global warming is real

[partgypsy]

http://www.cnn.com/2007/TECH/science/02/02/climate.talks.ap/index.html

I have been reading the evidence about large scale climate change since my graduate school days, always wondering why this was not a bigger headline in the world''s news. Although the news may be scarey and depressing I feel we as a people are like an alcoholic in AA, you first have to admit there is a problem before you can fix it. And we have taken that first step, which means we can start solving it.

I''d love to hear other people''s thoughts on this.

 

[poptart]

Yes, global warming is very real and very scary. I think the worst part about it is that we are doing this to ourselves. I am so glad this is FINALLY starting to make headline news, although I wonder if it is possibly too late. The world has a way of balancing itself out, and since WE are the ones causing all the problems, I really do worry that when the really wonky weather starts (and it will if we don''t change), we will be taken out by the massive floods, hurricanes, tornados, etc. It''s just disgusting to me watching people litter and use the earth without any respect of the fact that this is the only planet we have.

*M*

 

[snogirl17]

It is so sad to think that we have this type of information for over 30 years and we did nothing about it. I was listening to the radio and hearing president bush discuss it. i founded it interesting he still wont call it global warming, he calls it global climate change( at least i have never heard him), almost to make it sound as if it were normal. I wish we all were more proactive instead of reactive.


Oh come on poptart we have plenty of plants to over take, such as mars and the moon.. being very sarcastic

.
that also sickenss me to think we have the right to consume all the resources we need here on mother earth and then try to go live on some other planet and destroy that as well. I find it ironic that in those alien movies they talk about them moving from planet to planet consuming all resources and then moving on to the next... sound familiar..

Ok I could go on and on about this topic, it is one that fuels me to no end. I will go back to work and ponder on this some more

 

[partgypsy]

Wow, response has been...underwhelming. I guess people find this subject too uncomfortable/depressing to discuss, or just don''t care? Not sure.

Rather than feeling powerless about it, i''m going to try to conserve gas consumption where I can, and most importantly make global warming one of the main issues that decides where my vote goes next election.

 

[movie zombie]

depressing.

46 nations are forming a[nother] group to deal with global warming and once again our government is not participating.

i can yell, i can scream, i can contact elected officials till hell freezes over......but the best i can do is try and leave as little a footprint on this world as possible by making responsible decisons ranging from if to have children to what car to drive to go organic and buy local, etc.

yes, depressing that this country continues in denial and its not just the administration which is ruling [yes, ruling] this country.

movie zombie

 

[poptart]

Date: 2/5/2007 10:44:01 PM
Author: movie zombie
depressing.


46 nations are forming a[nother] group to deal with global warming and once again our government is not participating.


i can yell, i can scream, i can contact elected officials till hell freezes over......but the best i can do is try and leave as little a footprint on this world as possible by making responsible decisons ranging from if to have children to what car to drive to go organic and buy local, etc.


yes, depressing that this country continues in denial and its not just the administration which is ruling [yes, ruling] this country.


movie zombie

Yes. Very depressing. It actually does make me want to scream. But, luckily, as you said there are things we can do to help our environment. Here are some sites that will help you with energy conservation as well as just finding out some stuff about your environment: earthshare.org and here is just a plethora of different websites combined into one... http://www.apec-vc.or.jp/ewldweb/usaweb.htm. I hope that posts ok. I seem to have a problem posting links that I''m not supposed to. But I read the site this time so it should be fine. If not, sorry admin!

*M*

 

[hlmr]

Date: 2/5/2007 6:06:50 PM
Author: part gypsy
Wow, response has been...underwhelming. I guess people find this subject too uncomfortable/depressing to discuss, or just don't care? Not sure.

Rather than feeling powerless about it, i'm going to try to conserve gas consumption where I can, and most importantly make global warming one of the main issues that decides where my vote goes next election.

Hi part gypsy:

There actually was a discussion about this about six months ago and it got a bit heated, so perhaps that might be part of the lack of response as well.

I think people have been believing/hoping that it's not real for so long that it's a bit shocking to realize how much damage we have done in such a short period of time.

