Good New Yorker piece on gender and public bathrooms

[partgypsy]

Maybe i'm old fashioned but I like that there are mens and womens bathrooms, and not a single unisex bathroom. Going to college as a freshman the majority of dorms were unisex, but both my sister and I chose a women's only floor so we would not have to share a bathroom. I don't have a problem with a man transitioning to a women using the women's bathroom. I'm assuming this would be a pretty uncommon occurence.

 

[packrat]

I've been in plenty of bathrooms that are just one single bathroom w/both the man/woman on the front together. But it's me, by myself, or w/my kids. Or other female friends. I've seen a lot of "family" bathrooms too-Target has them. And I used it once b/c the regular women's bathroom was packed, and I'll never do it again unless I absolutely have to. Unisex bathrooms are atrocious.

Actually, I've been in one female bathroom, at the bowling alley, that had two stalls, each just wide enough for the toilet-no doors, AND the divider in the middle? hahaha yeaaaah it was *just* to the end of the toilet bowl. But, I'd never been in there before so, when I was closing the door and another woman came and asked if there was more than one stall, I glanced, Oh yep, there's two! And held the door open. We turned around and were like so um..this is pretty intimate, I guess we'll be besties by the time we're done?? And we had to lean forward (see how small it was???) to turn the faucet on b/c it awkward.

 

[chrono]

I appreciate using the family bathroom when my boys were younger and DH wasn't around to bring them to the men's restroom.

Packrat,
Thanks and good luck on your Green Belt test. It's more mental than anything else. You've been training so you have the strength and technique. All you need now is determination and belief in yourself that you can do it!

 

[purplesparklies]

Chrome and packrat,

Congrats to both of you for taking this journey with your kids. I considered it but opted out. I get my fitness in as a Zumba instructor and didn't want to risk hurting myself. I have a back issue that flares up when I do kickboxing and I didn't want to risk an injury. It is so impressive to see how well everyone progresses and grows stronger. TKD has been great for my boys and gives me some peace of mind that they will have tools available if they ever find themselves in a position of needing them. I have been impressed with the self control of my oldest, recently. He has had two instances when he could have chosen to get involved in a fight and he chose to help break it up instead. Whew. [emoji15]

Congrats to you and your kids on your accomplishments and best of luck moving forward!

 

[chrono]

Actually, I started TKD many years ago and am now a 5th degree black belt (Kukkiwon). I love this sport so much and see huge benefits that I signed my boys up for it. I've rarely gotten injured doing TKD whereas I've gotten injured doing other sports more often. I also used to compete but my body cannot do it competitively anymore.

 

[purplesparklies]

Holy smokes! That is outstanding, Chrono!

I always wanted to take martial arts, since I was a kid even, and was very tempted when we signed my boys up. Unfortunately, I can not do much of the punching motion or I end up having muscle spasms. I hate that because I really enjoy kickboxing and just can't do it. Have tried a few different times after mess, physical therapy, stretching, strengthening, etc. Kickboxing was fantastic for relieving frustration and was extremely effective at changing my body quickly. I'm sure there would be similar benefits from TKD.

 

[Jambalaya]

Actually, I started TKD many years ago and am now a 5th degree black belt (Kukkiwon). I love this sport so much and see huge benefits that I signed my boys up for it. I've rarely gotten injured doing TKD whereas I've gotten injured doing other sports more often. I also used to compete but my body cannot do it competitively anymore.

I am never arguing with you. Ever!

Nice Chrono!

 

[kenny]

Actually, I started TKD many years ago and am now a 5th degree black belt (Kukkiwon). I love this sport so much and see huge benefits that I signed my boys up for it. I've rarely gotten injured doing TKD whereas I've gotten injured doing other sports more often. I also used to compete but my body cannot do it competitively anymore.

Kudos, Chrono!

 

[telephone89]

It is interesting what you say, Telephone, and I agree with some of it. I have a male friend who is married with kids (to a woman) and has always had girlfriends, swears he isn't gay, but sometimes wears a subtle touch of makeup.

But, in the example you cite about the acne, isn't that a practical concern to hide an unsightly medical condition? I've had my fair share of male relatives, friends, partners etc, and none of them except that one example has shown the slightest interest in makeup for reasons to enhance and perfect something which already looks acceptable - that is, none except one I know have shown any interest in "beauty." I also think that jewelry is more acceptable on men than makeup. There is more than one male server at the local restaurants who wear large CZ studs in each ear. The servers are gay, admittedly. I've never known a straight man express any desire to wear jewelry. No men in my life have ever wandered over to my jewelry box or makeup bag, or asked questions about the makeup and jewelry that I'm wearing, or really even noticed that I'm wearing those things. I've even asked them if they like them, and their eyes glaze over. I don't believe they were hiding an innate desire to wear makeup and jewelry - their lack of interest was complete.

