Good Old Good charges just to view a diamond?

[GeorgeStevens]

Not everyone sees such tools as helpful. Look, everyone's got their shtick to make a sale, and some will cotton on to technology to distinguish themselves. That doesn't make the technology great.

Buyers can decide whom and how to engage. Personally I look for the best price and place little value on the handholding. At best it's a way to upsell. Forgive my cynicism, but I think one should generally be skeptical when dealing with people in this biz - from the miners who take advantage of the workers and feed corruption in places with weak governments, straight to the hustlers on 47th St via the cutting and polishing sweatshops in India. Not all of my purchases have been amazing, but in general I think I've done OK by trying as best I can to ignore the spiels. This doesn't make me popular, but I'm not trying to be popular.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Kenny- if the discussion was limited to a specific vendor's services, then other tradespeople can't really participate.
The point was a general one- about calling in stones, and that there was a cost to every seller.
That is not the case for many dealers that are located within the main diamond trading areas of the world. NYC being one of the most active.
I got Jon's point- when requesting a stone from overseas, the buyer pays the shipping- that's customary.
Furthermore, I wholeheartedly agree with a GOG- or any vendors right to charge for calling stones in- and for additional services. That might be reflector testing- or it might be a series of photos and or videos in varied lighting to give the buyer confidence in their selection. Both of those cost real money regardless of shipping. I also get that if you don't charge, you get a lot of people wasting your time for nothing.
Believe me, I get it.
Some sellers charge to call stones in- others do not.
My personal philosophy is that these costs are indeed inherent in the business, rather than additional to it.


Here's MY car analogy.
People are willing pay the price for a Porsche that is outperformed by a Corvette at 60% the price. They're also willing to accept other added costs to get the quality they desire. I used to pay $800 for an oil change- and I'd only have it done at the Porsche dealer. Plus buyers of new Porsche 911's have a lot less negotiating power than when buying a "normal" new car.
In a given market, some dealers can even charge for a test drive.
Which allows other dealers NOT to charge which then becomes yet another added value.
It's simple economics.

You did raise a question of the value added services we provide- thank you for asking.
I'm very proud of the added value DBL offers our clients.

 

[distracts]

First, the consumer should shop around. But they should do their evaluations of a vendor and that vendor's policies up front.

Yep, this. I think there is enough room in the industry for businesses with different methods of business to operate. I would have no problem with paying a deposit upfront if I was confident in working with the vendor. But if you do have a problem with that, or if you're not 100% confident in the vendor? Don't sweat it. Just pick another vendor. There are a lot of them out there. Heck, there are several in this thread alone.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Not everyone sees such tools as helpful. Look, everyone's got their shtick to make a sale, and some will cotton on to technology to distinguish themselves. That doesn't make the technology great.

Buyers can decide whom and how to engage. Personally I look for the best price and place little value on the handholding. At best it's a way to upsell. Forgive my cynicism, but I think one should generally be skeptical when dealing with people in this biz - from the miners who take advantage of the workers and feed corruption in places with weak governments, straight to the hustlers on 47th St via the cutting and polishing sweatshops in India. Not all of my purchases have been amazing, but in general I think I've done OK by trying as best I can to ignore the spiels. This doesn't make me popular, but I'm not trying to be popular.

George, I thought you bought a simulant for your wife's engagement ring (and didn't tell her). So what kind of diamonds have you been purchasing?

As for me, I only buy from vendors who have excellent reputations. There are several here for whom I have high regard even though I haven't actually bought from them all. There are hundreds and possibly thousands of positive testimonials on this forum over the last 10+ years that provide evidence of vendors' reputations.

As to the comment someone made about James Allen, I believe they are owned by a diamond supplier so they are basically selling their own diamonds. It is not like a diamond vendor such as Jon, Wink, or WF. They all have an in-house supply of diamonds and can seek out sources of outside diamonds that best suit their client. They are not limited to one diamond supplier. They can and do access many suppliers and they call carry high cut quality diamonds and some specialty cut diamonds. You can't call up JA and tell them you want to see some cushion diamonds cut by Yoram, for example. Jon knows superior cutters for certain style stones, and he can access them because he is not limited to one supplier. So the fact that JA can bring in their own stones to NY is comparing apples and oranges. Although, Jon can and has brought in stones that are listed on the JA site because he can access most of those, too. So I would guess that I'd have far more options of diamonds through Jon than JA. I don't have anything against JA as I think they do what they do fairly well and I do sometimes recommend their stones to people when I find one that fits their specs there. But in cases where they don't have a great stone, you're out of luck.