Schools are starting to teach the children about global warming which is promising. My 12 year old just watched An Inconvenient Truth in his classroom a few weeks ago. The class was then tested on their comprehension of the information. It is one step in the right direction. Let's hope we can make many more and quickly.

 

[biblobaggins23]

i just read that 2 climitologists (spelling)came out with books saying global warming is not human induced, but a natural earth warming process. either way, scientists are divided on the issue.

in some ways, they could be right. the earth has warmed and froze for billions of years!

who knows.

 

[hlmr]

Date: 2/5/2007 11:40:27 PM
Author: biblobaggins23
i just read that 2 climitologists (spelling)came out with books saying global warming is not human induced, but a natural earth warming process. either way, scientists are divided on the issue.

in some ways, they could be right. the earth has warmed and froze for billions of years!

who knows.

Well, the scientists that have been studying global warming know, and they are trying to warn us.

Yes, the earth''s temperature has gone up and down since the beginning of time, but now it is warming up far beyond what it has in the past and will continue at an astronomical rate in the future without intervention.

The earth''s ice is melting at an unprecedented pace, which means higher ocean levels and warmer water. The suns rays can''t bounce off of the water (like they do ice - which is part of the reason that it''s so bad our ice is melting) and then the heat (from the sun''s rays) is getting stuck in our atmosphere because the carbon emissions are blocking it''s path, therefore warming us up like never before.

 

[poptart]

Date: 2/6/2007 12:06:30 AM
Author: hlmr

Date: 2/5/2007 11:40:27 PM

Author: biblobaggins23

i just read that 2 climitologists (spelling)came out with books saying global warming is not human induced, but a natural earth warming process. either way, scientists are divided on the issue.


in some ways, they could be right. the earth has warmed and froze for billions of years!


who knows.

Well, the scientists that have been studying global warming know, and they are trying to warn us.


Yes, the earth''s temperature has gone up and down since the beginning of time, but now it is warming up far beyond what it has in the past and will continue at an astronomical rate in the future without intervention.


The earth''s ice is melting at an unprecedented pace, which means higher ocean levels and warmer water. The suns rays can''t bounce off of the water (like they do ice - which is part of the reason that it''s so bad our ice is melting) and then the heat (from the sun''s rays) is getting stuck in our atmosphere because the carbon emissions are blocking it''s path, therefore warming us up like never before.

The Earth, like life, does work on a cycle; not to mention global warming is only a theory. As everything in science always is. But a theory is about as close to a fact as you can get in the scientific field. But even if the Earth is currently on a "warm cycle" that gives us no excuse to treat our planet badly and harvest it for all it''s worth. Even if we aren''t having an effect now, although I believe we are, it is certain we will in the future. Our world is not an expendable resource and it can''t supply as quickly as we demand. I would much rather global warming got a lot of concern now and be safe rather than sorry. And we WILL be sorry when all our coasts start sinking into the ocean...

*M*

 

[movie zombie]

i might add that while Earth does have a natural cycle of warming and cooling, species on the planet have paid a price during those fluctuations. at no time has the human species been so high and dense during either of the extremes as that population is now. we can debate the cause as human or not till the birds don''t come home....the fact is that the earth is warming....and warming at a rate not seen before that may or may not be linked to human populations not seen before.

the problem is that the time for debate ended years ago and we''re way behind in what we need to do to insure the species survives. and no having more babies is not the answer. regardless of the cause, with warming will come changes in climate which will effect us not only regarding the air we breathe but the food we are able to produce, the potable water available, etc. we''re already seeing the effects but i guess until US citizens start dying in their homes and on the streets we''ll continue to deny there is a problem.

movie zombie

 

[fire&ice]

Anyone read Michael Crichton "State of Fear"?

 

[AGBF]

Date: 2/5/2007 11:02:18 PM
Author: hlmr
My 12 year old just watched An Inconvenient Truth in his classroom a few weeks ago. The class was then tested on their comprehension of the information. It is one step in the right direction. Let's hope we can make many more and quickly.

