Getting the best fire in a stone

[firespark]

If you look at my other thread, I posted on here with questions concerning a steep/deep diamond.

When I finally received the diamond, I was very happy with it and thought it looked pretty good. However, the proportions of it and the fact that GIA excellent is such a huge bucket are still weighing on my mind especially as it goes through normal, everyday wear.

I'm looking to go in to talk to the jeweller again about it, but I thought it might be worth a few extra questions here first.

I've got a diamond that has a 36.5 crown, 41.2 pavilion, 57 table and 62.9 depth. It is on the very extreme edge of the GIA excellent. It is very bright all the time. In the right lights and conditions, it is pretty shiny. However, from reading other threads on this forum, I can't help but think it could be even sparklier and feel like maybe I'm missing out.

My FI and I don't ever want to upgrade this ring really if we can avoid it (most especially with the depreciation in value of this diamond that an upgrade might bring).

So my questions are:
- Will I be sacrificing any of the fire that this diamond currently has if I look to find a better proportioned one?
- Are these proportions so significantly far off the ideal mark that I'll see a hugely noticeable difference in a better proportioned diamond?
- What are the best proportions for the most visible fire?

 

[ecf8503]

If your numbers are correct, it scores a 4.9 on the HCA (good only if price is your main concern), with good light return, fair fire, good scintillation and very good spread. You can do better.

 

[D_]

Hi firespark,

In order to know if you could do better it'll be useful to know the price range you paid.
Also, did you work with local or online jeweler?

 

[OoohShiny]

I'm guessing you bought it off a local jeweller?

You will have to enquire as to what upgrade policy they have, if any.


With regards to fire, I paid a little extra for one of the 'branded' SuperIdeal cuts and the fire that comes off it is incredible - it has an excellent mix of white light return but also strong and bright flashes of colour. This obviously depends on the lighting, spotlights will always bring out more of a diamond's personality, but even in a flatly-lit room with no point-source lighting, the stone is visibly bright from edge to edge, with no dark areas.

For me, I would recommend the 'branded' cuts (CBI, A Cut Above, etc) as they are a 'known quantity' that balance strong white light return with a good deal of fire, but I appreciate they are a little more expensive so size/colour/clarity will likely have to be sacrificed.

As for how much more sparkly such a stone will be compared to yours? I think it's a case of "you don't know what you're missing until you see it" - but once you've seen it, it is definitely a look that you will recognise. Personally speaking, I don't think I've seen another stone that beats the stone I bought in all the windows I've looked in (although I am clearly biased at this point... lol)


If you were able to secure a good (full?) refund from your jeweller, I would recommend getting a diamond that you like that has better HCA scores shipped to you for assessment from one of the PS-recommended vendors. If you have the cash/credit, you might even be able to buy this stone first so that you can compare it to your current one, and if you don't like the cut/look/fire/etc, you can return it and only be out the cost of shipping at the most.


Whereabouts are you in the world? If you have a PS-recommended vendor near you (or near a relative you could visit for a weekend ) then you could take your stone in for some 'real life' comparisons at no/little cost

 

[firespark]

I'm guessing you bought it off a local jeweller?

You will have to enquire as to what upgrade policy they have, if any.


With regards to fire, I paid a little extra for one of the 'branded' SuperIdeal cuts and the fire that comes off it is incredible - it has an excellent mix of white light return but also strong and bright flashes of colour. This obviously depends on the lighting, spotlights will always bring out more of a diamond's personality, but even in a flatly-lit room with no point-source lighting, the stone is visibly bright from edge to edge, with no dark areas.

For me, I would recommend the 'branded' cuts (CBI, A Cut Above, etc) as they are a 'known quantity' that balance strong white light return with a good deal of fire, but I appreciate they are a little more expensive so size/colour/clarity will likely have to be sacrificed.

As for how much more sparkly such a stone will be compared to yours? I think it's a case of "you don't know what you're missing until you see it" - but once you've seen it, it is definitely a look that you will recognise. Personally speaking, I don't think I've seen another stone that beats the stone I bought in all the windows I've looked in (although I am clearly biased at this point... lol)


If you were able to secure a good (full?) refund from your jeweller, I would recommend getting a diamond that you like that has better HCA scores shipped to you for assessment from one of the PS-recommended vendors. If you have the cash/credit, you might even be able to buy this stone first so that you can compare it to your current one, and if you don't like the cut/look/fire/etc, you can return it and only be out the cost of shipping at the most.


Whereabouts are you in the world? If you have a PS-recommended vendor near you (or near a relative you could visit for a weekend ) then you could take your stone in for some 'real life' comparisons at no/little cost

Thank you everyone all for the advice. Yes, it is purchased off a local jeweller. I wouldn't be able to do PS-recommended vendors as I am not in the US. So also the price will not compare either because a lot of the online vendors are significantly cheaper. Suffice to say, it was a fair price comparatively, but I suspect you could get diamonds that fall more in line with HCA predictions for the same price.

The thing to note is that having searched through the online vendors, I've only seen one around our budget that fits the spec I'm looking that MAY potentially work. It's clear that there's probably not noticeable difference between between lower colours and D, but I find it nice to have the D colour and something that I wouldn't ideally want to compromise on even if a compromise would make sense rationally.

