Good Old Gold AVR - Is this a bad inclusion for an Si1?

[AVOEC]

Guy with a first time post here. Just bought a 1ct, G color, Si1, GOG AVR engagement ring for my amazing girlfriend. (shhh! i haven't proposed to her yet!) I went to GOG's brick and mortar store a few weeks ago to look at purchasing a H&A. They brought out the H&A round I saw online next to this AVR for comparison... and that was it ... the AVR just blew me away when I saw it in person. I had seen it on the website before, but the pictures and videos just don't do it justice.

As a semi-clueless guy, I'd like to hear from all you ladies out there if you think the inclusion pictured under the table is too noticeable or not.

I was originally looking at H&A stones mostly because the selection was very limited for near colorless AVRs in my price range. Ideally I would have liked an Si1 with a more peripherally located inclusion, but selection is limited. No (affordable) diamond is perfect, so finding the right set of compromises is the name of the game i guess. I'm hoping that this just barely eye-visible inclusion is a small price to pay in exchange for an otherwise optically awesome and rare round.

This seems like the only downside of the AVR: big chunky facets leave less places for inclusions to hide unnoticed.

Here is a video of the stone that shows that inclusion well:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bt7EePohnI&list=UUEV7slr-i-VduBBnfv9MxhA&index=17&feature=plcp

And here is the diamond's web page at GOG:

http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/7348/

This picture below illustrates this inclusion at its most obvious (so this is the worst of it). It is a dark feather that is close to the table surface. In real life, if you're looking really close, the inclusion looks like a piece of thick dust landed on the table, if you can see it at all. It is really only seen if the facet just underneath lights up in diffuse light as shown below.



I'm freaking out just a bit because the AGS certified dealer in my home town told me this diamond should be graded I1 because "the inclusion is clearly eye-visible and located right underneath the table." She then proceeded to show me pages from GIA and AGS grading manuals, and showed me her Si1 stones under 10x to illustrate her point.

Please offer me honest opinions. I love every other aspect of this stone. If you were buying this stone with your own hard earned money would this inclusion be a deal breaker for you?

 

[webdiva]

I just watched the video and OMG, I can't see past the BEAUTIFUL diamond with huge sparkles to see this inclusion you speak of! Awesome choice, it's gorgeous! I can't see the inclusion on the giant blown up picture of the diamond, either.

Does this dealer sell diamonds? Sounds like a bit of sour grapes...

 

[Gypsy]

I can't say if it's something that should bother you or not. If it's eye visible to you then it's just an issue of what bothers you or not.

I WOULD propose SOONER rather than later while you are still in your return window if you have doubts though.

But I would NOT give that appraiser's comments much weight here's why:

The stone IS AGS graded. So AGS obviously KNOWS what the qualifications for an SI stone versus an I clarity stone are. AND THEY CHOSE SI1. Now, your appraiser might THINK she knows what she is talking about. But the FACT is that much more experienced appraisers hired by AGS (who has NOTHING to gain and a LOT to lose by loose grading) agreed the stone is SI. And graded it that way. Now SHE might disagree but there is no certification or regulation with appraisers and I gotta tell you from personal experience there are a LOT of crappy appraisers out there. And the chances that your appraiser is WRONG are a LOT (like 99%) higher than AGS making a mistake. PERIOD. And this appraiser is NOT independent which makes it even MORE likely they are wrong (and maybe even on purpose). Which is why we always recommend independent appraisers ONLY. AGS's clarity ratings have never been in question only very rarely their color ratings.

*I* have seen VS stones with eye visible inclusions from the top. GIA graded too.

Just take what she says with a HUGE grain of salt. The diamond is GORGEOUS. If the clarity is problematic to you eyes, that's fine. And you can fix that by asking GOG for a different stone that is eyeclean. And that may just mean a different SI stone. Not all SI's are equal.

 

[BeachGirlG]

That diamond is absolutely gorgeous!!!
As far as the inclusion goes...is it very obvious in person? I really can't see it in the video or in GOG's pic. Remember that most people are going to view it at arm's length, not under a microscope.

 

[AVOEC]

AGS's clarity ratings have never been in question only very rarely their color ratings.

Thanks for commenting on that. That was a question of mine as I know there has been talk of some aspects of AGS being a bit looser than GIA.

 

[hoover]

I think that's a gorgeous stone! the brilliant flashes of light in the video are simply mesmerizing!

Watching the video and looking at the pics, to my untrained eyes, i only see the tiny spot if I focus really hard, stare at it cross-eyed, and stick my tongue out

How much does this inclusion bother you? Is it mind clean enough with a "piece of dust" on it, or do you need it to be completely eye clean? As Gypsy has said, maybe propose to your gf while you're still in the return window and see if she notices the inclusion at all. You two would really be the best judges as to whether it's okay or not

 

[Gypsy]

AGS's clarity ratings have never been in question only very rarely their color ratings.

Thanks for commenting on that. That was a question of mine as I know there has been talk of some aspects of AGS being a bit looser than GIA.

It's a scary big purchase! Of course you are nervous and second guessing. And it doesn't help when someone you see as a professional pulls out books and is out to create doubt for you.

