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GIA vs Appraisal vs Seller

Panhandler80

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jun 27, 2011
Messages
19
Understandably I've caught a lot of heat on the post I started earlier last week.

I have drafted a plan for getting my money back.

On to a seperate issue; I started looking at GIAs exclusively because they are the authority and I figured a diamond would be pretty close to what cert says.

The diamond in question from other post... cert says:

Ex Cut
Ex Sym
VG Polisy
F color
SI2
F Color

Appraiser says same thing except

I1
I color

Wow. Big swing.

I had never seen an inclusion from the top. Yesterday when I posted that the I1 did not suprise me, that was because I was seeing them through the side.

Showed her last night and from the top she found the inclusion in short order. I told her she was crazy, but I saw it this morning and after having seen it, my eye can pick it out pretty easily. I have never viewed this stone under magnification.

So, we know for a FACT, that GIA was off one on the clarity, and a swing from F to I in color is huge. I understand that the local appraiser could easily just be showing how tough he is and how HE knows what a diamond really is and I should deal with HIM and his B&M store, etc. I also understand that it's impossible to truly grade color on a mounted stone. Still F to I is huge.

Does not change the fact that GIA completely missed the mark on clarity, and it makes me wonder about color.

All of that being said, with the exception of the inclusion that I can now see with naked eye (granted that's a big deal), I like the diamond. It is VERY BRILLIANT in all light conditions and to me it looks as white as it can be.

Seller did say that I might be able to "think you see something from the top, but then you never see it again and can't re-find it." So I knew there was a chance of it being there. That's beside the point though, now. HOWEVER, to me it looks like an F. So if it weren't for the inclusion I'd be happy with the diamond because it looks good to ME.

Which brings me back to my POINT... I now have what's definitely an I1 stone, who knows what color and a whole lot less confidence in GIA. However, it's a color that is good to me and it is a color that is confirmed on GIA's website, and that cert number was taken off the stone by my local guy. So GIA says it's an F, but they also said it's an SI2, which clearly it is NOT. Looks like an F to me and I like the color, but they missed the clarity.

QUESTION:

1. Why is nobody on here jumping GIAs butt for missing the clarity grade.

2. If I can't trust GIA, then why in the HECK am I paying more for it. Why shouldn't I get my money back and take it to a Motek type place and just find a diamond that sparkles and looks awesome with no visible inclusions and just save myself that money?
 

slg47

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Apr 4, 2010
Messages
9,667
Panhandler80 said:
Understandably I've caught a lot of heat on the post I started earlier last week.

I have drafted a plan for getting my money back.

On to a seperate issue; I started looking at GIAs exclusively because they are the authority and I figured a diamond would be pretty close to what cert says.

The diamond in question from other post... cert says:

Ex Cut
Ex Sym
VG Polisy
F color
SI2
F Color

Appraiser says same thing except

I1
I color

Did the appraiser suggest sending back to GIA for grading? GIA is the standard. Is the appraiser independent? It is possible he is trying to sell you one of his stones.

Wow. Big swing.

I had never seen an inclusion from the top. Yesterday when I posted that the I1 did not suprise me, that was because I was seeing them through the side.

Showed her last night and from the top she found the inclusion in short order. I told her she was crazy, but I saw it this morning and after having seen it, my eye can pick it out pretty easily. I have never viewed this stone under magnification.

So, we know for a FACT, that GIA was off one on the clarity, and a swing from F to I in color is huge. I understand that the local appraiser could easily just be showing how tough he is and how HE knows what a diamond really is and I should deal with HIM and his B&M store, etc. I also understand that it's impossible to truly grade color on a mounted stone. Still F to I is huge.

we do NOT know that GIA was off on clarity. SI2s can have visible inclusions and often do.


Does not change the fact that GIA completely missed the mark on clarity, and it makes me wonder about color.

All of that being said, with the exception of the inclusion that I can now see with naked eye (granted that's a big deal), I like the diamond. It is VERY BRILLIANT in all light conditions and to me it looks as white as it can be.