It was shown at the school where I was teaching, too. I found it very convincing and its dissemination is a great step towards educating the American public, whom the present government has wanted to keep ignorant.

Deborah

 

[FireGoddess]

Date: 2/5/2007 6:06:50 PM
Author: part gypsy
Wow, response has been...underwhelming. I guess people find this subject too uncomfortable/depressing to discuss, or just don''t care? Not sure.

Rather than feeling powerless about it, i''m going to try to conserve gas consumption where I can, and most importantly make global warming one of the main issues that decides where my vote goes next election.

Yes, we have talked about this before! Here is the thread I started after watching "An Inconvenient Truth" (and it did get heated as Hlmr wrote!):
https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/an-inconvenient-truth.47761/

Here is one on EV cars written after seeing "Who Killed the Electric Car?" (and I highly recommend watching the documentary!):
https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/anyone-ever-heard-of-the-ev-cars.55991/

It is very upsetting that people continue to deny that (a) global warming exists and (b) humans have everything to do with it. It''s definitely an issue that concerns me and has influence on the way I tread across this planet.

 

[fire&ice]

Well, as I stated in that other thread, there exists quite a few scientists that negate it''s existence. The reason I asked if anyone read "State of Fear" is because that is what the entire book is dedicated to with some pretty interesting data to back it up. Sometimes man creates "crisis/platforms, etc" for other than the good of mankind. One of the points of the book is that data was reported only from the grant givers bent. That does happen all the time in real life. If you are given a grant for study, you are VERY pushed to report what the grantor wants. And certain "push buttons" are better fund raisers for any organization.

Again, I believe EVERYONE has an obligation as a guest of the planet to treat it with respect.

 

[partgypsy]

Fire&ice, no I haven''t read "State of Fear". Apparently Bush is a real fan of it, and even had Michael Crichton over at the White house. What he needs to be reminded however that it is a work of fiction.

There are certainly special interests on the issue of global warming, but they are on the side of denying either that it is occuring or that is influenced by humans. Someone I currently work with used to work for the EPA (but quit out of disgust at years of work being swept under the carpet to appease big business) told me that certain interests pay $10,000 for every article that comes out against global warming. I can''t confirm that is true, but apparently she knows people who worked on the global warming report. There has also been multiple complaints of higher up officials in this administration editing or rewriting parts of scientists'' reports when they implicate global warming. Scientists being warned not to speak to the press about this issue. Despite all this pressure experts in this field overwhelmingly agree that there is a problem with human emissions forcing global warming.

However the tide is changing. Recently 10 large American corporations have grouped together to urge that this administration do something to set an agenda to address this problem. Because to tell you the truth once you understand the situation, you realize if something is not done, its going to affect everyone''s bottom line.

 

[fire&ice]

Date: 2/6/2007 6:00:54 PM
Author: part gypsy
Fire&ice, no I haven''t read ''State of Fear''. Apparently Bush is a real fan of it, and even had Michael Crichton over at the White house. What he needs to be reminded however that it is a work of fiction.

There are certainly special interests on the issue of global warming, but they are on the side of denying either that it is occuring or that is influenced by humans. Someone I currently work with used to work for the EPA (but quit out of disgust at years of work being swept under the carpet to appease big business) told me that certain interests pay $10,000 for every article that comes out against global warming. I can''t confirm that is true, but apparently she knows people who worked on the global warming report. There has also been multiple complaints of higher up officials in this administration editing or rewriting parts of scientists'' reports when they implicate global warming. Scientists being warned not to speak to the press about this issue. Despite all this pressure experts in this field overwhelmingly agree that there is a problem with human emissions forcing global warming.

However the tide is changing. Recently 10 large American corporations have grouped together to urge that this administration do something to set an agenda to address this problem. Because to tell you the truth once you understand the situation, you realize if something is not done, its going to affect everyone''s bottom line.

