GOG says it''s an F. B&M says it''s a G - HELP!

[Brilyant]

My gf''s stone came in yesterday and it is GORGEOUS. F/VS2 according to Good Old Gold and the AGS certificate. I took the stone to a well respected local brick and mortar store (Joe Escobar in Campbell) and the woman I am working with on getting this diamond set looked at the diamond and did a color match on it using GIA color matching and said that it is a "soft F, definitely a G by GIA standards."

I still love the stone, but now in the back of my mind I feel like I got a bad deal.

What do I do? Should I talk to Jon @ GOG? I feel like someone burst a bubble

 

[swingirl]

I would trust an AGS certificate over anyone at a jewelry store. They aren''t in the business of doing certification and your AGS paperwork is worth a lot more than a jewel''s opinion. Was it the trained jeweler or salesperson who told you this? And don''t forget there is a range in each color grade.

Don''t let your bubble burst. If you got a stone from Jon it is probably fabulous. However, if you are concerned you could get it appraised. There are a few recommended appraisers in the Bay Area.

 

[Brilyant]

Thanks, swingirl.

Would you happen to know which appraisers are better than others?

The person who looked at the stone was a gemologist. They got the clarity spot on, but when they said it''s a G my heart sank a little. The price difference is one thing, but the thing I care about most is the F grade (just like in college, ha!)

 

[Kaleigh]

Take it to an independent appraiser. You can find one by clicking on Resources at the top of the page. AGS is a strict grading lab with a great reputation. People who work in jewelry stores, I take with a huge grain of salt, as they are out to try and sell you their stones. And often put down stones bought off of the internet.

 

[Brilyant]

Thanks. I hope, and think, that I wasn''t being "sold" on anything because the people I have been working with at this store have been great thus far. I may have to go back and get it and take it to an appraiser. My question then becomes, why is this an F according to GOG?

 

[strmrdr]

get it professionally appraised if your worried about it.
Its real common for a store too down another stores stone.
Master stones vary and the skill of the person doing the grading makes a difference.
Also if it is a borderline stone sending it too any lab twice might get a different grade.
Diamond grading is extremely subjective.

 

[Brilyant]

Date: 2/15/2008 1:06:14 AM
Author: strmrdr
get it professionally appraised if your worried about it.

Its real common for a store too down another stores stone.

Master stones vary and the skill of the person doing the grading makes a difference.

Also if it is a borderline stone sending it too any lab twice might get a different grade.

Diamond grading is extremely subjective.

Hmmm... thanks strmrdr. I don''t know if I want to get it appraised - how much does that cost? I don''t know if the master stones were CZ or not, either.

 

[KtIceRN]

Date: 2/15/2008 1:06:14 AM
Author: strmrdr
get it professionally appraised if your worried about it.
Its real common for a store too down another stores stone.
Master stones vary and the skill of the person doing the grading makes a difference.
Also if it is a borderline stone sending it too any lab twice might get a different grade.
Diamond grading is extremely subjective.

I totally agree with Storm. Get it appraised if you are questioning it. Alot of time stores will try to throw you off so they can get a sale. That''s why PSers recomend an independent appraiser, they work for you.
Few dollars for your piece of mind.......priceless.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 2/15/2008 1:51:53 AM
Author: Brilyant

Hmmm... thanks strmrdr. I don''t know if I want to get it appraised - how much does that cost? I don''t know if the master stones were CZ or not, either.

cz masters dont have a very good reputation so that could be the issue too.

appraisal prices vary all over the place depending on location.
Where are you located?

 

[Brilyant]

Date: 2/15/2008 2:04:59 AM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 2/15/2008 1:51:53 AM

Author: Brilyant


Hmmm... thanks strmrdr. I don''t know if I want to get it appraised - how much does that cost? I don''t know if the master stones were CZ or not, either.

cz masters dont have a very good reputation so that could be the issue too.


appraisal prices vary all over the place depending on location.

Where are you located?

I''m in Mt. View, CA (near San Jose).

I was also told that some H&A stones are branded as H&A and cost more, yet some can have H&A patterns and not carry the official "brand" of H&A and cost less. Is this true?

 

[Brilyant]

Date: 2/15/2008 1:55:40 AM
Author: KtIceRN

Date: 2/15/2008 1:06:14 AM

Author: strmrdr

get it professionally appraised if your worried about it.

Its real common for a store too down another stores stone.

Master stones vary and the skill of the person doing the grading makes a difference.

Also if it is a borderline stone sending it too any lab twice might get a different grade.

Diamond grading is extremely subjective.

