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GIA grading

dyb225

Rough_Rock
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I have purchased several fancy colored diamonds with GIA reports. Some of the reports have a clarity grade, but several only contain the color of the diamond and that the color is natural. When I purchased these diamonds, I was under the impression that because they had a color grade from GIA that they also had natural clarity, with no enhancements. However, there is a seller on eBay who has some fancy diamonds for sale that have a color grade from GIA, but he states in the auction description that the diamonds are clarity enhanced. I was under the impression that GIA didn't grade diamonds that were clarity enhanced. I have emailed GIA concerning this, but I got no response. Can anyone help me with this? Thanks so much for your time.
 

denverappraiser

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GIA does not issue reports on clarity filled diamonds and this includes the 'color only' format with fancy colors. It's possible that the seller got the GIA and then had them filled later but I think it's more likely that it's simply not a GIA lab grading on the color.

GIA WILL grade stones that have been laser drilled, which falls under the category of 'clarity enhancement' as far as the FTC is concerned. Perhaps this is what they mean.

If the stone has been modified since the report was issued, the report would no longer be valid and you should ignore it.
 

kenny

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GIA offers two reports for natural fancy colored diamonds.
The cheaper one does not grade clarity and several other things.
The more expensive one does but is not available for diamonds under 0.15 ct.

FWIW, this link to the fee schedules on GIA's website carries the clarity-enhancement info below.

After clicking on this link click on U.S Dollar
http://www.gia.edu/lab-reports-services/fees_payment/lab_fees/index.html

ADDITIONAL INFORMATION
Grading services include testing to determine whether material is a diamond, and whether it is natural or synthetic. All diamonds are tested for laser drilling, fracture filling, irradiation, and high pressure/high temperature (HPHT). Grading and Laser Inscription services are performed on loose diamonds only. Identification and Origin services will be performed on loose or mounted diamonds.
 

dyb225

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Thanks so much for your responses. So, from reading Kenny's response with information from the GIA website, I can be assured that the fancy colored diamonds I have with a color grade only are also of natural clarity? Are there any clarity enhancements that were left out of this disclaimer? Again, thanks so much.
 

kenny

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dyb225|1310574588|2968107 said:
Thanks so much for your responses. So, from reading Kenny's response with information from the GIA website, I can be assured that the fancy colored diamonds I have with a color grade only are also of natural clarity? Are there any clarity enhancements that were left out of this disclaimer? Again, thanks so much.
So the question is . . .
GIA's less-expensvie FCD report, aka ID and Origin, does not grade clarity BUT if it gets the report does that mean the clarity was not enhanced?
This is a reasonable and good question.
I have always assumed that the answer is yes but now that you have illuminated the question I'd love to hear the answer from GIA itself.

I also own a few FCDs that got GIA's abreviated ID and Origin report so I'm also curious about this point.
I will ask the GG at Leibish & Co. and try to contact GIA.
 

kenny

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Again, GIA issues two kinds of reports on natural fancy colored diamonds.
One grades everything and the other only grades a few things, which does not include clarity.
The abbreviated one is called the Colored Diamond Identification and Origin Report or CDIOR.

I just called GIA.
I spoke to a gentleman named Mike who works in the colored diamond grading lab in GIA's location in Carlsbad California.

He says GIA will NOT issue a CDIOR on a diamond that is fractured filled but WILL issue a CDIOR on a diamond that is laser drilled and that report will not mention the laser drilling.
They do not even look for laser drilling on FCDs submitted for a CDIOR.
If a grader happens to notice laser drilling he/she does nothing with that information.

I was very surprised to hear this.