My problem is you can''t take one side of the issue and ascribe ''foul''. For each paper/finding/report/study that is paid $10,000 for a non global warming issue report another is paid $10,000 for issuing a global warming report. That''s the nature of grants & the nature of fund raising in general. The book, whose topic was global warming, pointed that out quite nicely. And, something I *do* see in my little microcosim of the nature of the beasts. Mine have little at stake and is still riddled with leanings & agendas. No one is going to give you money unless you beat to their drum.

I really don''t have a serious platform one way or the other on the issue. I see both sides. I see no harm in protecting our planet.

 

[LAJennifer]

Date: 2/6/2007 4:38:43 PM
Author: fire&ice
Well, as I stated in that other thread, there exists quite a few scientists that negate it''s existence. The reason I asked if anyone read ''State of Fear'' is because that is what the entire book is dedicated to with some pretty interesting data to back it up. Sometimes man creates ''crisis/platforms, etc'' for other than the good of mankind. One of the points of the book is that data was reported only from the grant givers bent. That does happen all the time in real life. If you are given a grant for study, you are VERY pushed to report what the grantor wants. And certain ''push buttons'' are better fund raisers for any organization.

Again, I believe EVERYONE has an obligation as a guest of the planet to treat it with respect.

Agreed. And I do. I also, however, refuse to be spoonfed my science by politicians. I like to read/hear both sides of the arguments - google Richard Lindzen for an opposing view.

 

[fire&ice]

Date: 2/6/2007 6:15:13 PM
Author: LAJennifer

Date: 2/6/2007 4:38:43 PM
Author: fire&ice
Well, as I stated in that other thread, there exists quite a few scientists that negate it''s existence. The reason I asked if anyone read ''State of Fear'' is because that is what the entire book is dedicated to with some pretty interesting data to back it up. Sometimes man creates ''crisis/platforms, etc'' for other than the good of mankind. One of the points of the book is that data was reported only from the grant givers bent. That does happen all the time in real life. If you are given a grant for study, you are VERY pushed to report what the grantor wants. And certain ''push buttons'' are better fund raisers for any organization.

Again, I believe EVERYONE has an obligation as a guest of the planet to treat it with respect.

Agreed. And I do. I also, however, refuse to be spoonfed my science by politicians. I like to read/hear both sides of the arguments - google Richard Lindzen for an opposing view.

Of course. But, my point in the end is that the science *does* have a political agenda. Be it whatever one defines as "political". I will google your R.Lindzen tomorrow. Tonight, for most Americans - American Idol comes first.

 

[partgypsy]

here is a detailed critique of Richard Lindzen''s arguments

http://www.realclimate.org/index.php?p=222

And regarding the politically motivated, or lucrative motivation of scientists; article from the christian science monitor:

http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0207/p03s02-sten.html


"Pulling off a major, rigorously reviewed summary of climate science is a Herculean task.

While some critics hold that the report and its summary are the work of faceless bureaucrats, the main science report – more than 1,600 pages in its draft form – was compiled by 150 scientists as main authors, another 400 scientists as contributing authors, a team of review editors, and some 600 reviewers. The document went through two rounds of reviews. And unlike past efforts, review editors required chapter authors to respond to each responsible review comment.

Although governments review, suggest changes, and decide whether to accept the completed 21-page summary for policymakers, the scientists assembled in Paris last week had the final say over the report''s wording, notes Keith Dixon, a researcher at the GFDL and another IPCC participant. If countries fail to accept the final product by consensus, the summary gets published anyway. At worst, the IPCC changes the report''s billing, dropping the "for policymakers" from the title.

The process is a heavy draw on time and energy within the climate-science community. For example, scientists at GFDL devoted half of their supercomputer''s time for a year running models for the latest report. It''s a worthwhile task, Dr. Dixon says. Researchers who take part in the IPCC process do so as volunteers. But it comes at a cost. "The typical metrics that a lot of research scientists use to gauge their careers take a hit by doing this," he says. Individual research projects get postponed and journal articles don''t get published."

 

[strmrdr]

hmmm well using the same just science the global warmers use ya can say the sun is hotter than it has been in millions of years...
And its a fact that its gotten around 3% hotter in the last 20 years.
Yet the earths temps have risen less than 1 degree,,, yep the earth is having trouble dealing with it... not...

