 4 on HCA- and I love it as well.
It gets dirty, yet still sparkles

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Because the stones are SI2 it is also possible that one has clouds or graining that dulls it.
So if you are going to do this test Jewels2 I would suggest that we send the pair back via an appraiser who can
1. confirm which stone is which
2. make sure the inclusions are not affectig the situation.
I will pay for and arrange the appraiser and extra shipping.
The appraiser could then also take some photo's and do other tests

 

[jewels2]

Because the stones are SI2 it is also possible that one has clouds or graining that dulls it.
So if you are going to do this test Jewels2 I would suggest that we send the pair back via an appraiser who can
1. confirm which stone is which
2. make sure the inclusions are not affectig the situation.
I will pay for and arrange the appraiser and extra shipping.
The appraiser could then also take some photo's and do other tests

Ugh I just returned from the Post Office where I sent them back to IDJ via registered mail. I am really dissapointed, this has been rather frustrating

 

[Rockdiamond]

Garry- interesting plan- but even if it wasn't completely inconvenient for the OP it's still not going to "prove" anything.

I'd be more than happy to do a little work on this- by selecting a GIA EX cut grade stone I like that scores poorly on HCA, and compare it with a stone that scores well on HCA.
I could take photos and videos to show differences between stones.

I know you've put a tremendous amount of work into this Garry- and I also believe your reasons are altruistic- you'd like to see folks get the best cut diamond, as you see it.

Lately, there have been a lot of cases of folks getting confused because they bought a stone and subsequently learned it did not score well on HCA

This creates a doubt about seller, and stone. I don't believe that was your intent, but it's happening. If there is a valid reason to be unsure of a purchase, we both agree that transparent info is what's needed.
But the way I see it, HCA is not being used in that way all the time.


Jewels- please don't let this discussion add to frustration.
This will all get sorted out to your satisfaction- of that I'm very sure.

 

[jewels2]

Thank you all so much for taking the time to reply, I really appreciate it! Yes I am sure this will all work out I am just a little disappointed with the these few issues that I have had.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

That was a generous offer, Garry, and it would have really been interesting to see if it was the cut or inclusions causing the dullness of the stone. This is why the HCA is helpful when we order GIA XXX stones unseen. And it is also why I personally don't recommend doing SI2's unseen as well unless there is a very specific understanding between the customer and vendor regarding the clarity expectations.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Garry- interesting plan- but even if it wasn't completely inconvenient for the OP it's still not going to "prove" anything.

I'd be more than happy to do a little work on this- by selecting a GIA EX cut grade stone I like that scores poorly on HCA, and compare it with a stone that scores well on HCA.
I could take photos and videos to show differences between stones.

I know you've put a tremendous amount of work into this Garry- and I also believe your reasons are altruistic- you'd like to see folks get the best cut diamond, as you see it.

Lately, there have been a lot of cases of folks getting confused because they bought a stone and subsequently learned it did not score well on HCA

This creates a doubt about seller, and stone. I don't believe that was your intent, but it's happening. If there is a valid reason to be unsure of a purchase, we both agree that transparent info is what's needed.
But the way I see it, HCA is not being used in that way all the time.


Jewels- please don't let this discussion add to frustration.
This will all get sorted out to your satisfaction- of that I'm very sure.

Thank you David, but in the past your ability to conduct experiments has been poor.
This experiment would have been very similar to one that i did about 5 years ago with my wifes earrings. A few people were at Vegas and witnessed the results.
It is a simple test that any of the consumers here can perform if they know the proportions of their stones and or have good ideal-scope photo taking skills - assuming they have earrings or rings with diamonds of different cut proportions.

 

[canuk-gal]

Garry- interesting plan- but even if it wasn't completely inconvenient for the OP it's still not going to "prove" anything.

I'd be more than happy to do a little work on this- by selecting a GIA EX cut grade stone I like that scores poorly on HCA, and compare it with a stone that scores well on HCA.
I could take photos and videos to show differences between stones.

I know you've put a tremendous amount of work into this Garry- and I also believe your reasons are altruistic- you'd like to see folks get the best cut diamond, as you see it.

Lately, there have been a lot of cases of folks getting confused because they bought a stone and subsequently learned it did not score well on HCA

This creates a doubt about seller, and stone. I don't believe that was your intent, but it's happening. If there is a valid reason to be unsure of a purchase, we both agree that transparent info is what's needed.
But the way I see it, HCA is not being used in that way all the time.


Jewels- please don't let this discussion add to frustration.
This will all get sorted out to your satisfaction- of that I'm very sure.

Thank you David, but in the past your ability to conduct experiments has been poor.
This experiment would have been very similar to one that i did about 5 years ago with my wifes earrings. A few people were at Vegas and witnessed the results.
It is a simple test that any of the consumers here can perform if they know the proportions of their stones and or have good ideal-scope photo taking skills - assuming they have earrings or rings with diamonds of different cut proportions.

Any such "result" would be anecdotal at best. But I am happy to hear the outcome. Hopefully "happy". (gosh don't ask me to "measure" that!!)

cheers--Sharon

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Garry- interesting plan- but even if it wasn't completely inconvenient for the OP it's still not going to "prove" anything.

I'd be more than happy to do a little work on this- by selecting a GIA EX cut grade stone I like that scores poorly on HCA, and compare it with a stone that scores well on HCA.
I could take photos and videos to show differences between stones.

I know you've put a tremendous amount of work into this Garry- and I also believe your reasons are altruistic- you'd like to see folks get the best cut diamond, as you see it.

Lately, there have been a lot of cases of folks getting confused because they bought a stone and subsequently learned it did not score well on HCA

This creates a doubt about seller, and stone. I don't believe that was your intent, but it's happening. If there is a valid reason to be unsure of a purchase, we both agree that transparent info is what's needed.
But the way I see it, HCA is not being used in that way all the time.


Jewels- please don't let this discussion add to frustration.
This will all get sorted out to your satisfaction- of that I'm very sure.

Thank you David, but in the past your ability to conduct experiments has been poor.
This experiment would have been very similar to one that i did about 5 years ago with my wifes earrings. A few people were at Vegas and witnessed the results.
It is a simple test that any of the consumers here can perform if they know the proportions of their stones and or have good ideal-scope photo taking skills - assuming they have earrings or rings with diamonds of different cut proportions.

Any such "result" would be anecdotal at best. But I am happy to hear the outcome. Hopefully "happy". (gosh don't ask me to "measure" that!!)

cheers--Sharon

Hi Sharon,
I guess if 10 people did the experiment and all 10 got similar results then it would be 'positive anecdotal result'.
The main point is that the 2 (or more) diamonds should be worn in the same environment with the same exposure to dirt etc.
I had drena alternate which ear she put the diamonds in.
There is a thread here somewhere. Even Peter Yantzer, the AGSLab Director, picked the shallow stone over the close to tolkowsky (this holds for earrings and pendants, but not so much for rings in my experiance). In the case of slightly deeper vs Tolkowsky its a no brainer that the Tolkowsky will win.
a Tolkowsky - the slightly deeper will loose a lot of the light return from the outer (upper girdle) facets and have the 'ring of death' inside the table.

Any takers?