He recommended getting the vendor to put in writing that it is not laser drilled so you have recourse after the sale and getting it looked at by an independent professional qualified Graduate Gemologist.
 

dyb225

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Thanks so much, Kenny, for finding out this information for me (us). I am very disappointed! I was under the impression that GIA would not grade treated or enhanced diamonds or, at the least, they would disclose it on their reports. I guess it's true--you get what you pay for. From now on, when I send anything in to be graded, I'm not going to settle for a color report. I'm forking out the extra money and finding out what I really have! Thanks again for your help. You've been great!
 

denverappraiser

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kenny|1310575427|2968118 said:
dyb225|1310574588|2968107 said:
Thanks so much for your responses. So, from reading Kenny's response with information from the GIA website, I can be assured that the fancy colored diamonds I have with a color grade only are also of natural clarity? Are there any clarity enhancements that were left out of this disclaimer? Again, thanks so much.
So the question is . . .
GIA's less-expensvie FCD report, aka ID and Origin, does not grade clarity BUT if it gets the report does that mean the clarity was not enhanced?
This is a reasonable and good question.
I have always assumed that the answer is yes but now that you have illuminated the question I'd love to hear the answer from GIA itself.

I also own a few FCDs that got GIA's abreviated ID and Origin report so I'm also curious about this point.
I will ask the GG at Leibish & Co. and try to contact GIA.
They will issue a FCD report on drilled stones. These are technically 'enhanced'.
They will not issue ANY kind of report on filled stones.
It is possible to fill a stone AFTER they have examined it and issued a report. This would invalidate the report but the printed document would still exist and GIA obviously would have no way of knowing if this has been done.
 

kenny

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dyb225|1310577789|2968150 said:
Thanks so much, Kenny, for finding out this information for me (us). I am very disappointed! I was under the impression that GIA would not grade treated or enhanced diamonds or, at the least, they would disclose it on their reports. I guess it's true--you get what you pay for. From now on, when I send anything in to be graded, I'm not going to settle for a color report. I'm forking out the extra money and finding out what I really have! Thanks again for your help. You've been great!
Yes getting GIA's full grading report is the best protection of all reports out there.

Still GIA will not issue that full report on FCDs under 0.15 ct.
When it's that small GIA will only issue the CDIOR.
So if you want something .14 or under get it looked at for laser drilling by someone you trust who is competent and independent.
 

dyb225

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Thanks so much for all the help. I'll keep all these things in mind next time I'm diamond hunting.
 

oldminer

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Although I sure would be very concerned about a filled diamond being unstable or fragile, if there is an origin of color report from GIA that fits that stone, then the color you see, even if it has now been pumped full of glass, is probably natural in its apparent body color. However, a filling could be engineered to increase the apparent color although I have not seen or heard of any such filling. There is always a new game in town and no one can keep up with the ideas to cheat people. The filling alone would stop me totally from buying it anyway, but I admit I have seen filled diamonds that did look nice enough. I just worry about breakage, UV exposure, heat, and longevity with them and avoid putting money into them.

Glass filling in near colorless diamonds is said to alter the apparent color a bit, but not more than a grade. If a seller is willing to treat a diamond after the GIA made its report, then that seller is possibly willing to do other things to confuse buyers.
 

dyb225

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I haven't posted lately because I had to go out of town unexpectedly. When I got back, I took another look at the GIA website. Upon reading the descriptions of all four colored diamond reports, there is a statement under each report that says if no diamond that has been filled or has been enhanced by unstable conditions will be graded. And, if it is found that a diamond has been clarity enhanced by the stable treatments of laser drilling and heat, these enhancements would be disclosed in the report. This would lead one to believe that if they purchase a diamond with a color only report that they have purchased a diamond that has no enhancements whatsoever.

Yet, when Kenny called GIA, the rep stated that if laser drilling were detected, they wouldn't include it in the report. What are we to believe? I can look at a diamond and tell pretty much what clarity it is. So, when I purchased the colored diamonds I have, I knew about what clarity they were, but believed, because of the report, that they were not clarity enhanced. I didn't want a clarity enhanced diamond; if I had, I would have purchased one where the enhancement was disclosed. I could have gotten it at a much lower price.

Shouldn't GIA be held accountable for their written statements? Am I the first person who has raised this question? Is anyone else as mad about this as I am? I had emailed them a while back concerning this, but received no response. I just sent another email. I'll keep everyone posted as to what they say.

