GIA Trip X a mistake? Advice appreciated!

[Shogun97]

Hi Everyone,

This is my first post here so go easy on me. I have recently been doing an incredible amount of reading on this site and I'm a bit worried I may have made a costly mistake. I recently placed a deposit on a GIA triple X that I thought was a great stone.... After running it through HCA (4.1) and researching some of the more ideal angle combinations I'm feeling very uneasy about my choice.

Please give me a hand in deciding if I should go back and try to look for a better choice that is closer to the top end of GIA excellent or if my fears are unfounded.

Can't tell you all how much I appreciate the advice.

Here are my stats:

7.17-7.21 x 4.47

1.43 Carat

G color

Si2 Clarity

Cut/Polish/Sym - Excellent

Depth 62.1%

Table 59%

Crown 35 degree

Crown height 14.5%

Pav Angle 41.2 degrees

Pav Depth 43.5%

Girdle medium to slightly thick

Fluoresence - None

 

[SirGuy]

That is what's known as a "steep/deep" stone, for its higher crown angle and deeper pavilion angle. The angles should work with each other for quality light performance: as the crown angle decreases, the pavilion angle should increase. GIA grades cut by rounding numbers on the facets, and allows for angles within its "excellent" range to pass, regardless of whether they complement each other.

This stone is heavy for its spread and is hiding weight in its depth and girdle. You're paying more for less and its light performance probably wouldn't be as stellar as one would hope.

If you can return and keep searching, it's not unreasonable to do so.

 

[Shogun97]

Thanks for the reply SirGuy

Appreciate the insight. What kind of shape am I in if I can't exchange the stone for another with better values? Is this stone a dog? I really felt like I was making a good purchase trusting GIA parameters.

Aga DIY cut adviser returned a value of 1B - which falls in the top category

Thanks again

 

[SirGuy]

A dog? No, not at all. Pricescope folks value cut quite a bit, and sometimes have rather strong opinions about it and what's ideal. Realistically that stone is better than the vast majority out there; it's not like an EGL Israel "very good" or anything.

If you were able to return it and keep looking there's a good chance we could help you find one within your budget that has better performance. Besides, this is just by the numbers; your own eyes and reflector images tell as much if not more of a story.

All things being equal though, there are better stones out there if you're patient.

 

[Shogun97]

I made an appointment for tomorrow to go back and see the stone again and discuss my options. I'm doubtful that I will be able to get a refund, but an exchange may be possible as the diamond has not been set yet.

I guess the question is what types of questions should I be asking in order to improve on my current choice. I can probably delay the ring for a short period and come back with a few different options for evaluation.

Lastly and this may seem like a ridiculous question but if I choose a stone that still falls in the trip X category but with tighter numbers will this always result in a higher price point?

Thanks!

 

[JDDN]

If you are uncertain about the stone, please push for their official return policy. I can't imagine they have a no return policy on an unset stone. They will likely down play a return policy but be very open to exchanging for obvious reasons.

Here are some parameters to work with in looking at proportions. Use the HCA calculator too, with a score less than 2 being worth further consideration.

Table: 55-57% or up to 58%
Depth: 60-62.3 ( Can probably go up to 62.5 with a thick girdle say 4%)
Crown angle: 34-35
Pavilion angle: 40.6-41

Take these with a grain of salt as it's just part of the whole package. A CA of 34 will tend to be more complimentary with a PA of 40.9 and a CA of 35 will be more complimentary with a PA of 40.6. This is what SirGuy was explaining.

For your last Q, theoretically the answer is no, but it depends on what mark-up the vendor is doing on each stone. In other words, choosing a triple X stone with numbers in the above range will not automatically be more expensive.

 

[Shogun97]

Thanks JDDN

I'll definitely look into the return policy. Seeing that I have already placed a deposit, exchange is probably my only option.

Thanks for the stat listing above. I hope that my jeweler has the tools to filter by those numbers. If not will I have to go stone by stone entering the angles in HCA on the fly? It may also be possible to take the info away for few options and update my thread for input? Trying to find the most efficient way to sort this out.

Is there as simple formula or chart that I can print out to check the crown and Pav angles on fly?

Your response on the pricing is encouraging I'm hopeful I can find a better option in the same price range.

Appreciate all the advice guys

 

[Shogun97]

Just to add to my post above.

What should my arguments be going into this conversation? I know that I'm going to get "this is a great stone its GIA triple X???"

Can you help me out with some valid arguments to return/exchange it.

