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Gray - is it good/bad/neutral ?

ringo865

Ideal_Rock
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I'm considering a diamond that is GIA 3X SI1, O-P color. It has a definite grayish body color from the side. Faces up bright with steely ivory to peachy tones. It has HCA<2 which charts in TIC zone.

It's graded (by GIA) as O-P and is not called "light" or "fancy," (no color modifier mentioned) so just curious whether gray body color is considered an undesirable color (as opposed to yellow, for instance)? If so, is there discounting on greyish stones?

Depth 61.5 %
Table 56 %
Crown Angle 33.0°
Crown Hgt 14.0%
Pav Angle 41.2°
Pav Depth 44.0%
Star Length 50%
Lower Half 75%
Girdle Medium, Faceted, 3.5%
Culet None Flour Faint

side_55.jpg

greyface.jpg

peachface.jpg

_37199.jpg
 

flyingpig

Ideal_Rock
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Color tone is highly subjective. But in general, yellow is considered the most desirable by many. Good old gold has a youtube video on this. There is a very recent thread on this topic as well.
For a MRB, i like brown, grey, and then yellow.
For an old european cut style, i like yellow the most.

I love that brownish peach tone overall, but not sure of those grey patches mixed in..
 

Snowdrop13

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I also have the feeling from reading previous posts that grey and brown are less "desirable" so maybe they do trade at a slight discount. I think that peachy colour is pretty cool though! How would you set that?
 

ringo865

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I recall Victor Canera writing recently where he had gotten in two J(?)s - one had a gray body color, and he steered the client away from that one. However, he did say (it was a virtual stone that he had called in/not from his inventory) that it appeared dull. So, wondering whether gray stones are dull, or that particular stone was dull and also happened to be gray?

Again I recall seeing that GIA will say "fancy" or "light" or some distinguishing comment when a stone is brown past K... curious cuz this one is O to P range, with no color comment mentioned, if it is just considered "Very Light Color" that happens to be gray(ish)?
 

oldminer

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I would think all bets on light return are off with a grey color call. I suspect there will be cloudiness in the transparency and the HCA does not take such lack of transparency into the end result. Steer clear unless you want something quite "different" which will not be graded in the normal way with the expected outcome.
 

telephone89

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Wow that one is gorgeous! Personally, I HATE yellow stones. Idk why, I just really dislike the yellow tone. Give me a brown or grey any day over yellow. I would be very happy with that stone, but perhaps the majority of people (including resale) would not love it.
 

Victor Canera

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Hi ringo865,

I definitely agree with OldMiner here. A lot of times, there is an issue with "luster" or transparency with diamonds that have a color undertone like a gray or green. That's something that you should be aware of. If you personally like a color undertone then that would should be a conscious decision that you can make.
Something else to keep in mind; IF, in the unlikely event, that you need to sell this diamond back to somebody in the trade, they'll really try to under value your diamond. Diamonds with these types of undertones are considered undesirable at the wholesale level. It won't be an easy sell to somebody in the trade is what I'm trying to say. That might or might not be something to keep in mind for the future.
 

ringo865

Ideal_Rock
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Thanks for your opinions everyone, and to the trade members Oldminer and Victor, thank you for the explanation about transparency and luster in stones with gray body color. I had hoped, Victor, that the recent gray stone you wrote about was just "that stone" being a "dud" and not about gray stones generally.

I do not have the stone in hand - it is only from pics and videos that I even considered it for purchase from a private party. While I generally appreciate body color in stones, mainly old cuts, I have never seen a O-P stone in real life, so I don't know if I'd like it or not. I certainly haven't seen a grayish body stone of that grade.

The GIA 3X SI1 and the price for the size (+ 8mm) is what makes it awfully tempting. The videos showed great scintillation, contrast, brilliance, and a nice facet pattern. And ... the stone seemed relatively clear (looking)...(to me).

But even with the price being "affordable", its still a lot of money considering I really can't see it first or, more importantly, return it after.
:cry:
 

Texas Leaguer

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Interesting topic!

Ringo,
Regarding the images, are the two face up images the same stone under different lighting? I'm assuming the peachy tones might be coming out under incandescent and the grey under fluorescent light.

diamonds the 'normal range" of D-Z are yellow and brown hues. Other hues past the near colorless range are treated differently (faint, very light, and light with color designated).

Can you post the GIA report number?

The grey is a tonal aspect, not really a hue. I wonder if the grey is exaggerated by some clarity aspect. If transparency is compromised,that might result in a more pronounced grey tone.

fancy_color_wheel.png
 

ringo865

Ideal_Rock
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Right, like I thought, if it was an actual (not yellow) color, it would not be graded O-P, but light, fancy, etc. it's not.