Thanks again for the responses. They are very much appreciated.
 

denverappraiser

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dyb225|1310926183|2970851 said:
I haven't posted lately because I had to go out of town unexpectedly. When I got back, I took another look at the GIA website. Upon reading the descriptions of all four colored diamond reports, there is a statement under each report that says if no diamond that has been filled or has been enhanced by unstable conditions will be graded. And, if it is found that a diamond has been clarity enhanced by the stable treatments of laser drilling and heat, these enhancements would be disclosed in the report. This would lead one to believe that if they purchase a diamond with a color only report that they have purchased a diamond that has no enhancements whatsoever.

Yet, when Kenny called GIA, the rep stated that if laser drilling were detected, they wouldn't include it in the report. What are we to believe? I can look at a diamond and tell pretty much what clarity it is. So, when I purchased the colored diamonds I have, I knew about what clarity they were, but believed, because of the report, that they were not clarity enhanced. I didn't want a clarity enhanced diamond; if I had, I would have purchased one where the enhancement was disclosed. I could have gotten it at a much lower price.

Shouldn't GIA be held accountable for their written statements? Am I the first person who has raised this question? Is anyone else as mad about this as I am? I had emailed them a while back concerning this, but received no response. I just sent another email. I'll keep everyone posted as to what they say.

Thanks again for the responses. They are very much appreciated.
I"m not getting what you find confusing. Laser drilling is a clarity characteristic, and clarity characteristics are only discussed on reports that include clarity. Disclosure, to the extent that it's called for, is something you get from your dealer, not the lab. GIA refuses to grade glass filled stones at all. It's one of the few reasons they'll decline a job so you CAN take the fact that they issued a report as evidence that they believed at the time that the stone was a genuine diamond that did not currently have a glass filling. What am I missing?
 

kenny

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I am also very interested in this topic.
I have bought some FCDs with the abbreviated reports.
Some are too small to get full reports, which again are only issued for diamonds 0.15 ct and above.

I have louped the heck out of mine with a good loupe and consulted books with pics of laser drilling.
I have tried this with many different lighting conditions and am satisfied my stones are not laser drilled.
The laser drilling pics make it seem to be VERY noticeable compared to say a tiny pinpoint, which I can spot easily with my loupe.

While I am comfortable with my purchases, I still I see this as an unfortunate and unresolved issue.

I recommend you examine your stones with abbreviated reports for laser drilling or have someone competent do this for you to set your mind at ease once and for all.
In the future I think I will avoid stones with the abbreviated report until I get evidence from GIA or my vendor Leibish that they cannot be laser drilled.
 

kenny

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denverappraiser|1310926883|2970852 said:
dyb225|1310926183|2970851 said:
I haven't posted lately because I had to go out of town unexpectedly. When I got back, I took another look at the GIA website. Upon reading the descriptions of all four colored diamond reports, there is a statement under each report that says if no diamond that has been filled or has been enhanced by unstable conditions will be graded. And, if it is found that a diamond has been clarity enhanced by the stable treatments of laser drilling and heat, these enhancements would be disclosed in the report. This would lead one to believe that if they purchase a diamond with a color only report that they have purchased a diamond that has no enhancements whatsoever.

Yet, when Kenny called GIA, the rep stated that if laser drilling were detected, they wouldn't include it in the report. What are we to believe? I can look at a diamond and tell pretty much what clarity it is. So, when I purchased the colored diamonds I have, I knew about what clarity they were, but believed, because of the report, that they were not clarity enhanced. I didn't want a clarity enhanced diamond; if I had, I would have purchased one where the enhancement was disclosed. I could have gotten it at a much lower price.

Shouldn't GIA be held accountable for their written statements? Am I the first person who has raised this question? Is anyone else as mad about this as I am? I had emailed them a while back concerning this, but received no response. I just sent another email. I'll keep everyone posted as to what they say.