I read on the forum that most wholesalers are not familiar with HCA or AGA diy cut grader

 

[JDDN]

There aren't really any tools or filters aside from looking at the GIA for the numbers yourself. You'll then have to plug into the HCA. It may be tedious, but it's well worth it. A vendor I'm working with had their team vet stones based on the parameters I gave you (within a carat range, color and clarity range as well). They forwarded me the stones that fit into the parameters and I plugged into the HCA myself.

You can always post numbers and any images for us to help you with!

Write down the parameters I gave you to reference in the showroom.

I have found it's best not to get into too much conversation about GIA triple X vs AGS 000 as they will argue their opinions, etc. The best thing is to just go in and tell them, "I'm looking for a specific type of stone. It falls into these parameters. Can you help me find one that fits into this category?" If they ask you why you didn't present this the first time, just tell them you have some new information about what your GF loves and this is it and you really want to get it right for her.

True many are not aware of the HCA. Don't worry, you can use it yourself.

As far as what to tell them about returning/exchanging it. First, you are paying a lot of money and it's a big purchase. Don't let them guilt you or pressure you!

Some valid reasons:
- You feel you can do better in terms of the spread and personality of the stone
- It's a big expensive purchase and you want to explore more options and take your time

What was the deposit amount? If you don't find something you love and if they are being less than wonderful to work with, it may be worth moving on.

 

[Ellen_GG_AJP]

You're going to get the argument of "but it's a great stone, it's triple ex" because that is a valid argument. You thought the stone was nice enough until you started running numbers, right? Do you trust your eyes or a calculator? You're not buying a calculation, you're buying a diamond. I truly think people get hung up on extremely minor details. Yes, there is a range within triple ex, but I really doubt that if you had 10 stones lined up that were all in a range of triple ex that you would be able to sort them in order. In fact I promise you that you could not. My favorite triple is 60 depth, 60 table. Why? Because you get a bigger look. How much bigger? Barely, let's be honest. Some people don't like a stone with 60 depth because they think it's too shallow. There is a bit of an art in all of this which means there are different opinions. I totally understand it is a huge purchase and you want to get the absolute most out of your money, I truly do. But there is no way that stone is a bad cut or it wouldn't have that grading.

From the retailers point of view it's possible that they called this stone in just for you to see. They paid shipping to bring it in. Perhaps on several diamonds. They've already told the vendor it's sold and have paid for it. And they are really not making very much money on this at all. None of this is your problem. It's their problem. But you can begin to see why retailers don't like to take returns on diamonds. So if you decide you just don't like the stone, that is fair, but don't do it because some online calculator told you that you don't like it.

 

[JDDN]

I think a triple X GIA stone is a great stone if the person who is wearing it feels it is, not because a salesperson tells you it is or b/c it scores well on an HCA. There are many gorgeous stones that fall outside the parameters I posted. Many like the look of a "steep deep" and that is all preference. I think what is important is that you feel great and wonderful about your purchase. If you loved the stone and then started second guessing your purchase after coming on PS, then I'd say don't get lost in all the techy talk. If you had reservations the entire time, felt pressured to buy b/c the salesperson was telling you it was beautiful, then the purchase warrants further exploration.

The parameters and HCA are tools to use to help select a nice performing stone. If you found a stone that fit exactly in the parameters but you didn't like it, well don't buy it! If you found one that's slightly outside the parameters and you adore it, then buy it!

Also, about trusting your eyes- there have been some really eloquent threads on needing more than a moment to decide if you love the look of a stone. Taking it home and looking at it in different lighting is really the best way to determine if it's for you (or her .

 

[Shogun97]

There aren't really any tools or filters aside from looking at the GIA for the numbers yourself. You'll then have to plug into the HCA. It may be tedious, but it's well worth it. A vendor I'm working with had their team vet stones based on the parameters I gave you (within a carat range, color and clarity range as well). They forwarded me the stones that fit into the parameters and I plugged into the HCA myself.

You can always post numbers and any images for us to help you with!

Write down the parameters I gave you to reference in the showroom.

I have found it's best not to get into too much conversation about GIA triple X vs AGS 000 as they will argue their opinions, etc. The best thing is to just go in and tell them, "I'm looking for a specific type of stone. It falls into these parameters. Can you help me find one that fits into this category?" If they ask you why you didn't present this the first time, just tell them you have some new information about what your GF loves and this is it and you really want to get it right for her.

True many are not aware of the HCA. Don't worry, you can use it yourself.

As far as what to tell them about returning/exchanging it. First, you are paying a lot of money and it's a big purchase. Don't let them guilt you or pressure you!

Some valid reasons:
- You feel you can do better in terms of the spread and personality of the stone
- It's a big expensive purchase and you want to explore more options and take your time

What was the deposit amount? If you don't find something you love and if they are being less than wonderful to work with, it may be worth moving on.