Seller did say that I might be able to "think you see something from the top, but then you never see it again and can't re-find it." So I knew there was a chance of it being there. That's beside the point though, now. HOWEVER, to me it looks like an F. So if it weren't for the inclusion I'd be happy with the diamond because it looks good to ME.

Which brings me back to my POINT... I now have what's definitely an I1 stone, who knows what color and a whole lot less confidence in GIA. However, it's a color that is good to me and it is a color that is confirmed on GIA's website, and that cert number was taken off the stone by my local guy. So GIA says it's an F, but they also said it's an SI2, which clearly it is NOT. Looks like an F to me and I like the color, but they missed the clarity.

QUESTION:

1. Why is nobody on here jumping GIAs butt for missing the clarity grade.

2. If I can't trust GIA, then why in the HECK am I paying more for it. Why shouldn't I get my money back and take it to a Motek type place and just find a diamond that sparkles and looks awesome with no visible inclusions and just save myself that money?
 

Panhandler80

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jun 27, 2011
Messages
19
Is the appraiser independent? For the $92 he charged me for a half day turn around he should be. He also owns a jewelry store, so I understand that there's a propensity there to slam the stone a little bit.

Neither the seller, nor the appraiser, recommended sending it back to GIA. I have my own theories as to why, but here was the response from both:

Appraiser: Problem is, the diamond is inscribed, and even if we polished that off, they can ID some diamonds as theirs if they have light imaging fingerprint (or something along those lines... I don't remember what he called it). That being said, they'll never admit that they over evaulated it this badly. It would cost them credibility to have missed clairty by 1 and color by 3. They would just confirm that it's F and SI2 and it would be a waste of your time.

Very possible he's just trying to sell me a ring.

Seller - In all my years (it's a pretty big number) of cutting, selling, setting diamdonds, I've probably sent 30 back to GIA and of those 30, they have probably changed altered the grading on 4 or 5 of them. It's not very likely that this happens. Appraiser doesn't want you to send it in because he's jerking your chain on the I color. There is NO WAY that is an I diamond... that's just crazy.

You said...
"we do NOT know that GIA was off on clarity. SI2s can have visible inclusions and often do."

This is news to me. I thought SI-anything fell under the no visibile inclusion field of clarity. I guess this isnt' necesarily bad news, as it would restore some of my confidence in GIA. The ifom-the-top inclusion is very small and nobody would have ever seen it but us.
 

slg47

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Apr 4, 2010
Messages
9,667
Panhandler80|1309963284|2962750 said:
Is the appraiser independent? For the $92 he charged me for a half day turn around he should be. He also owns a jewelry store, so I understand that there's a propensity there to slam the stone a little bit.

If he owns a jewelry store he is NOT an independent appraiser.

Neither the seller, nor the appraiser, recommended sending it back to GIA. I have my own theories as to why, but here was the response from both:

Appraiser: Problem is, the diamond is inscribed, and even if we polished that off, they can ID some diamonds as theirs if they have light imaging fingerprint (or something along those lines... I don't remember what he called it). That being said, they'll never admit that they over evaulated it this badly. It would cost them credibility to have missed clairty by 1 and color by 3. They would just confirm that it's F and SI2 and it would be a waste of your time.

Very possible he's just trying to sell me a ring.

Seller - In all my years (it's a pretty big number) of cutting, selling, setting diamdonds, I've probably sent 30 back to GIA and of those 30, they have probably changed altered the grading on 4 or 5 of them. It's not very likely that this happens. Appraiser doesn't want you to send it in because he's jerking your chain on the I color. There is NO WAY that is an I diamond... that's just crazy.

You said...
"we do NOT know that GIA was off on clarity. SI2s can have visible inclusions and often do."

This is news to me. I thought SI-anything fell under the no visibile inclusion field of clarity. I guess this isnt' necesarily bad news, as it would restore some of my confidence in GIA. The ifom-the-top inclusion is very small and nobody would have ever seen it but us.

no. SI1s and SI2s can have visible inclusions. you must evaluate these on a stone by stone basis. I would ABSOLUTELY trust GIA in this situation.
 

antelope1

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Jul 5, 2010
Messages
648
OP, I think you're confusing SI and VS.