Thanks again for the responses. They are very much appreciated.
I"m not getting what you find confusing. Laser drilling is a clarity characteristic, and clarity characteristics are only discussed on reports that include clarity. Disclosure, to the extent that it's called for, is something you get from your dealer, not the lab. GIA refuses to grade glass filled stones at all. It's one of the few reasons they'll decline a job so you CAN take the fact that they issued a report as evidence that they believed at the time that the stone was a genuine diamond that did not currently have a glass filling. What am I missing?
I will quote what I wrote above . . .

"I just called GIA.
I spoke to a gentleman named Mike who works in the colored diamond grading lab in GIA's location in Carlsbad California.

He says GIA will NOT issue a CDIOR on a diamond that is fractured filled but WILL issue a CDIOR on a diamond that is laser drilled and that report will not mention the laser drilling.
They do not even look for laser drilling on FCDs submitted for a CDIOR.
If a grader happens to notice laser drilling he/she does nothing with that information.

I was very surprised to hear this.

He recommended getting the vendor to put in writing that it is not laser drilled so you have recourse after the sale and getting it looked at by an independent professional qualified Graduate Gemologist."
 

dyb225

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I'm sorry if I have confused you. My problem is not with glass filling or the fact that a stone could receive clarity enhancements after the report is issued.

GIA states on their website that they will not grade diamonds that have been enhanced by glass filling or any other unstable form of enhancement. They also state that they will disclose on all reports if the diamond has been clarity enhanced by heat or laser drilling.

I am not interested in diamonds that have any enhancements at all. So, when I purchase a diamond that has a GIA report (even the color only reports), I should be assured (from GIA website statements) that any diamond with a report is free of any enhancements, if these enhancements are not specifically stated on the report.

Am I correct in assuming that any enhancements, even the stable enhancements of heat and laser drilling, lower the price of a diamond significantly? If so, then I should be concerned that these things are not being disclosed on the reports, as they assure us they are.
 

kenny

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I will pursue this.
Perhaps Mike at GIA was mistaken, misinformed or I misunderstood.

I will try to contact him and let him know that his words appear to conflict with GIA's written policies.
 

denverappraiser

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Got it. It’s a relatively recent change at the FTC that laser drilling falls under the category of ‘enhancement’ rather than as part of the cutting process but I agree that the website is at the very least confusing and I suspect the heart of the problem is the definition of 'enhancement'. Enhancement requires disclosure by the seller while other process, like cutting, do not, even though they have obviously been done to modify the stone from it’s original condition for the purpose of increasing the value. It’s an odd system but GIA should be well versed in navigating it. I agree with you that they obviously do NOT disclose treatment by laser or heat on ALL reports they issue and that the statement on the website is clearly false.
 

diagem

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denverappraiser|1310931773|2970893 said:
Got it. It’s a relatively recent change at the FTC that laser drilling falls under the category of ‘enhancement’ rather than as part of the cutting process but I agree that the website is at the very least confusing and I suspect the heart of the problem is the definition of 'enhancement'. Enhancement requires disclosure by the seller while other process, like cutting, do not, even though they have obviously been done to modify the stone from it’s original condition for the purpose of increasing the value. It’s an odd system but GIA should be well versed in navigating it. I agree with you that they obviously do NOT disclose treatment by laser or heat on ALL reports they issue and that the statement on the website is clearly false.
WFDB inner-rules say any enhancements MUST be disclosed.
I believe this should require GIA to act accordingly even though they are not members. It's simply considered an INDUSTRY norm.
 

Tom Gelb

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I left the GIA about three years ago, but when I was working there in the colored diamonds department there was a comment stating "Laser drilling (drill holes) are present". If a colored diamond origin of color grader sees laser drill holes they are required to put this comment in the report. I am sure this is still the case and expect that the GIA rep was mistaken. This type of minuitae is only known to those who do the work everyday, all day. There are literally hundreds of rules like this that must be followed at the GIA and it is often the case that those who speak with the public and trade do not have full information.