I really believe that the majority of straight men are genuinely not interested in such things and that this is a matter of mostly inborn gender preferences. I grew up in an era which was much less consumerist, didn't have a TV until I was well into my teens - and I just remember loving girly things as far back as I can remember, and I really don't think that I was "sold" on anything. My parents didn't shove it at me. I saw my mother, I saw my father, and I just knew that I would much prefer to wear a dress than a suit and tie, from being very young. Somehow, I knew I would look really silly in the latter, but that the former would flatter my shape when I became a grown-up.

We accept that animals display different decorations and mating behavior according to gender. Male peacocks have their plumage tails which they wave around to the female peacocks, and you don't see female peacocks trying to steal the men's colorful tail feathers and hold them in their beaks and wave them around at their opposites in order to be like the male peacocks. We also don't try to make all the peacocks all the same. Why is the idea of men and women being innately different in some preferences so hard to accept, when we accept it in the animal kingdom? We are animals too.

And what about all the anecdotal parental evidence of those parents who have both boys and girls?

Also, if we have no inborn preferences but it's all society-based, why do some transgender people feel so very strongly that they are the opposite sex to the one they were born? Many of them report feeling this way since being extremely young - identifying with female gender or male gender, strongly. If gender is all about society, what does that say about the strong feelings of transgender people that they have been born in the wrong body?

I know we haven't yet unraveled all the mysteries of why the genders behave they way they do, and I do believe that some of it is society-based, yes, but I believe much of it is inborn. FWIW, I would have no problem whatsoever with men wearing makeup. I think many of them would look really good with some flattering makeup. I'm not sure that jewelry flatters the somewhat large, muscly male frame as well as the smaller female one, but hey, if men want to wear jewelry then they should, and it should be celebrated.

JMO.

I don't think society is 100% at fault of course, there are absolutely some born traits. As you say, trans individuals. But there is a difference for trans folk - FEELING like a woman is different than simply liking dresses. That is not what being a woman is about. They feel so strongly that they are in the wrong body, and it might not have anything to do with makeup or dresses or jewellery. I don't think many men transition to women because it's more acceptable to wear a dress, it's much deeper than that.

As for makeup, I think many men would wear it if it weren't marked ONLY to women. You can't go to the drug store and find any men in the ads, or makeup products specifically for men. Heck, it was considered a 'metrosexual' thing for men to CLEANSE and MOISTURIZE their face until more recently! Basic basic things that women would never dream of being made fun of for. And my anecdotal evidence, while not all encompassing, I think does speak to the fact that there are SOME males who wish it were socially acceptable to wear makeup. I've heard comments like 'girls have it so easy, just cake on the makeup and look perfect' and that sort of thing. Obviously, that is incorrect as women face intense pressure for that, but there is a more acceptable option for women to wear or not wear makeup. For men that doesn't ring as true.

As far as your childhood, and many others, girls have been treated differently for a very long time. There was a time when women even wearing pants was taboo. Girls are taught to be quiet, sweet, don't swear. But boys - oh boys will be boys. Playing in the dirt, hitting/wrestling each other, bad language. Is it because we are born that way, or because that's how our parents were raised, and that's how they raised us?

This topic is very fascinating to me. I for sure don't know all the answers, but its an interesting discussion for sure.

 

[packrat]

Chrono, holy smokes, way to rock it! My instructor is a 5th Dan and is possibly going to test this next December..I'm kinda hoping she does b/c I bet watching the higher ranks test is just amazing. I find that when I'm practicing before class on my lower forms, if she practices her forms also, I eventually am not paying attention to what I'm doing b/c it's so cool to watch her.

It is mental, I agree..I was all psyched up before my test last time b/c my board break as an orange for my low green was a kick I'd never really practiced. A brown belt had shown me a couple times after class once and that was it. Reverse crescent I think? Anyway, I nailed it, first try and was SO surprised! My reverse kick as a yellow for my orange belt, I finally got it on the fourth try, so I had myself convinced I'd never get the other. Jd recorded it and watches it all the time. Now this one coming up is a JUMP reverse kick. I just feel like a galumphing elephant or something. More practice practice practice!

I love it tho and am so glad I made myself start. And made myself keep going even tho I felt so weird/out of it the first few classes.

Sorry, didn't mean to ramble about TKD! JD's not into it, (he doesn't feel it's "real") so I don't have anyone to talk to about it!

ETA I've not gotten *hurt* at TKD class--but the instructor's son has been back the last few months and he is a punisher when he leads class. He made us do push ups and then jump up (haha I can't jump up, I'm busy lumbering myself to my feet) and go right to the white belt form and I couldn't feel my arms. Today I'm limping b/c he was hard on us Tuesday so class tonight will be...interesting.

 

[Jambalaya]

Telephone - I won't re-quote our whole conversation here, as it's long, but this post is a reply to yours above. I agree it's a fascinating topic, really fascinating. How much of gender construct is society, and how much is inborn? Marketing can certainly be very powerful.