I'm also worried that my expectations of fire are off. I am expecting that a super ideal cut diamond should get fire in cloudy outdoors and normal lighting (which is where mine is lacking, imo). And I'd like to select for the fire, which makes it all the harder (as this suggests, a tiny table and steep crown are good things and you should select for them if looking for fire: http://www.prosumerdiamonds.com/maximising-value/). My diamond is already always bright end to end, I don't see the "ring of death" and I care about fire to the detriment of white light return (flashy white light is alright but the rainbow effect is my favourite thing in the world and I'm often disappointed if my diamond is ever giving flashy white instead of rainbows .

Thus, is it worth bothering the jeweller for? Especially if their stock is so small that the thing I'm looking for may not exist.

I've seen another poster mentioning that he/she was waaay happier exchanging a 5.5 HCA one for something more in line with a good mark but I've also seen another thread in which a poster said her tastes would lead her to enquiring more about a 41/36 combo.

Does anyone have a diamcalc copy they could run the proportions on out of curiosity? I looked into this but the software is too expensive just to get a theoretical idea of what I've got and getting an ASET or IdealScope is not an option either as I don't have enough time.

 

[decisively_unsure]

I really like the specs of your diamond. Lots of HCA 5+ can still be dazzlers, but with a different look.

Believe it or not the "leakage rings" you see in idealscope images just aren't perceptible in most real life GIA excellents, I wouldn't worry about this being visible in your diamond...

It is a slippery slope always thinking you could get a bit more, but at this level of cut you are talking small differences.

 

[D_]

Hi OP,

Actually a lot of the online vendors on PS ship outside US.
If you decide to go the local route, you have something that can be more useful than the HCA tool - your eyes.
(The HCA tool, IS, ASET images become all the more important for online purchases because you can see the diamonds with your own eyes).
The caveat is to look at and determine the beauty of the stone away from the bright lights of the shop (think of the light as a really good and thick make up).
You said you are very happy with it.
Would it be possible to mention the ideal specs to your jeweler and have him/her look for a couple of stones as close to that parameters as possible? (you may even tell him/her that you may be willing to pay a bit extra if they are significantly more beautiful).
Then you can compare them side by side before making the final decision.
Ohshiny is correct, you don't know what you are missing until you see it, if at all.

 

[D_]

It is a slippery slope always thinking you could get a bit more

sooo true

 

[decisively_unsure]

The best fire comes from lighting conditions and not as a quality of the diamond. The diamond just reflects and refracts it. Go out to a cocktail bar with multiple point LED lights with "darkened mood lighting" and wow.

Having dark ambient light with multiple narrow "beams" shooting through it is the best for fire, which is why gifting a diamond in a restaurant is always a good idea.

 

[yssie]

Even a "super ideal" diamond won't show any coloured light return outdoors in diffuse lighting environments like outdoors on a cloudy day. "indoors in normal lighting" is a vague statement - how your diamond behaves depends largely on lighting. What is your normal indoor lighting - office fluorescents? One or two halogen bulbs in the corner of the room?

Fire is (visible) dispersion, and requires a point light source. The sun (on a day without clouds) is a point source, as are spotlights in jewellery stores, the scattered bulbs at romantic restaurants, etc. ETA: As decisively said.

You are willing to sacrifice white light return to maximise coloured light return. In that case I think the stone you have right now might well be a good choice for your tastes - which are different to what most PSers are looking for Your stone will return less light, in totality, than a stone with different proportions (shallower pavilion). All diamonds always output dispersions, but whether or not your eyes are able to catch individual wavelengths of those dispersions (colour) or you just see all wavelengths together (white) depends on
A) How many high-energy outbound dispersions there are: If there are many high-energy outbound dispersions their odds of intersecting (seeing white) are higher than your odds of seeing a single uninterrupted wavelength of a single dispersion.
B) How dispersed those outbound dispersions already are when they exit the stone: Dispersion occurs the moment light enters a stone, and a single ray continues separating into component wavelengths as it travels through the stone.
C) How distanced those outbound dispersions are as they travel out of the stone: The reason small tables and high crowns are recommended is to maximise the angles between outbound dispersions, to keep them as separated as possible as they travel through to your eyes.

Reducing the total high-energy output is certainly one way to increase the odds of catching a single wavelength of a single dispersion! It isn't the way most PSers would choose, because most would not be willing to sacrifice brightness to the extend that you are (or, at least, seem to be from your posts!).

I really like D_'s idea of comparing it with other stones in-person, because that's the *only* way to be sure of how you feel, and I wish there was some way to make that possible for you! Many PS vendors do ship out of country, and there are Crafted by Infinity dealers in Europe - I will second the question of where in the world are you?

 

[decisively_unsure]

Great posts. I will also add that steeper and deeper stones (with modern long lower girdles) have many more smaller virtual facets than the hearts and arrows cut, which aren't "splintered". I happen to love the splintered diamonds and the many bold pinfire flashes compared to "arrows". I have spent a lot of time with both, either is better to some, but one looks "worse" on a scope.

One thing though a steeper stone does have to be kept squeaky clean. In fairness all stones are much better squeaky clean for best fire performance, consider that a fingerprint is like a "fair" polish - why pay for excellent when you can't see it. I do it once a week and a quick polish with a lens cloth in the morning.

 

[firespark]

Thank you again for all the helpful posts on this. Especially with the discussion of dispersion and what makes that more achievable.

I'll see if I can find one of the fancier dealers around me, but yes, I can see the point of maybe this is a bit of analysis/paralysis. I do love the diamond, but it feels kinda wrong to love it when there's "something better" that is apparently knowingly out there! LOL

+1 to the cleaning of it. That is a noticeable thing for this diamond, if it's not clean - it's working harder to sparkle. But a bit of ammonia/dish soap and a toothbrush, and it's easily back to normal.