I would think another call to the GIA is warranted to those who are concerned.
 

denverappraiser

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Tom,

Thanks. Glad to hear that we're talking about an error on the part of a grader on a particulr stone or a misstatement by a PR person and not a systemic problem at GIA.

I have a question for you. If GIA rejects a stone for being glass filled, is there some sort of report or letter issued indicating WHY they rejected the stone or is it just returned to the client with nothing? Is there a charge for this service? Are there any other gemological reasons why they would decline a job besides glass filling?
 

diagem

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denverappraiser|1310990350|2971302 said:
Tom,

Thanks. Glad to hear that we're talking about an error on the part of a grader on a particulr stone or a misstatement by a PR person and not a systemic problem at GIA.

I have a question for you. If GIA rejects a stone for being glass filled, is there some sort of report or letter issued indicating WHY they rejected the stone or is it just returned to the client with nothing? Is there a charge for this service? Are there any other gemological reasons why they would decline a job besides glass filling?
Good question Neil, I wish GIA had more reasons for declining jobs..., like for instant their "undetermined" status on some hard or impossible to identify color(less) Diamonds. IMO, if GIA can't determine a natural color they should decline the job. After all when GIA states a color is undetermined, the verdict is out unfairly.
 

Tom Gelb

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denverappraiser|1310990350|2971302 said:
Tom,

Thanks. Glad to hear that we're talking about an error on the part of a grader on a particulr stone or a misstatement by a PR person and not a systemic problem at GIA.

I have a question for you. If GIA rejects a stone for being glass filled, is there some sort of report or letter issued indicating WHY they rejected the stone or is it just returned to the client with nothing? Is there a charge for this service? Are there any other gemological reasons why they would decline a job besides glass filling?
Hi Neil,

Sorry for the delayed response. GIA does not reject stones. For a filled diamond an identification report is issued stating that: 1. this is a diamond and 2. the diamond has been filled. The fee is whatever the GIA charges for identification ($85 when I left). This policy may have changed over the years, and again there is very limited knowledge within the GIA about this situation, as it comes up so rarely.
There was a time when filled diamonds were just returned, but I believe the policy has always been the same, if not the actions. I am racking my brain for other situations like this, and I know there are a few, but the only one that immediately comes to mind is coated colorless diamonds, again an identification report is issued.

Of course Yoram did bring up the exception to the rule. I believe the current policy on undetermined colored diamonds offers to return the diamond to the client with no report and no fee. A report can be issued but it is at the client's discretion. At least this was the policy towards the end of my time there.

I hope this helps, and I will keep trying to remember other unusual situations and what the GIA policies are.

Tom
 

diagem

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Tom Gelb|1311187058|2973157 said:
I believe the current policy on undetermined colored diamonds offers to return the diamond to the client with no report and no fee.



Tom
Hi Tom, I guess it changed since your time..., it seems GIA has a harder time identifying color related treatments.
I presently have three colleagues of mine battling this very unpleasant issue with high value Diamonds, two colorless and one boron type II b (I believe).

The biggest problem one colleague of mine is going through is the fact that we are talking about one stone that was purchased three years ago with a GIA determined color grade, presently three years later, the stone was resold with a condition of resubmission to GIA for present verification purposes (as too many similar stories arisen), the final GIA call was an undetermined color.

So basically some older GIA determined color grades have the potential of being graded undetermined today and perhaps more so in the future as technology advances.

Problem?[/quote]
 

dyb225

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Still waiting for a response to my second email to GIA concerning their policy on reporting any and all treatments on their color only reports. This is the second email I sent them, with no response. The email was sent almost two weeks ago. I don't know if Kenny has had any luck contacting them; would be interested to find out if he has. My impression of it all is that GIA must be having issues with this and prefer not to comment at this time. That's both disappointing and consequential to those of us who purchased diamonds with color only reports, thinking that they were also free of any clarity enhancements. Keep you posted of any response, but I really don't think there will be one. People who down those other grading companies need to see that GIA definitely has "chinks" in the armor.
 
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