If you can see an inclusion with the naked eye in a VS1 or 2 diamond, you are blessed with extraordinary eye sight.

In general, SI1 = visible inclusions to the naked eye (although some of these can pass as "eye clean"), so SI2 = even worse! If you read the tutorial under Knowledge, you'll see that SI2 is a fungible range. The difference between SI2 and and I1 is a matter of judgement.

On the color: You haven't mentioned florescence at all. This affects color (but GIA corrects for it when they do the color grading). Does your appraiser have a CZ master set or a diamond master set? Did he compare the diamond to the master set using only over head florescent light, shutting off all other light sources?

Which brings me to your appraiser: To be honest, $92 is relatively inexpensive as appraisals go. Is your appraiser certified? If so, by whom? And if he owns a store, he is absolutely not "independent" because he has a vested interest in steering you away from your vendor and toward his store! When I asked my independent appraiser where I should go to buy X, he said that he couldn't/wouldn't tell me.

Just food for thought.
 

gamer2be08

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jul 6, 2011
Messages
19
Dont be too upset, my EGL diamond was off a total of 8 grades in the color/clarity categories. Bought a G diamond, got an L diamond. He put it next to an L and a k and it looked more like the L. Bought an VS1 diamond, got a IS1 diamond. Bought an ex polish and ex symmetry diamond, was told it was very good polish. I would have been glad had mine been a couple grades off. Not 8 though.
 

gamer2be08

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jul 6, 2011
Messages
19
antelope1|1309963947|2962763 said:
OP, I think you're confusing SI and VS.

If you can see an inclusion with the naked eye in a VS1 or 2 diamond, you are blessed with extraordinary eye sight.

In general, SI1 = visible inclusions to the naked eye (although some of these can pass as "eye clean"), so SI2 = even worse! If you read the tutorial under Knowledge, you'll see that SI2 is a fungible range. The difference between SI2 and and I1 is a matter of judgement.

On the color: You haven't mentioned florescence at all. This affects color (but GIA corrects for it when they do the color grading). Does your appraiser have a CZ master set or a diamond master set? Did he compare the diamond to the master set using only over head florescent light, shutting off all other light sources?

Which brings me to your appraiser: To be honest, $92 is relatively inexpensive as appraisals go. Is your appraiser certified? If so, by whom? And if he owns a store, he is absolutely not "independent" because he has a vested interest in steering you away from your vendor and toward his store! When I asked my independent appraiser where I should go to buy X, he said that he couldn't/wouldn't tell me.

Just food for thought.

SI1 is SUPPOSED to be eye clean. Meaning your lucky if your can spot the inclusion with a naked eye, especially an untrained naked eye. SI2 is where can probably see a tiny inclusion, but a lot of times you still may not.

I paid 95$ for my appraisal, so that is about right.
 

Panhandler80

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jun 27, 2011
Messages
19
He has 4 GIA certifications on the wall and his wife has two.

Appriaser got GIA inscribed number off diamond, number confirmed:

Cut: EX
Symetry: EX
Pol: VG
F color
SI2
6.79 x 6.82 x 4.21 (61.9% depth)
1.19 Carat
58 table
41.2 pavillion
35 crown
3.5 faceted girdle
med blue fluorescence

The appraiser did break out the glass master set, but to me the F looked more like my stone than the I did.
 

crbl999

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Jan 21, 2010
Messages
447
Panhandler80|1309964599|2962773 said:
He has 4 GIA certifications on the wall and his wife has two.

Appriaser got GIA inscribed number off diamond, number confirmed:

Cut: EX
Symetry: EX
Pol: VG
F color
SI2
6.79 x 6.82 x 4.21 (61.9% depth)
1.19 Carat
58 table
41.2 pavillion
35 crown
3.5 faceted girdle
med blue fluorescence

The appraiser did break out the glass master set, but to me the F looked more like my stone than the I did.
Based on those numbers I would pass on this stone. I would highly recommend finding a truly independent appraiser. If they sell diamonds or own a B&M store they are not independent.

