G color/ yellow in house

[bluepetal]

I have a 2.5 carat round ideal cut G color stone, faint flouresence. It drives me crazy that in my house the stone lookes beige, but outside it looks white and sparkles like mad. Does anybody else have this problem? Should I be worried?

Additionally, I have a girlfriend who has a F diamond, but always looks like it has a light blue sparkle to it. Is this med flourecense? I really like the way that it looks!!

 

[reena]

you know, i just recently received my G colored stone and i have been driving myself crazy with the exact same thing! glad to hear it''s not just me and that it really MUST be the lighting, and not my stone!

 

[reena]

has anyone else besides the two of us had this issue? i am driving myself batty!!!

 

[Hest88]

Are you sure it''s not just a matter of incandescent lighting? In other words, is it an *indoor* problem or merely a problem in your house as opposed to in an office or store, etc. Our regular light bulbs do give off a yellowish light.

 

[perry]

I believe that I may have the explaination. The other week I was following a NiceIce thread on the "poor" quality of the new stones, and ended up with a side discussion with Marty Haste on the relatively new method of color grading diamonds with fluoresence (and then spent about a week in daily e-mail contact).

For something like 50+ years diamonds were color graded in light that had all UV removed from them. If they had blue fluoresence, that fluoresece would add life and improve the color of the diamond in daylight or other light with a UV component.

2 years ago this method was abandoned by GIA, and what they do now is grade color after exciting the fluoresence (i.e they are now using light with a noticable UV component). According to Marty, and the folks at NiceIce this can easily shift the graded color of the stone several grades. Perhaps your new "G''s" would have graded as I or J in 2002.

Thus the diamonds would look great outside, and not so great inside.

Bottom line, as far as I can see, is that fluoresence now works against you, and the consumer is being led astray on what they are getting.

Marty is working on preparing some form of legal challange to the current GIA system.

In addition, NiceIce also reports that GIA is releasing diamonds with obvioius fluoresence with certs that state ''None" for fluoresence. Afterall, what is the meaning of "...."

Thus, you may be getting a diamond with what looks like a claim of no fluoresence, that has fluoresence, where the fluoresence has been excited to produce a better color grade.

Thus, as far as I can see, GIA is not being so honest anymore and the lesson I take from this is that "consumer beware."

While I personally like fluroesence - I want it to work for me and not against me. Also, any stone that I may purchase will be independently screaned for fluoresence if it has a GIA cert to find out if the stone has it or not - then I can judge if the color rating may have been altered and the relative price.

 

[abradabra]

I have the same problem with my "H" and had very nearly convinced myself that I was uber-color sensitive and didn''t know it!

Actually, I notice that it happens A LOT more frequently if I am wearing my camel colored jacket, so I was hoping that it was reflecting that back or something...

 

[ootthibo]

I used to have an H pear and I always thought it looked yellow (except in sunlight of course). I was told that fancies tend to show color more so I always chalked it up to being that but now that everyone is talking about it I figured maybe it was really the color.

I sometimes think we all expect diamonds to be too perfect. A little yellow isn''t too bad, and most other people don''t even notice it. I remember people always telling me I was crazy for thinking that the H pear was yellow.

 

[moremoremore]

Yes, the stone can definitely reflect the colors around it! On the other hand, some Gs are "better" Gs than others. Also, some people can just plain see color in a G. Lastly, some cuts show color more than others....But I think that no matter what causes it, you''re the ONLY one who sees it!!!

 

[bluepetal]

Perry,

Are you saying my stone may be a i or j. I am mortified by this. If this is the case should I take it back. I had it appraised by AGI and they confirmed the same - faint flourescence.

I notice the color primarily in homes. In stores the stone generally looks white. Please help here because I am considering going up to an E. If I do, and the stone still looks beige in my house-I will die!!!

 

[Nicrez]

Sunlight contaings UV rays, so you are noticing the bluish (most common) florescence mask the yellow body color of the stone.