Honestly for me, the rating is irrelevant except for pricing. I think you should see if there is anything on GOG that looks better to you. If not, just propose with it and see what she says. It's really REALLY really REALLY ridiculously beautiful though.

 

[chel180]

Its a beautiful stone. The inclusion doesn't bother me personally but then I am not very inclusion sensitive. I would do as gypsy suggests and propose sooner rather than later so your gf can decide. At the end of the day its only her opinion that matters.

 

[marymm]

I think it is a beautiful stone, but to me based on the video it is definitely an easily seen and noticeable inclusion - for me, I would not want a stone with a visible inclusion in the center of the table to be my ER stone... but that is me -- you have to decide what you think now that it is in your hands and based on your own criteria (and your GF's).

 

[John P]

I'm freaking out just a bit because the AGS certified dealer in my home town told me this diamond should be graded I1 ...

First: Some shapes/makes hide inclusions better than others. The broad faceting pattern of your AVR can cause inclusions to be a bit more visible than in a standard RB - in the same way SI inclusions can be more visible in long-faceted step cuts. It's a tiny give and take for the performance-look you prefer.

Second: Eye-visible is NOT a factor at GIA or AGSL. Why? Partly because of what I described in the paragraph above, but mostly because human eyesight differs radically from person to person. Grading is done under magnification so that graders have the opportunity to be consistent beyond normal human vision. AGSL has discussed making eye-visible inclusions blue on the clarity plot but it's always a non-starter when they get to the question; who do we choose to set the standard - and how on earth can we be consistent from grader Billy Buckeye (age 21) to grader Melody Midlife (age 45) to grader Vinnie Veteran (age 60)?

It's true that a range of opinions can be supported, including that of the dealer who didn't sell it to you. I've seen plenty of diamonds that I could make a case for being + or - the given grade, especially in the broad SI clarity range. But the bottom line is that the lab staff who does this all day judged it SI1. If there was any disagreement in the process a supervisor was included. The final consensus was SI1.

Let me ask: Are you obsessing on this because you think she will obsess on it too? Or are you in diamond "new car" stage where you're walking around it five times a day, bending close to patrol for scuffs you might not worry about down the road a bit?

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I really could hardly see it, but I do buy higher clarity stones for myself. I think it all depends on whether she notices it and whether it bothers her. I think the diamond looks incredibly beautiful and it makes me want one badly!!!

It doesn't really matter if you propose within 30 days because Jon will let you trade in the stone at any point if you want one at equal or greater price.

 

[AVOEC]

Let me ask: Are you obsessing on this because you think she will obsess on it too? Or are you in diamond "new car" stage where you're walking around it five times a day, bending close to patrol for scuffs you might not worry about down the road a bit?

I think you're exactly right, I'm in the "new car" stage. Just kicking the tires and looking for any possibility for future buyers remorse because:

1) I've never spent this much money before in my life (well, other than college and grad school.) I can comfortably afford it and paid in full, but it's still a HUGE purchase. I would never allow myself to spend the kind of money that a VS clarity diamond of this color and cut quality commands these days.

2) I want this to be THE diamond. Don't really plan on upgrading down the road, and I doubt she would want to. I still want to see the same stone on her finger when we're (god willing) old and grey so that it stands as a reminder of how we felt when I first put that same diamond on her finger. I feel like an upgrade kills that romantic symbolism to me. My 83 year old grandmother sees her non-upgraded diamond engagement ring that way.

It's not like I wasn't fully aware of this inclusion when I bought the stone. I can say nothing but fantastic things about my experience with GOG. I compared this diamond to many others in their inventory and it was the winner of every side by side comparison as long as I wasn't looking point blank at that inclusion. I even compared it to an IF I color that was otherwise the exact same AVR cut and size and price. It wasn't hard for me to determine that I found the color of the G vs the color of the I more important than the clarity of the IF vs the clarity of this Si1. I guess I'm just a bit neurotic. I'm not too worried about her reaction to eventually noticing the inclusion, she's not a diamond connoisseur and doesn't obsess over these kinds of things the way I do. She is just as near-sighted as me tho.

Basically I posted all of this to settle one final dispute I have in my head:

I think the stone is awesome. When I received it in the mail after having it set my only reaction was "wow!...it's...it's perfect!"

I just wanted to make sure that "diamond people" (I assume most of you on this site) don't think other people are going to look at her ring and think... "geez, that's a quite noticeable inclusion, he must have been blind to pick that stone for an engagement ring!"

 

[Enerchi]

Gorgeous! Wouldn't worry if that were my stone - I'd be dazzled by the brilliant scintillation and I'd be found under every spot light from here to Timbuktu!!! I think John P has a good point - new car fever. You notice EVERYTHING and you notice it at about a bazillion times intense than you will a month, a year down the road. All photos/videos are highly magnified and in your still photos - I can't notice a thing.

Pretty confident she'll be blown away

 

[John P]

Let me ask: Are you obsessing on this because you think she will obsess on it too? Or are you in diamond "new car" stage where you're walking around it five times a day, bending close to patrol for scuffs you might not worry about down the road a bit?