ETA: You can enter the crown angle, pavilion angle, depth, and table into the HCA https://www.pricescope.com/tools/hca. If it scores below 2, it is worth further invesigation (i.e. idealscope image and indepedent appraisal).
 

antelope1

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Jul 5, 2010
Messages
648
Panhandler80|1309964599|2962773 said:
The appraiser did break out the glass master set, but to me the F looked more like my stone than the I did.
"Glass"?? Errr...I've only heard of CZ and natural diamond master sets. But anyways...

Also, you can't compare an EGL cert (notoriously variable) to those of a GIA cert (much more reliable).
 

denverappraiser

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Jul 21, 2004
Messages
8,825
Panhandler80|1309962176|2962734 said:
1. Why is nobody on here jumping GIAs butt for missing the clarity grade?
1) Si2 and I1 are bordering grades on the GIA scale and each grade represents a range of possible stones. It’s not a scam, or even unusual, for 2 or more graders to fall on opposing sides of this sort of thing.
2) ‘Eye clean’ is NOT one of the grading standards for GIA grading. It is flatly false to say that SI2 means that there is nothing visible face up.
3) F -> I is a much more significant issue. That's 3 grades. I know nothing about the grading methodology being used by your appraiser but it’s entirely reasonable to ask them this question. Did they inspect the stone unmounted? Did they use standardized lighting and color masters? (Glass masters? really?) What do they consider to be their margin for error? Presumably they knew that GIA assigned a different grade. Are they confident in their results in the face of this discrepancy?

I would not say from your facts that GIA missed on either the clarity or color grades. It’s certainly possible, everybody makes mistakes, but you haven’t provided much in the way of pursuasive evidence. If you trust your appraiser, and since you chose and hired them I would recommend you do, send it back and get a different stone. GIA is the veritable definition of the grades. That is to say, both the seller and the appraiser are estimating what GIA would call it if the stone were submitted and GIA is reporting what they DID call it when it WAS submitted. It’s not entirely incompatible that these can be different and your statement from the appraiser that GIA might cheat and use prior records as part of the next grading procedure is absolutely valid. I agree with him/her that it would be a waste of time and money to send it back to the lab hoping for a lower grade.

The same thing applies to the color. It’s an F by definition because GIA called it an F. How it compares to other F’s is the question the appraiser is answering and he/she is saying that it compares more closely to I’s. If you believe them, and I would, send it back. What’s the problem? If you DON’T believe them, ignore their report entirely and choose someone else to believe. GIA is pretty well regarded and it sure sounds like they did the examination under far better conditions but this does NOT make them smarter or better than your appraiser any more than the conflict of interest makes your appraiser wrong. You’ve got 2 conflicting expert opinions and rather than trying to pick an average, pick one to believe and ignore the other. You’ve apparently done this and you picked the appraiser. Fine. Again, what’s the problem?

Panhandler80|1309962176|2962734 said:
2. If I can't trust GIA, then why in the HECK am I paying more for it. Why shouldn't I get my money back and take it to a Motek type place and just find a diamond that sparkles and looks awesome with no visible inclusions and just save myself that money?
Diamonds are priced based on the paperwork. That’s just a fact. A GIA/F/SI2/of a particular fluro and cut grade will go for a very similar price from the same sort of dealer. This will be the case whether you like it or not. If you would like to buy based on some other criteria, like your idea of visible sparkle or visibility of inclusions to you, feel free. That’s what the dealer is there for. It’s a hotly competitive business out there. Finding a dealer who can and will work with you in the way that you are comfortable is an important part of the process. At the same time, don’t expect the price to change because your criteria are different from GIA’s. THEIR evaluation is what set the price. Assuming price is of interest to you, it’s important to know what that evaluation is even if you are making a final selection based on other things. If price ISN’T of primary interest to you, by all means pick a dealer you like, tell them what you want, rely on their advice, and be happy with the results. This procedure may indeed be better at getting what you want, and it may save you money in that you may be happy with a ‘lower’ graded stone, but it will NOT save you money in the way it’s being discussed here.