GIA uses balanced daylight equivalent florescent lighting lamps (which as we all know contain some UV rays) to grade, which comes with a long-wave UV light to check florescence.

As stones can have a different appearances even throughout the world, much less in different lighting conditions, I have to say that grading is as close to a science as there is, especially at GIA. Stones are viewed in the same lighting conditions as they are worn, daylight. In the end, florescence does effect color, and is graded as such.

Please xplain what you mean that stones that are florescent are not being graded as such, as I find this quite interesting. A grader is REQUIRED to do so, and each stone is not graded simply by ONE person but FIVE at least. Florescence is detected by the UV lights they are required to test stones under, so how is it that they neglect to find it again?

 

[moremoremore]

Bluepetal- I just noticed the size of your stone! WOWIE!!!! Larger stones clearly show more color...but it''s most likely reflections. If the GIA cert has it as a G and it appraised as a G....relax, it''s a G. It''s partially reflecting color (my E looks blue in the office with the ugly bright blue walls- but it''s not a blue stone )...and You are color sensitive like me. It''s a blessing and a curse...kind of like my ability to smell things from a mile away...TRUST me...NOT a good thing LOL....

 

[i_mkittycat]

Okay, I have one G-color princess and yes, I had the same problem. I thought it was yellow. But it''s really not noticable unless u put it next to a D-color then u can definitely tell the difference. Otherwise, G-color stones are good enough in my eyes. Nobody else can tell what color it is unless they''re really good. Otherwise, G-color is nice and sparkly.....that''s what I think though....

 

[strmrdr]

If your diamond looks yellow inside the house then change the light bulbs.
2 options:
1: ge reveal light bulbs.
Warning they will show every stain and mark on everything under them that normal bulbs mask also you will find that stuff isnt the color you thought it was.
The yellowish light from normal bulbs masks a lot of stuff the more pure white of the reveal reveals.
I like looking at gemstones under them because it is very close to what they will look like outside.

2: compact flourecent bulbs.


I like option 2 for general lighting and 1 for bathroom, kitchen spot lighting, and reading lamps.

 

[reena]

hm. thanks perry, but as much as i love the suggestion that my G diamond is really an I or J . . .

it looks super white outside, in the bathroom, in restaurants and stores with overhead lighting (CVS!

), etc. when im in certain light in my hotel room though (haven't been home yet), it can look a little beige-y. (clearly nobody would ever notice this but me.) but, i assume it is just reflecting the cream colored walls. no?

 

[perry]

bluepetal, Reena, & Nicrez

Nicrez correctly indicates what GIA changed the standard to 2 years ago. How diamonds are graded today.

Marty reports that many of the other labs have followed suit, claiming that afterall GIA sets the standards (and it would be financiall suicide not to - unless of course the labs would have been willing to challange GIA on the change).

One of the potential problems with this approach is that my reading of the Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) seems to indicate under what light conditions are to be used to color rate diamonds - and I personally cannot see how such a massive change in technique could be justified under the CFR; and I think this is a huge scam on consumers (deca millions per year).

Here is the link to Marty's article: www.gis.net/~adamas/giafluor.html

I cannot explain why GIA is reporting as "none" diamonds that have fluoresence. Perhaps they feel that since they can instantainiously change the definition of the standard on how color grading is done, that they can also redifine how fluoresence grading is done as well. Remember President's Clintons famous statement on "it depends what the meaning of "is" is."

Well now it may depend on what the meaning of "none" is (as interpredted by GIA). Note that Marty has recently reported that GIA has now changed, I believe - if my menory is correct, to "Nil"

So by the standards of "today" your stone rates as a G. The fact is that before the change in rating methods in 2002 (and about a 50 year history of color grading) - your diamond would probably have been rated a lessor color grade.

And likewise, there has apparently been a shift in the "standards" of how fluoresence is graded.

My quesion is: Is it really a "Standard" if you can change how it is done at a whim...