Full disclosure: I am and have always been a very girly person, and all those feminine behaviors we've been discussing feel so right to me. I'm so pink that I can't imagine being a woman and not wanting to wear makeup and jewelry. So this might color my judgement.

But if the genders are indeed more similar than popularly supposed, that would be an argument for unisex bathrooms all-round. Whether we are uncomfortable because we really are innately different or because it's mostly societal construct, is a very interesting question.

You know, I really would feel very comfortable if men wore makeup, and have thought to myself before that it's a pity they "can't" wear it. I'm surprised more of them don't dabble in it a little, like my friend. You can really do the no-makeup look. Maybe we should tell them about that! I had a boyfriend with the most amazing beautiful brown eyes I'd ever seen, and I wanted to make them up. He was horrified though.

I also agree about the raising of boys and girls and yes, I remember the days when women always wore dresses. My grandmother always wore an actual dress and my mother always wore skirts. I don't remember them ever wearing pants, ever. That one has to be social construct because most women today - me included - love wearing a flattering pair of jeans!

But in cavepeople societies and early societies, didn't the males and females have distinct and different gender-prescribed roles? If it was all our society and marketing etc, you'd expect to find gender-neutral societies if you go back far enough.

This whole question is a real head-scratcher!

 

[purplesparklies]

So I just saw an article about a woman who believes she is a cat stuck in a human body. Apparently, she wears ears and a tail and meows at people. ??? For some reason, that made me think of this thread. I remember reading about another woman who truly believed she was a wolf. Perhaps we will have to add litter boxes and patches of lawn to our gender neutral restrooms. Makes me wonder, where does it end?

 

[kenny]

So I just saw an article about a woman who believes she is a cat stuck in a human body. Apparently, she wears ears and a tail and meows at people. ??? For some reason, that made me think of this thread. I remember reading about another woman who truly believed she was a wolf. Perhaps we will have to add litter boxes and patches of lawn to our gender neutral restrooms. Makes me wonder, where does it end?

I'm a Catholic stuck in an atheist's body.

I'll tell ya, it just never ends.
... and thank gods, because really, who else (who's different from us) could we belittle and marginalize?

IOW, Really Lady?
You don't know who's whacko, and who's for real?

GMAB.

 

[purplesparklies]

I'm a Catholic stuck in an atheist's body.

I'll tell ya, it just never ends.
... and thank gods, because really, who else (who's different from us) could we belittle and marginalize?

IOW, Really Lady?
You don't know who's whacko, and who's for real?

GMAB.

I am not belittling or marginalizing anyone. I'm simply asking a question. People feel all kinds of ways and society wants everyone to accept all those who choose to live differently. No problem. People get to live however they'd like. But when we consider issues like public restrooms, articles like the one I read today and previous articles like the one about the wolf lady or one about a middle aged man who is living as 6-year old girl, at some point one's right to choose to live a lifestyle like this can impact the rest of us. Should the middle aged man who lives as a 6-year old girl be permitted to use the restroom with the other little girls? I'm just asking is there a point when one says, enough is enough? There are always people who will seem extreme even to the extreme.

 

[kenny]

Asking 'where do we draw the line?' is a sneaky way of implying it's not okay to be too different from you.

I think it's pretty obvious marrying your horse or lawn furniture is a line we don't need to specify.
And frankly implying so is insulting to all of us who have been denied equality, largely based on the teachings of religions.

 

[purplesparklies]

It is implying nothing, actually. I am wondering if it is ever appropriate. There are always whackos who don't think they are whackos. Who decides?


Your question-
"You don't know who's whacko, and who's for real?"

No. I don't. Therein lies the issue. Am I potentially sharing a restroom with an individual who truly feels trapped inside a body that feels wrong or am I sharing with someone who is posing as such? Who is real and who is whacko? Have I not read that one's rights end where it affects someone else's life? Someone is likely to feel uncomfortable whether restrooms are single gender or shared. Whose rights trump whose?

 

[kenny]

It is implying nothing, actually. I am wondering if it is ever appropriate. There are always whackos who don't think they are whackos. Who decides?


Your question-
"You don't know who's whacko, and who's for real?"

No. I don't. Therein lies the issue. Am I potentially sharing a restroom with an individual who truly feels trapped inside a body that feels wrong or am I sharing with someone who is posing as such? Who is real and who is whacko? Have I not read that one's rights end where it affects someone else's life? Someone is likely to feel uncomfortable whether restrooms are single gender or shared. Whose rights trump whose?

I've suggest third bathrooms for the long list of 'others'.
No sharing with so-judged 'whackos'.

Oh wait, I forgot. Y'alls don't judge.

 

[purplesparklies]

I have no problem with your suggestion.

You're right. I didn't judge. "Whacko" was the term you chose.