I think you're exactly right, I'm in the "new car" stage. Just kicking the tires and looking for any possibility for future buyers remorse because:

Okay, I'm with you. Been there, done that - not just with diamonds. It is a huge spend and --- while meaningful --- this is a major outlay for something that has been valued according to subjective criteria. It's natural to second-guess and obsess. I'm sure hearing the "I1" pronouncement tipped your mental scales a bit, but for what it's worth I think that comment can be set aside.

I think the stone is awesome. When I received it in the mail after having it set my only reaction was "wow!...it's...it's perfect!" I just wanted to make sure that "diamond people" (I assume most of you on this site) don't think other people are going to look at her ring and think... "geez, that's a quite noticeable inclusion, he must have been blind to pick that stone for an engagement ring!"

Don't worry about a forum of alien enthusiasts and pros who aren't even looking at the live diamond. If you want opinions from people who will be "looking at her ring" take it to a few male and female buddies and show it to them. Don't ask them about anything specific, just show them the diamond and ask what they think of it. Get their instinctive reactions. After the initial feedback, you might tell them there's an inclusion in the stone that can be seen if you look hard enough. Ask if they can see it and whether it bothers them. Seek some different light conditions if you do this a few times. There's some public opinion for you... But you and your lady are really the only ones with opinions that matter.

There's also the fact that some people like having an inclusion in their diamond that can be found without too much trouble, because you can always know right away that it's your diamond (upon return from getting it cleaned, prongs tightened, etc). Of course the fact that it's an AVR takes care of that right away There are also people, particularly in Europe, who seek stones with minor inclusions because they consider such characteristics birthmarks that make their stone natural and special. Like Marilyn Monroe's beauty mark.

 

[Gypsy]

Perfect posts as always John. It didn't even occur to me to advise to show the diamond to friends and see what they say about the inclusion. That's great advice. And I also appreciated the information on how the grading works at the labs in more detail.

Is there a way you might write a short article about grading for clarity, how it works, what the considerations are-- just building on this post so that there is an easy to link to article so we can help other posters with it?

 

[AVOEC]

Thanks so much for all the thoughtful and detailed input everyone, especially Gypsy and John P. I really appreciate it. I've shown the ring to just 2 people because the proposal is uber top secret and I'm afraid of hints being leaked somewhere along the line. Loose lips sink ships...

 

[Enerchi]

Thanks so much for all the thoughtful and detailed input everyone, especially Gypsy and John P. I really appreciate it. I've shown the ring to just 2 people because the proposal is uber top secret and I'm afraid of hints being leaked somewhere along the line. Loose lips sink ships...

and what were their thoughts? could they see any inclusions?

 

[Gypsy]

Thanks so much for all the thoughtful and detailed input everyone, especially Gypsy and John P. I really appreciate it. I've shown the ring to just 2 people because the proposal is uber top secret and I'm afraid of hints being leaked somewhere along the line. Loose lips sink ships...

Pick perfect strangers. Seriously. Women love it when guys ask for help. Just go to Starbucks or Barnes and Noble's cafe, order a drink and while you are there pull the ring out and ask a few women what they think. Tell them you are about to propose but you are nervous. Then point out the inclusion, tell them you have a return policy, and ask them what they think.

And you are MORE than welcome!

 

[AVOEC]

Thanks so much for all the thoughtful and detailed input everyone, especially Gypsy and John P. I really appreciate it. I've shown the ring to just 2 people because the proposal is uber top secret and I'm afraid of hints being leaked somewhere along the line. Loose lips sink ships...

and what were their thoughts? could they see any inclusions?

no one has said anything about the inclusion yet. Gypsy makes a great point, i should test it out on some strangers a few towns away.

 

[Gypsy]

Just as an aside. If if there was a big black inclusion in a stone a guy pulled out that he's already bought and showed me, I don't think I would tell him anything other than 'it's lovely, she'll love it!" UNLESS the guy pointed out the inclusion, told me he could return the stone and get another, AND asked me for HONESTY. So... just make sure you do all that. Otherwise all you are going to get is a bunch of women trying to calm the stressed guy out.

 

[ariel144]

I think if you picked this stone over an I IF then it IS THE ONE! I believe that she will be thrilled that you have such wonderful taste and went the extra mile to find a diamond that is more beautiful than 99% of all the diamonds on the market today. It is special because you chose it for her. I'm sure she would have picked it over the I IF too.

Relax, it is a gorgeous stone!

 

[John P]

Perfect posts as always John. It didn't even occur to me to advise to show the diamond to friends and see what they say about the inclusion. That's great advice. And I also appreciated the information on how the grading works at the labs in more detail.

Is there a way you might write a short article about grading for clarity, how it works, what the considerations are-- just building on this post so that there is an easy to link to article so we can help other posters with it?

Thanks a lot Gypsy. If I can find the time I'll be happy to compose such a piece.

Great follow-up advice about asking strangers. I'd just add - if you choose to do this - be security conscious. Choose a safe, upscale location, don't linger and don't make it habitual. Nothing says "jack me" like flashing bling to strangers at the Compton Starbucks a few days in a row, then walking back to your car after dark.