I totally agree with Storm. Get it appraised if you are questioning it. Alot of time stores will try to throw you off so they can get a sale. That''s why PSers recomend an independent appraiser, they work for you.

Few dollars for your piece of mind.......priceless.

Hmm... I''ll look into it. I REALLY hope they weren''t knocking the stone down just to get a sale.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 2/15/2008 2:08:28 AM
Author: Brilyant
I''m in Mt. View, CA (near San Jose).

I was also told that some H&A stones are branded as H&A and cost more, yet some can have H&A patterns and not carry the official ''brand'' of H&A and cost less. Is this true?

yes and no, some brands carry a very strong premium like hearts on fire and 8* where other brands such as ACA''s, Infinity, and other top stones like the GOG h&a some of which are branded cuts don''t carry as much of a premium but there is some.
From the PS vendors that carry top end h&a diamonds of like quality the prices are competitive for the quality level and market which is generaly a lot less than the b&m market.

 

[Brilyant]

Date: 2/15/2008 2:19:25 AM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 2/15/2008 2:08:28 AM

Author: Brilyant

I''m in Mt. View, CA (near San Jose).


I was also told that some H&A stones are branded as H&A and cost more, yet some can have H&A patterns and not carry the official ''brand'' of H&A and cost less. Is this true?

yes and no, some brands carry a very strong premium like hearts on fire and 8* where other brands such as ACA''s, Infinity, and other top stones like the GOG h&a some of which are branded cuts don''t carry as much of a premium but there is some.

From the PS vendors that carry top end h&a diamonds of like quality the prices are competitive for the quality level and market which is generaly a lot less than the b&m market.

Ah, I see, thanks again. I just want to make sure that I paid F/VS2 money for an F stone and not a G stone. I guess an appraisal may take care of this.

 

[strmrdr]

Any of these appraisers nearby?
https://www.pricescope.com/appraisers_CA.aspx

 

[Brilyant]

Date: 2/15/2008 2:22:04 AM
Author: strmrdr
Any of these appraisers nearby?

https://www.pricescope.com/appraisers_CA.aspx

Yes indeed

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 2/15/2008 2:25:11 AM
Author: Brilyant

Date: 2/15/2008 2:22:04 AM
Author: strmrdr
Any of these appraisers nearby?

https://www.pricescope.com/appraisers_CA.aspx

Yes indeed

which one? ... im not familar with CA and too lazy too look at a map lol

 

[cara]

I don''t think the jeweler has told you anything inconsistent with GOG and the grading report. There is no "soft F" category on an AGS cert. Just F if they feel it is a hair over their line between F and G. Which might not be identically the same place as GIA, though they should be close.

Did you ask to speak to their master gemologist at Escobar? Eric somebody or other? I had some runaround from the people on the floor initially on an issue (due to misunderstanding rather than malice, I believe) but he was able to able to get to the bottom of it and gave me a discount without much hassle. Granted I did spend $$$ there.

Anywhoo. Good luck with the appraiser! (You like the stone other than this lady''s opinion, right?)

And another thing to consider is that, while of course you want to get an F if you pay for an F, in some ways the "value" is set by having the cert with that letter on it. If the stone was certed before GOG acquired it, then they also paid for an F stone. They may be unable to price it as a G without taking a loss, but hopefully they would make some accommodation if the appraiser comes back with an unfavorable answer.

 

[Lord Summerisle]

It might be helpful to have a read of the grading lab comparison that pricescope did a couple of years ago
[here]

several diamonds where sent to AGS, GIA and EGL for grading, and compared to the GIA origonal reports (GIA being used as the bench mark)
While not a big group - 17stones - it does give some indication...

on AGS and GIA - 16 diamonds can be compared (1 diamond was inadvertantly sent to GIA twice and recieved 1 grade difference in the clarity) AGS graded the same colour as GIA for 12 diamonds, gave a grade higher for 3 diamonds, and one grade lower for 1 diamond.

At the end of the day - grading is done by a human... and is subjective, but boardly speaking there is consistancy...
was your diamond graded by that person in the shop in correct lighting? was the person wearing a yellow shirt?

 

[Cleo]

I know loads of people have already replied and given you great advice.. but I just had to chime in too!

I may be naive, but if My AGS cert tells me that my diamond is an F.. then that''s good enough for me. Ditto for a GIA cert.

If it was EGL I would be prepared to accept the fact my diamond might well be graded lower in colour by AGS or GIA.

I certainly wouldn''t take the word of a B&M that my stone was a different colour than my cert was telling me.... particularly if I had bought it from such a reputable vendor.

Whilst there may/may not be an element of vested interest for the B&M in putting you iff the stone you have bought for their own potential gain, I would not be confident in their ability to grade colour over that of AGS.