 

[Texas Leaguer]

I think this is a good discussion and an important area of the business for consumers to fully understand.

As has already been mentioned, many companies have access to the same “virtual” inventories. Some simply drop-ship them, others provide comprehensive analytical services to protect the consumer and to provide additional information that many consumers want about the diamonds they are buying.

Many of the sellers do list the diamonds at razor sharp prices for a variety of reasons. It is therefore difficult for any seller to market these diamonds at higher than the lowest advertised price, and it becomes necessary for them to justify any higher price by providing added value. This is as it should be for the consumer, as long as they do understand the differences between the various companies offering them and the services and benefits included or not included.

As some have said here, there are many consumers who want the lowest price and do not feel the need for the added services. The good news for these consumers is there are far more sellers out there in this category!

Some time back we did an analysis on the cost to bring in a virtual diamond and run our gemological evaluations, light performance imaging, and administrative and logistics handling through our entire quality control system. Interestingly, it turned out to be right about $300 on average. If you are looking at a $3000 diamond that is listed at 10% over cost, you can see what that does to your net profit! Yes, “razor thin” is this case is an understate!

We took a different approach to the problem. We decided to continue to provide all the value added services for free, and to provide a full refund guarantee, but to require payment in full before we bring in a diamond. This ensures that the customer is fully qualified and completely understands our value proposition.
Details of our policy are here: http://www.whiteflash.com/about-diamonds/whiteflash-policies/other-diamonds.htm

This was not meant as a pitch, just to shed light on our experience and the business considerations that went into our particular policy decision.

 

[denverappraiser]

Not everyone sees such tools as helpful. Look, everyone's got their shtick to make a sale, and some will cotton on to technology to distinguish themselves. That doesn't make the technology great.

Buyers can decide whom and how to engage. Personally I look for the best price and place little value on the handholding. At best it's a way to upsell. Forgive my cynicism, but I think one should generally be skeptical when dealing with people in this biz - from the miners who take advantage of the workers and feed corruption in places with weak governments, straight to the hustlers on 47th St via the cutting and polishing sweatshops in India. Not all of my purchases have been amazing, but in general I think I've done OK by trying as best I can to ignore the spiels. This doesn't make me popular, but I'm not trying to be popular.

George,

I’m curious about your post. Everyone, of course, likes good prices but the question always includes the best price for WHAT? You can get a diamond for $10 or you can spend $1,000.000 after all. There are certain things that drive up the price and some that don’t. Not everyone agree on those two lists but one of the key premises of Pricescope is that there are value characteristics that don’t appear on a GIA grading report. Do you disagree with this? The reflector tools, photomicrographs and such are an attempt to help to differentiate these stones. I certainly understand their weaknesses but if not these, what do YOU use for that purpose? Are there tools or resources that you find helpful?

 

[Rockdiamond]

I read George's post a bit differently.
He see's reflector technology as another "shtick" to distinguish a seller.
I don't agree that there's anything wrong with using these technologies to add value- so I don't agree with the term "shtick"
But I do agree sellers these technologies them to add value, and distinguish themselves.

About adding value- and if it's possible.
That's my main disagreement with George's post.
For sure there's some very cheap places to buy diamonds on the web- and the regular readers here know exactly who they are and routinely send buyers to those sites.
We're not one of the cheap ones.
In fact, when someone asks us "what's the cheapest price for xyz?" we send them to those very same sites.
We're not going to give up adding the value we add.
George- some of the points you make are unfortunately all to true. Buyers NEED to be skeptical of the claims of many diamond sellers. Although this forum is a great place to separate thew wheat from the chaff, there's a lot of "shtick" being attempted in stores and on eBay and websites.
BUT- please don't paint with such a broad brush.
An honest competent dealer can add a lot of value to diamond ownership.
Neil- a great replacement for reflector technology is strong visuals- let the buyers see a lot of photos, and possibly video.
That's going to give them the best idea on what the stone looks like IMO- particularly true with Fancy Shapes. Or of course looking at a variety of diamonds in person, if possible, is far better then reflector images.