Thanks JDDN all good advice. I'll see what happens on Friday when I ask what is possible. Deposit was substantial so not willing to walk away from it. At the very least I would like to compare against the top tier option.

You're going to get the argument of "but it's a great stone, it's triple ex" because that is a valid argument. You thought the stone was nice enough until you started running numbers, right? Do you trust your eyes or a calculator? You're not buying a calculation, you're buying a diamond. I truly think people get hung up on extremely minor details. Yes, there is a range within triple ex, but I really doubt that if you had 10 stones lined up that were all in a range of triple ex that you would be able to sort them in order. In fact I promise you that you could not. My favorite triple is 60 depth, 60 table. Why? Because you get a bigger look. How much bigger? Barely, let's be honest. Some people don't like a stone with 60 depth because they think it's too shallow. There is a bit of an art in all of this which means there are different opinions. I totally understand it is a huge purchase and you want to get the absolute most out of your money, I truly do. But there is no way that stone is a bad cut or it wouldn't have that grading.

From the retailers point of view it's possible that they called this stone in just for you to see. They paid shipping to bring it in. Perhaps on several diamonds. They've already told the vendor it's sold and have paid for it. And they are really not making very much money on this at all. None of this is your problem. It's their problem. But you can begin to see why retailers don't like to take returns on diamonds. So if you decide you just don't like the stone, that is fair, but don't do it because some online calculator told you that you don't like it.

Thanks for the reply Ellen

I did certainly think the stone was nice but I wasn't comparing it to stones that represented the top tier. If I can own a top tier for the same price as the one I put a deposit on I would prefer that option. The vendor I'm dealing with is a wholesaler and supplies the stones to brick and mortar shops so all the stones are on hand. I actually hope that when I go for my meeting tomorrow you are right and I can't tell any difference at all. I appreciate your input.

 

[Texas Leaguer]

Understanding the clarity features and possible impacts on performance in the Si2 grade can be as important (or more important) than cut quality differences within the range of GIA EX. If you can post some information about that, or a link to the certificate, you will get some feedback on that aspect which might be helpful to you.

 

[Shogun97]

I think a triple X GIA stone is a great stone if the person who is wearing it feels it is, not because a salesperson tells you it is or b/c it scores well on an HCA. There are many gorgeous stones that fall outside the parameters I posted. Many like the look of a "steep deep" and that is all preference. I think what is important is that you feel great and wonderful about your purchase. If you loved the stone and then started second guessing your purchase after coming on PS, then I'd say don't get lost in all the techy talk. If you had reservations the entire time, felt pressured to buy b/c the salesperson was telling you it was beautiful, then the purchase warrants further exploration.

The parameters and HCA are tools to use to help select a nice performing stone. If you found a stone that fit exactly in the parameters but you didn't like it, well don't buy it! If you found one that's slightly outside the parameters and you adore it, then buy it!

Also, about trusting your eyes- there have been some really eloquent threads on needing more than a moment to decide if you love the look of a stone. Taking it home and looking at it in different lighting is really the best way to determine if it's for you (or her .

I'm hopeful after a second look and comparing it against a few other options I can put my questions to rest. Truth be told I felt pretty good about my purchase, it looked pretty good to my untrained eye and felt that I could trust that if I went triple X I was getting the best of the best. I later learned of the variance in the excellent category and then my 4.1 HCA score. This is when I decided to post and get some opinions from the experts.

 

[Shogun97]

Understanding the clarity features and possible impacts on performance in the Si2 grade can be as important (or more important) than cut quality differences within the range of GIA EX. If you can post some information about that, or a link to the certificate, you will get some feedback on that aspect which might be helpful to you.

Sorry Texas I'm new to this if you can let me know what you mean by post information about the clarity it would help me.

 

[Texas Leaguer]

Understanding the clarity features and possible impacts on performance in the Si2 grade can be as important (or more important) than cut quality differences within the range of GIA EX. If you can post some information about that, or a link to the certificate, you will get some feedback on that aspect which might be helpful to you.

Sorry Texas I'm new to this if you can let me know what you mean by post information about the clarity it would help me.

I understand. My point is that as you move down through the clarity grades, each one gets broader. At the Si2 level there can be multiple inclusions of different kinds. In some cases they can be visible to the naked eye and/or be of a nature that impacts transparency and crispness of scintillation and fire. The information about the clarity features on the GIA report (stone plot,keys to symbols, and sometimes statements under comments) can shed some light on possible issues. Viewing the stone in person is of course the bottom line, especially if you have the guidance of an expert such as a qualified appraiser.