The pics I posted were screen captures from the seller's video. Both face ups looked to have been video'd near a window in daylight and the peachy one may have been reflecting the videographer's hand/skin. The profile shots were captured (one each, the gray face up and the peach face up) while the stone was being turned. The profiles look very similar color wise.

_1178.png
 

Rockdiamond

Ideal_Rock
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Cool, unusual stone for sure.
But "cool" might not exactly be for everyone.
We've carried and sold Gray diamonds, some people really love them.
I'll admit, the appeal is lost on me.
As others have said, the color goes against "shiny and bright".
But it is pretty rare to see that shade in an O-P....maybe that has something to do with why GIA did not call it a Fancy Color.
 

Texas Leaguer

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ringo865|1463609987|4033337 said:
Right, like I thought, if it was an actual (not yellow) color, it would not be graded O-P, but light, fancy, etc. it's not.

The pics I posted were screen captures from the seller's video. Both face ups looked to have been video'd near a window in daylight and the peachy one may have been reflecting the videographer's hand/skin. The profile shots were captured (one each, the gray face up and the peach face up) while the stone was being turned. The profiles look very similar color wise.
It's hard to make any accurate determinations on the basis of images since so many variables can be at play. But my guess is the GIA color call is based on a brown hue. Brown tends to have a darker tone from the side view than equivalent color grades in the yellow hue, but can sometimes look lighter/whiter from face up view than yellows.

Clarity could be pretty decent with the Si1 grade based on an etched channel. However, the comments do indicate some issues that could cause some loss of transparency and contribute to that grey color that both Victor and OldMiner mentioned can be problematic.
 

motownmama

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Interesting stone and interesting thread! You can't see it OR return it? Ut oh!
 

ringo865

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Yah, it's a private party, not a retailer, so final sale.

Don't brown tones get the modifier designation below K?
 

lovedogs

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FWIW I LOVE that stone! But I also tend to like brown/grey hues in diamonds, and I know that's a completely personal choice. I guess it just depends on whether you love it, and whether the price is right (and making sure it doesn't lack clarity or look cloudy IRL). Of course I'm worried that you cannot see it in person or return it before buying--especially since diamonds are a high cost item.
 

lambskin

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I have wondered about "grey' looking diamonds- so glad this is discussed. The color range O-P I would think is more brown-yellow (not fancy) than grey color. Yet this stone looks like both. Based on the brownish color in one picture it seems that the lower end of the spectrum is a fair assessment. Yet it looks steel grey also. In these pictures the stone does not look so visably included to make it not transparent. So as a lay person I am confused as to what transparency means in diamonds as Texas Leaguer describes. I thought that if something is not transparent it is opaque or cloudy; it is from inclusions, poor cutting or something else. Any more input and explanations? Thank you.
 

RaiKai

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ringo865|1463607523|4033317 said:
But even with the price being "affordable", its still a lot of money considering I really can't see it first or, more importantly, return it after.
:cry:
I know of this stone and communicated with the seller too, but this is my big concern too. I like lower coloured stones, but the brown/gray going on concerns me as to whether I would like it in person. An affordable price for the size, but above affordable if it turns out to not be for you. I think resale in that case might be difficult as it does appeal to a more limited selection of potential buyers. I like cool and unique stones, but it is still a lot of money for "cool" without a return policy.

If you do go for it, I will be very interested in your in person thoughts!
 

Texas Leaguer

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ringo865|1463622444|4033383 said:
Yah, it's a private party, not a retailer, so final sale.

Don't brown tones get the modifier designation below K?
Yes, I believe it should (see chart below). Could be that grade is NOT based on brown. We all might be thrown off by that one face up image that looks brown that you speculate might be reflecting something in the environment. This is why you cannot judge color accurately from images or videos. Too many variables that can throw you WAY off.

If the color grade is not based on brown then it must have some yellow to it that is not evident in the images. Or, somehow the tone itself (gray) is the basis for the color grade. It could be the nature of the material, possibly the graining mentioned on the report under comments, that accounts for the tone.

brown-diamond-color-chart__1_.jpg
 

Karl_K

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It has both clouds not shown and internal graining comments the gray could very well be transparency issues and not color as graded by GIA. That would explain everything.
That is has an etch channel as the primary si1 inclusion points even more to it being messy internally.

That could even cause the peach tone in some lighting.
 

gr8leo87

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The gray stones don't receive a letter grade at that level of saturation.

If it has received a letter grade with out a brown comment the stone has primary body colour of Yellow. It may have other indiscernable mixed tones.

If it's only videos / pictures you're basing your thoughts on - I can tell you those are not enough to reach any conclusion.