 

[Modified Brilliant]

Here's another angle from an appraisers view....years ago, we were asked to provide reports such as Sarin, ASET, etc to the potential buyer to add to their level of confidence before making a purchase. Years later, many vendors provide all the supporting documents that a prospective buyer may need including Sarin, ASET, reflector technology, lab reports, etc. Now the appraiser in most cases acts as an additional and experienced set of eyes with a broad perspective and scope of knowledge to help the consumer choose a diamond. We are viewing the diamond, verifying all the reports, making comments, and providing real up-close evaluation of the diamond while the client is in our office. Our job reverts back to the basics. With the combination of all the reports and the up-close visuals, our clients can now make even a more informed decision. Appraisers today (and I speak for some of us) are seeing more clients who really want the benefit of seeing their diamond in real life and getting opinions and comments from a qualified appraiser. There is alot of money at stake with most diamond purchases and some consumers want an unbiased opinion. Today, as an appraiser, I serve as a "diamond consultant," "friend of the diamond buyer" "second opinion person" and whatever else that is required to give you 100% confidence in your purchase.

 

[denverappraiser]

Neil- a great replacement for reflector technology is strong visuals- let the buyers see a lot of photos, and possibly video.
That's going to give them the best idea on what the stone looks like IMO- particularly true with Fancy Shapes. Or of course looking at a variety of diamonds in person, if possible, is far better then reflector images.

I'm going to guess that photographs and photomicrographs fall into George's category of shtick too but I don't mean to speak for him. That's why I asked.

Taking good pictures is pretty hard and some people are a lot better at it than others. This may or may not have anything to do with the stone. Photos can be and regularly are done in a deceptive way. That means the vetting of the jeweler is an important step, not just looking at a cert and a Rap sheet. Indeed, that strategy almost always fails. As you point out, ebay and craigslist are chock full of 'deals' where the problem is less than obvious.

 

[thediamondshopper]

As a vendor I find this conversation very interesting.

While it is a common feeling that there are "good margins" on diamonds, in fact the margins on virtual inventory are razor thin, less than 10%. Thus the cost to bring in a diamond, examine it, and then ship it back if it is not sold are able to quickly erode the little profit that is available on the diamond.

Most of the internet vendors have huge lists of diamonds available. Much of that inventory is virtual and can be found from many different locations. Sadly, it is not uncommon for many consumers to call inquiring about several stones and wanting all of the information that can only be garnered from personal inspection and then when that information is received to go back out on the net and find which vendor is $5 cheaper than the other vendors. That cheaper vendor gets the sale without having incurred any of the expense or providing any of the information other than the cert number and measurements. That cheaper vendor will never even see the diamond, but rather have it shipped directly to the end user from the wholesaler. They will collect their 5 to 7% and go on to the next sale, leaving the vendor who was willing to provide the information holding the bag and out the shipping and insurance costs as well as the value of their time and the equipment used to provide the information.

Fair? As a vendor, I think not. As a consumer, well gosh, of course it is. (Actually, I think most consumers realize that it is not, but that does not stop many from doing it. A few have even offered me the "opportunity" to match the lower price, but only after the work has been done.)

Frankly, I admire Jonathon for taking the initiative of saying, "Hey, I will do the work, this is what it costs. If you buy the diamond I will apply it towards your purchase."

It is fair, it is only a few dollars above his actual costs if you include the value of his or an employee's time, and it lets you decide if having that information is worth the few dollars that it costs or if you would rather buy the pig in a poke. If I was a consumer who was able to do all my own testing and decision making, I would go for the cheapest vendor on the net. If I was a consumer who was going to do this once or twice in my life, I would certainly spend a few more dollars to be sure I actually got what I was paying for.

Life is full of choices. Some of them will be good, some will be okay and some will be, OUCH, I REALLY WANT A DO OVER!

As an early mentor used to tell me, "Wink, if you think education is expensive, just try ignorance."

Wink

VERY WELL SAID!