You have already questioned whether or not the master set of stones they used was in fact diamond or CZ.

Was the grading done under standardised conditions and lighting, as it would be at AGS?

Probably not.

If you want to get it independently appraised for your own piece of mind, then why not. If it seems there''s a discrepancy between the colour grade & the cert I am sure that GOG will do everything they can to help you. You may like to call GOG anyway, just to let them know what happened - they may have some suggestions for you.

You asked why it was an F according to GOG. The answer is because it is an F according to AGS.

GOG will have paid the price for that stone based on the fact that AGS has certed it as an F colour, and they are prepared to put their trust and stake their reputation (and business) on GIA/AGS certs being accurate. Read here for more.

Yes, some Ideal cut stones can still exhibit H&A patterns, although not branded H&A. (My stone is Ideal, but not H&A and shows arrows as you can see in my avatar). For more info see here.

x x x

 

[Ellen]

Date: 2/15/2008 12:44:22 AM
Author: Brilyant
Thanks. I hope, and think, that I wasn''t being ''sold'' on anything because the people I have been working with at this store have been great thus far. I may have to go back and get it and take it to an appraiser. My question then becomes, why is this an F according to GOG?

It''s not an F according to GOG, it''s an F according to AGS, the grading lab. Just wanted to point that out, as GOG has nothing to do with whether this is an F or a G. Your gripe should be with the lab, if there is one.

You''ve also gotten lots of good commentary on grading. Good luck with the appraiser, and let us know how it turns out.

 

[denverappraiser]

Lots of good advice above. Keep your bubble intact.

It’s common for graders to disagree by a color grade. Even the same grader on different days or different graders at the same lab can disagree. In this sort of cases it’s always helpful to look at your standards.

AGSL says it’s an F
Joe says it’s a G (or a soft F or some such thing)
GIA hasn't seen it.

What’s your objective? If the target is to get a stone that a credible source calls an F then you’re already there. AGSL is tough to beat in the credibility department.

If the target is to get a stone that EVERY credible source calls an F than you need to send it to GIA. That’ll give you both GIA and AGS grading. GOG can help you with this and although it’s sometimes a bit time consuming it’s usually not all that expensive. Discuss it with them. If the target is to get a stone that’s guaranteed that GIA will call a G, get a stone that’s been graded by GIA.

If your target is to get the ‘value’ of an F, you’re already there. An AGSL report will cause the stone to cost like an F and will cause it’s replacement to cost like an F as well. AGSL documentation actually costs a premium over GIA in most markets.

Is it the most beautiful stone you can get for your money? For that you need to be looking at the stone, not at the report and it’s a matter of comparing it to other possible offers. Presumably you’ve seen the stone and you love it and you’ve already shopped it against other offerings before you got to this point so you may already be there as well. If you’re not sure, talk to GOG and possibly their competitors about this as well. As I recall they have a pretty agreeable return and exchange policy and they may have something else with GIA grading that may suit you better. So far I see nothing to suggest that there's anything wrong with this stone but you do need to end up with one that you can look at without feeling that you've been somehow mistreated, even if that feeling is misplaced.

During your appraisal session, did your appraiser discuss this whole issue with you? Did you ask? Did he offer to sell you an alternative stone?

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[elmo]

Since it sounds like your objective is getting a color grade to put your mind at ease and to potentially negotiate with the seller, I'd just send it to GIA in Carlsbad. It will cost less than a full appraisal ($100 for a 1 carat stone), and won't take much more than a week since you're in CA. It is harder for a seller to argue with the "World's Foremost Authority in Gemology".

Edit: looks like Neil and me were posting at the same time

.

 

[Beacon]

I have worked with Eric at Joe Escobar and he is good. I know you worked with someone else there, but you could ask Eric to have look. Escobar does not seem like the kind of B&M jeweler that disses another vendor''s stone hoping to get business. In fact, I have brought loose stones in there for service and had good experiences. Eric even thought the GIA was rather too tough with the clarity rating on one of my stones. So, I think they they were being objective about your stone.

We have seen examples of other people''s experience with AGS where AGS rated the color higher than some other appraisers. I am not saying AGS Is bad, they are a well respected lab, but there have been discrepencies before. I do like the idea of sending it to GIA but maybe you should ask GOG about this before you do so.

 

[oldminer]

Quoting Devernappraiser:

If the target is to get a stone that EVERY credible source calls an F than you need to send it to GIA.