 

[ForteKitty]

Not enough people care. This planet needs to just blow up and start over.

(I'm speaking out of frustration. I work in Environmental Program Development and see way too much crap.)

 

[poptart]

Date: 2/6/2007 9:39:38 PM
Author: ForteKitty
Not enough people care. This planet needs to just blow up and start over.


(I''m speaking out of frustration. I work in Environmental Program Development and see way too much crap.)

You sound just like me, lol. Not enough people care about the earth warming, or the environment in general. I mean, we only LIVE here, big deal. The Earth is expendable, right? People seem to think so, as that is the way we treat it. Global warming is an important issue to me, but I think even more important is having appreciation for the world around you. I slowly see this coming back here and there, but it may be too little too late. Personally I think we''ve dug ourselves pretty deep into this hole.

*M*

 

[movie zombie]

the constant debate back and forth is what gets me: its like nero fiddling while rome burned.

can it possibly hurt to tread lightly and not use up all the resources so there is something left down the road for future generations?

great picture, storm!

movie zombie

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 2/7/2007 1:07:57 AM
Author: movie zombie
the constant debate back and forth is what gets me: its like nero fiddling while rome burned.

can it possibly hurt to tread lightly and not use up all the resources so there is something left down the road for future generations?

great picture, storm!

movie zombie

ssssssssshhhhhhhhh but technology is moving forward on that front.
Going any faster with the tech we have today is going to destroy what little economy we have left which is not fine with me.
Right now the environmental costs of reasonable alternatives are higher than current technologies.
If you want to speed up the changes give tax breaks for r&d.
Right now wallstreet punishes r&d spending which is why it is down everyone wants to make a million today and the heck with the long term.
That is the 3 single biggest things holding any kind of change back is the stock market and the banks and the government.

At the same time the wackos want us to give up stuff while making all 3 of those things worse... well they can go swim in shark infested waters for all I care.
It ain't happening and it will lead to CW2 if its tried.

 

[colormyworld]

The one thing that can not be denied is the FACT that the more green house gases (GHG) in the atmosphere, the more heat it will retain.


Doug

 

[strmrdr]

BTW how many people actually get out and do something other than talk bout it.
Post a ME! and give yourself a pat on the back if you have worked on clean-up crews, reforestation crews, erosion prevention projects, recycle drives, or other physical tasks to help the environment?

ME! ouch my arm don''t bend that far!

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 2/7/2007 2:09:47 AM
Author: colormyworld
The one thing that can not be denied is the FACT that the more green house gases (GHG) in the atmosphere, the more heat it will retain.


Doug

actually more volcanic eruptions which could bring on another ice age spew millions and billions of tons of green house gases into the air and would bring cooling.
The level of gases by themselves don't mean much.

Water pollution is a much more serious problem that's being ignored and covered up by adding more and more chemicals to the water supply and selling bottled water.

 

[colormyworld]

Storm I think you are not wanting to see the truth.

I agree with you about the water pollution. In so far as it is a problem also. The point being, We are destroying our enviroment faster than it can repair itself. What we are doing today will have effects far into the future. Do any of us have any clue when we will have gone too far. Including natural events that we can not predict?? Do we know what happens if the permafrost in the artic melts and releases all the methane that is in the ground there?

Doug

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 2/7/2007 2:35:21 AM
Author: colormyworld
Storm I think you are not wanting to see the truth.

I agree with you about the water pollution. In so far as it is a problem also. The point being, We are destroying our enviroment faster than it can repair itself. What we are doing today will have effects far into the future. Do any of us have any clue when we will have gone too far. Including natural events that we can not predict??


Doug

no I just don't go to extremes about it and maybe don't agree with your truth....
There are things that need to be done but acting fast and on bad information is worse than doing nothing.
Do humans contribute to global warming.. yes to a small degree but I think in the long run nature itself does far more.
The weird winter we are having right now is almost certainly caused by increased sun intensity of short duration.
But the overall trend has been more heat from the sun over an extended period of time.