Panhandler80|1309962176|2962734 said:
2. If I can't trust GIA, then why in the HECK am I paying more for it?
If you don’t feel you can trust GIA, don’t. Apparently you trust your appraiser, so rely on them. That’s fine. The dealer chose GIA for grading because lots of people trust them and you're quite right that their fee is built into the cost of your stone. This was a marketing decision and, frankly, I think they were probably right in making it. Things routinely sell better with GIA pedigree. Your dealer (or their supplier) set the price based on this GIA grading or the dealers' estimation of it. Again, YOU weren’t the client here and the price would be based on that whether you care or not and whether or not they choose to show you the report. They could choose to do the grading themselves and save the $100 in lab fees or they could use an alternative lab, most of which are a bit cheaper, but it's still up to them to decide if this savings will be passed on to you. I have to say, my experience tells me that usually it's not. Usually it goes the other direction. The price will STILL be based on GIA grading, even if they report something completely different, like grading from some other lab or from one of their own employees. Why should you care? Because if the dealer is reporting something that they KNOW to be false, and are asking customers to make a purchase decision based on that information, most people consider that to be important, if for no other reason than that it helps in choosing a dealer.
 

Rockdiamond

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Jan 7, 2009
Messages
8,406
Just to follow up on Neil's excellent post- Si1 and 2 are often eye clean- and being VS is no guarantee a diamond is eye clean- most are, but not all.

SLG is spot on about "independent"...... you're getting jerked around here.....
 

dreamer_dachsie

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Dec 16, 2007
Messages
24,364
gamer2be08|1309964207|2962769 said:
Dont be too upset, my EGL diamond was off a total of 8 grades in the color/clarity categories. Bought a G diamond, got an L diamond. He put it next to an L and a k and it looked more like the L. Bought an VS1 diamond, got a IS1 diamond. Bought an ex polish and ex symmetry diamond, was told it was very good polish. I would have been glad had mine been a couple grades off. Not 8 though.
This is very common with EGL, see the numerous threads on the topic. Not with GIA.

OP: SI2 diamonds usually have eye visible inclusions (though it depends who you ask and you can of course find eye clean stones). And one grade difference from GIA to the appraiser is not wildly inaccurate. There are many SI2 that are borderline I1 and it is a judgement call. Trust GIA, not the appraiser in this case. He is not independent as he sells diamonds himself. He also should know better than to try to grade color while the diamond is set, and to then try to tell you his grade is more accurate than GIA :nono: Color grading is done loose with the diamond face down.
 

kenny

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Apr 30, 2005
Messages
28,963
Please immediately run away screaming from this crook.

He just stole $92 from you and is trying to steal much more.
 

oldminer

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Sep 3, 2000
Messages
6,448
I just got a diamond in for appraisal work, a 2.40ct round, that came with a GIA paper saying it was G-VS2. It was not the right color or clarity. To me it looked like an "F" color with a bit of Blue UV fluorescence and SI2 clarity. The GIA report said no UV fluorescence. The depth was 0.1mm less than on the GIA report. There was an extra facet on the pavilion which was not on the GIA report. There were clarity grade-setting inclusions not on the GIA report. The GIA graded the symmetry as Excellent, and this stone is only "Good".

The weight is correct, but it is the wrong diamond.

The client called the retailer and sure enough, they also own an identical weight diamond F-SI2 with a bit of UV fluorescence....

The client is getting the stone they paid for and the one I have will be going back to a very red-faced vendor.

The vendor was NOT a Pricescope vendor or even one who sells via the Internet.

Stuff happens! Being cautious can prevent a real problem. Discovering this problem a few weeks or months later would be a much worse situation. This stone had not yet been set or worn. No time had elapsed for a switch.

The GIA does not make an F to I color grading error. I heard a rumor that some improperly graded GIA stones had made the rounds some months ago and that a couple employees had been let go over it. However, it was not a major scandal or of major proportion. GIA's idea of "F" color is very rigid and strict. I had a stone which looked like "E" color and had an AGS "E" color on its report, yet GIA insisted on "F" even with our appeal of the "F" grading. Such a difference between F and I is not that sort of borderline call.
 
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