I go a step further and suggest that if you want EVERY credible appraiser to call a diamond an "F" you need to purchase an "E" color. One grade different is basically an agreement that the grade is a correct one. Retailers who are asked to give an off hand opinion of a diamond from a competitor have figured out a myriad of ways to create doubt in the customer''s mind. Its all very subtle, but just a little doubt leads many folks to overreact. Don''t fall for it. An AGSL report is a safe bet so long as someone credible has made sure the diamond and the document match eachother.

 

[diagem]

Date: 2/15/2008 3:55:24 PM
Author: oldminer
Quoting Devernappraiser:

If the target is to get a stone that EVERY credible source calls an F than you need to send it to GIA.


I go a step further and suggest that if you want EVERY credible appraiser to call a diamond an ''F'' you need to purchase an ''E'' color. One grade different is basically an agreement that the grade is a correct one. Retailers who are asked to give an off hand opinion of a diamond from a competitor have figured out a myriad of ways to create doubt in the customer''s mind. Its all very subtle, but just a little doubt leads many folks to overreact. Don''t fall for it. An AGSL report is a safe bet so long as someone credible has made sure the diamond and the document match eachother.

 

[whatmeworry]

Date: 2/15/2008 3:59:12 PM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 2/15/2008 3:55:24 PM
Author: oldminer
Quoting Devernappraiser:

If the target is to get a stone that EVERY credible source calls an F than you need to send it to GIA.


I go a step further and suggest that if you want EVERY credible appraiser to call a diamond an ''F'' you need to purchase an ''E'' color. One grade different is basically an agreement that the grade is a correct one. Retailers who are asked to give an off hand opinion of a diamond from a competitor have figured out a myriad of ways to create doubt in the customer''s mind. Its all very subtle, but just a little doubt leads many folks to overreact. Don''t fall for it. An AGSL report is a safe bet so long as someone credible has made sure the diamond and the document match eachother.

What if you want to buy a D?

 

[Brilyant]

Thank you, everyone. I think I will go ahead and not have it appraised before it''s set.

One other issue: I was told that when the diamond would be set it might break (small, small chance) - but if it does, it is not covered. So am I screwed if the person setting the stone chips/breaks it? Nothing I can do?

Thanks all!!

 

[diagem]

Date: 2/15/2008 4:17:08 PM
Author: whatmeworry

Date: 2/15/2008 3:59:12 PM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 2/15/2008 3:55:24 PM
Author: oldminer
Quoting Devernappraiser:

If the target is to get a stone that EVERY credible source calls an F than you need to send it to GIA.


I go a step further and suggest that if you want EVERY credible appraiser to call a diamond an ''F'' you need to purchase an ''E'' color. One grade different is basically an agreement that the grade is a correct one. Retailers who are asked to give an off hand opinion of a diamond from a competitor have figured out a myriad of ways to create doubt in the customer''s mind. Its all very subtle, but just a little doubt leads many folks to overreact. Don''t fall for it. An AGSL report is a safe bet so long as someone credible has made sure the diamond and the document match eachother.

What if you want to buy a D?

Obviously you would have to go with a C..., or even a Golconda first water.

 

[diagem]

Date: 2/15/2008 4:43:20 PM
Author: Brilyant
Thank you, everyone. I think I will go ahead and not have it appraised before it''s set.

One other issue: I was told that when the diamond would be set it might break (small, small chance) - but if it does, it is not covered. So am I screwed if the person setting the stone chips/breaks it? Nothing I can do?

Thanks all!!

Brilyant..., make your purchase a positive experience..., sit down buckle up and enjoy the ride....
Mostly relax...

 

[Gypsy]

Date: 2/15/2008 2:24:56 PM
Author: Beacon
I have worked with Eric at Joe Escobar and he is good. I know you worked with someone else there, but you could ask Eric to have look. Escobar does not seem like the kind of B&M jeweler that disses another vendor's stone hoping to get business. In fact, I have brought loose stones in there for service and had good experiences. Eric even thought the GIA was rather too tough with the clarity rating on one of my stones. So, I think they they were being objective about your stone.

We have seen examples of other people's experience with AGS where AGS rated the color higher than some other appraisers. I am not saying AGS Is bad, they are a well respected lab, but there have been discrepencies before. I do like the idea of sending it to GIA but maybe you should ask GOG about this before you do so.

Ditto Eric. I referred two co-workers to JE. One actually went to Eric, the other missed that part of my rec and went with someone else and when I went with them to pick out diamonds, I wasn't as pleased with that person (don't recall the name, was female though) as I had been with Eric. They are a reputable place generally, from my experiences with them though. Never bought from them, but I take all my repairs and so forth for myself and my family (I'm the designated jewelry fixer) to them and they are always reasonablely priced, complimentary on the pieces I've taken in and have always done the job right the first time.