 

[Shogun97]

Understanding the clarity features and possible impacts on performance in the Si2 grade can be as important (or more important) than cut quality differences within the range of GIA EX. If you can post some information about that, or a link to the certificate, you will get some feedback on that aspect which might be helpful to you.

Sorry Texas I'm new to this if you can let me know what you mean by post information about the clarity it would help me.

I understand. My point is that as you move down through the clarity grades, each one gets broader. At the Si2 level there can be multiple inclusions of different kinds. In some cases they can be visible to the naked eye and/or be of a nature that impacts transparency and crispness of scintillation and fire. The information about the clarity features on the GIA report (stone plot,keys to symbols, and sometimes statements under comments) can shed some light on possible issues. Viewing the stone in person is of course the bottom line, especially if you have the guidance of an expert such as a qualified appraiser.

Ok I get what you are saying. In this situation I have seen the stone . It's more about second guessing based on options being available higher the the Gia range. I want to revisit my selection to see if any of those options available. I don't have an issue with the inclusions affecting the brilliance of my current choice

 

[Texas Leaguer]

Understanding the clarity features and possible impacts on performance in the Si2 grade can be as important (or more important) than cut quality differences within the range of GIA EX. If you can post some information about that, or a link to the certificate, you will get some feedback on that aspect which might be helpful to you.

Sorry Texas I'm new to this if you can let me know what you mean by post information about the clarity it would help me.

I understand. My point is that as you move down through the clarity grades, each one gets broader. At the Si2 level there can be multiple inclusions of different kinds. In some cases they can be visible to the naked eye and/or be of a nature that impacts transparency and crispness of scintillation and fire. The information about the clarity features on the GIA report (stone plot,keys to symbols, and sometimes statements under comments) can shed some light on possible issues. Viewing the stone in person is of course the bottom line, especially if you have the guidance of an expert such as a qualified appraiser.

Ok I get what you are saying. In this situation I have seen the stone . It's more about second guessing based on options being available higher the the Gia range. I want to revisit my selection to see if any of those options available. I don't have an issue with the inclusions affecting the brilliance of my current choice

That's good. Verifying with your own eyes is always the bottom line. I would not second guess yourself too much if you are happy with what you see. But it's always a good idea to get an independent expert opinion as small but significant differences can be difficult to appreciate without experience.

As was suggested it is also good to live with the diamond for a while to observe it in many different lighting conditions. Therefore a good return policy is important. Also trade-up policies are valuable as you may develop a more refined "visual palate" as time goes on, and having the ability to upgrade in the future is a wonderful benefit.

Good luck to you, and enjoy your diamond journey!

 

[John P]

You're going to get the argument of "but it's a great stone, it's triple ex" because that is a valid argument. You thought the stone was nice enough until you started running numbers, right? Do you trust your eyes or a calculator? You're not buying a calculation, you're buying a diamond. I truly think people get hung up on extremely minor details. Yes, there is a range within triple ex, but I really doubt that if you had 10 stones lined up that were all in a range of triple ex that you would be able to sort them in order. In fact I promise you that you could not. My favorite triple is 60 depth, 60 table. Why? Because you get a bigger look. How much bigger? Barely, let's be honest. Some people don't like a stone with 60 depth because they think it's too shallow. There is a bit of an art in all of this which means there are different opinions. I totally understand it is a huge purchase and you want to get the absolute most out of your money, I truly do. But there is no way that stone is a bad cut or it wouldn't have that grading.

From the retailers point of view it's possible that they called this stone in just for you to see. They paid shipping to bring it in. Perhaps on several diamonds. They've already told the vendor it's sold and have paid for it. And they are really not making very much money on this at all. None of this is your problem. It's their problem. But you can begin to see why retailers don't like to take returns on diamonds. So if you decide you just don't like the stone, that is fair, but don't do it because some online calculator told you that you don't like it.

It's always good advice, to use the eyes. There are distinctly different levels of performance, and especially nuance, encompassed in the wide range of GIA EX. The 60-60 look has different character than a Tolk-Ideal make, and both have different visual character than a transitional cut. There are also notable differences in performance levels. Some diamonds, even falling into GIA EX, don't remain bright at the edges, or even under the table, when taken into soft lighting.

"All diamonds look great under showroom lights" is true. But the discovery of a diamond's performance is not a judgment of a moment. It takes time to explore and enjoy what it gives back through many different illumination scenarios. And, as TX Leaguer mentioned, your visual palate is no different than your hearing or taste palate. With experience and exposure comes greater sensitivity and appreciation for a fine diamond's beauty, just as with wine and music.