But the internal graining (grey or black) may give the stone oily look which has some grey elements to it.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk
 

gr8leo87

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lambskin said:
I have wondered about "grey' looking diamonds- so glad this is discussed. The color range O-P I would think is more brown-yellow (not fancy) than grey color. Yet this stone looks like both. Based on the brownish color in one picture it seems that the lower end of the spectrum is a fair assessment. Yet it looks steel grey also. In these pictures the stone does not look so visably included to make it not transparent. So as a lay person I am confused as to what transparency means in diamonds as Texas Leaguer describes. I thought that if something is not transparent it is opaque or cloudy; it is from inclusions, poor cutting or something else. Any more input and explanations? Thank you.
Cutting doesn't impact opacity / transparency. Experts?

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk
 

Karl_K

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gr8leo87|1463785302|4034197 said:
lambskin said:
I have wondered about "grey' looking diamonds- so glad this is discussed. The color range O-P I would think is more brown-yellow (not fancy) than grey color. Yet this stone looks like both. Based on the brownish color in one picture it seems that the lower end of the spectrum is a fair assessment. Yet it looks steel grey also. In these pictures the stone does not look so visably included to make it not transparent. So as a lay person I am confused as to what transparency means in diamonds as Texas Leaguer describes. I thought that if something is not transparent it is opaque or cloudy; it is from inclusions, poor cutting or something else. Any more input and explanations? Thank you.
Cutting doesn't impact opacity / transparency. Experts?

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk
My thoughts,
For example if a group of clouds is dense one way and not another it could be placed so the less dense side is up.
This would make them less visible as graded by the labs.
You would still get the scatter effect as the light passes through them but a better clarity grade.
They could also be placed at different depths in the cut diamond as well as which virtual facet areas they were in.

If the light passes in and out of the stone in a more direct path it will be effected less by clouds and graining than if it is bounced around multiple times so to some extent cutting can help there.
So I would say yes cutting can impact the transparency effect of clouds and graining by placement, orientation and shorter light paths. Not to mention removing them from the polished diamond in the planning stage by diamond placement in the rough.
 

gr8leo87

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Karl_K said:
gr8leo87|1463785302|4034197 said:
lambskin said:
I have wondered about "grey' looking diamonds- so glad this is discussed. The color range O-P I would think is more brown-yellow (not fancy) than grey color. Yet this stone looks like both. Based on the brownish color in one picture it seems that the lower end of the spectrum is a fair assessment. Yet it looks steel grey also. In these pictures the stone does not look so visably included to make it not transparent. So as a lay person I am confused as to what transparency means in diamonds as Texas Leaguer describes. I thought that if something is not transparent it is opaque or cloudy; it is from inclusions, poor cutting or something else. Any more input and explanations? Thank you.
Cutting doesn't impact opacity / transparency. Experts?

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk
My thoughts,
For example if a group of clouds is dense one way and not another it could be placed so the less dense side is up.
This would make them less visible as graded by the labs.
You would still get the scatter effect as the light passes through them but a better clarity grade.
They could also be placed at different depths in the cut diamond as well as which virtual facet areas they were in.

If the light passes in and out of the stone in a more direct path it will be effected less by clouds and graining than if it is bounced around multiple times so to some extent cutting can help there.
So I would say yes cutting can impact the transparency effect of clouds and graining by placement, orientation and shorter light paths. Not to mention removing them from the polished diamond in the planning stage by diamond placement in the rough.
Interesting points. Agreed that cut plan does and can impact eventual transparency along with clarity grade, colour grade, value, beauty etc. Placement of cloud being very important of course. If a cloud is in the middle of the Pavilion right under the table it's very likely going to make the stone hazy even at very low densities.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk
 

oldminer

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We are dealing here with an already finished diamond, not rough. Sticking to the topic for the sake of consumer information may be important here. Discussions of how to plan around a cloud has value to cutters and dealers, but the client here, this thread, is dealing with the grading report of a diamond which has some issue with a degree of transparency.

I think we can all see darkness in the photos and just like wearing sunglasses, darkness prevents some light from passing through. When we speak about how finely proportioned diamonds return light, we should not make generalizations about cloudy diamonds or visibly tinted diamonds. Those simply cannot transmit back as much light as totally transparent ones would. We split the tiniest hairs over performance and cut, so it seems certain that a visible effect on light transmission would make most of this commentary beyond the topic of how this diamond's proportions and finish would work. We just can't tell how much of a problem, if any, our eyes or our measuring devices might detect with actual light return. However, I suspect it is a scientific certainty that such a stone cannot return 100% of the light a completely transparent, un-tinted diamond, cut identically, could potentially return in identical lighting.

This thread has lots of very important knowledge in it. I think, if anything, it shows why even with grading reports from the best labs, there are a good number of diamonds which remain highly difficult to buy sight unseen. Reports cover many details, but do not cover everything of importance on many features of diamonds which are not always at issue. Here the issue is a common but usually small one which suddenly becomes of rather high importance due to the buyer being distant from the diamond and wanting to rely on the report. In this instance, great and extensive advice from afar may still not resolve the problem.
 
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