In my dayjob I deal a lot with various industry standards (most common ones are ASME and ASTM) and a specific government agency (Nuclear Regulatory Angency). I will not say that standard do not change. Of course they do as new information and knowledge comes forward. However, standards chage very slowly and with a lot of documentation and discussion. No industry lab or agency can just change the standard by because that is what they think should be done. In the case of Diamond color rating - the CFR would also need to be changed - and if fact, common legal practice would rule that the CFR set the standard lighting condition for color grading and that the labs must conform to that.

My personal view is that this situation is ripe for a really good class action lawsuit agains GIA and the grading houses that have followed suit with GIA's change.

What you are getting today is not what you were getting several years ago - and no one told us. How many people/agencies have profited from this shift in grading. The mines, the cutting houses, the labs who changed methods (who would you send your diamonds to for grading if the daimond had any fluoresence, lab a will get you 2 grades better in color and the increase in sales price, lab B will grade by the old method...). The wholesalers and Jewelers also profit because they make more markup on higher "value" diamonds. It is the consumer at the end who gets hurt on these changes.

As mentioned above, Marty is working on seeing if he can mount a really good legal challange -and of course the biggest battle that must be won is to have the resources to legaly outlast the multiyear legal delays and investigations that will be required to ever get the case to trial.

Anyone willing to support this effort should contact Marty Haske direct.

Those who worry how this change in grading has affected what they thought they were getting would need to have the diamond graded by the old method to compare it to the grading with the new method. J Medium Fluroescence under the old method might now be reported as G None based on information provided by Marty and NiceIce. Marty reports that sliding a piece of clear LEXAN over the illumination of the current color graders will block the UV and show any color shift.

Sorry to all those who feel the sinking feeling in their gut on this. I didn't create the situation - I just reported it. I was surprised that more people did not pick up on the original thread where the initial aspects of this was discussed about a week or so ago.

In my case I am going to be very carefully screaning any diamond I buy, with the old methods to be sure that I understand what I am getting.

-------

Concerning the comment about the diamond just reflecting the color inside the house, or poor lighting in the house. Those are of course true, and may be the major contributor for your specific situation. However, how much is also from the change in color grading and fluorescence grading.

Note that many stores and other public facilities are shifting to lighting with UV component as people tend to react better in it. Jewelery store lighting has a very definite UV component (I wonder why...)

Perry

 

[newenglandgemlab]

Yes, the color of the walls have a big impact when you look at diamond color. Get the paint brushes out! I have a jeweler that I do some work for and his diamond room is done in champagne linen on the walls. I can not color grade in that room. Everything looks tinted and dark. Poor choice on the retailer''s part, it look beautiful but doesn''t help sell diamonds. Cindy

 

[Paul-Antwerp]

Relax jc,

Now take a red piece of paper, hold it between you and your diamond, and look over the paper at your stone''s colour. Be happy, because you now have a fancy red stone.

There is absolutely no way that a correctly graded G-colour face-up looks yellowish or beige. The only cause can be the environment, being the colour of your walls and the lighting, maybe the clothes that you wear.

What Perry writes, is a serious exaggeration. OK, maybe your G might be an H, according to another grader, but it should not go any further.

Live long,

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

I am with Paul on this

Change the light bulbs and freshen up with a blueish or white color scheme

 

[i_like_tiffany_please_dont_hate_me]

very interesting (not to mention worrying...) thread

I was considering getting my gf a 1 carat engagement ring from Tiffany, but cos of budget limitations it would be an H (maybe even an I) colour. I didn''t think it would be noticeably yellow without other stones for comparison.

should I spend my money instead on an F, E or D colour stone?

 

[Nicrez]

I_like_Tiffanys, please idsregard the misinformation you hear, unless it comes from a reputable source, and is substantiated by evidence.

If you read that Elvis had Bigfoot's baby, would you believe it in the tabloids, or would you believe it if they showed a tape of the live birth on TV with DNA evidence?

I personally would love to see the tape...

Perry, How long have you been in the diamond/Jewelry industry? Also, how many of these "incorrectly" graded stones have you personally observed? Do you have any pictures that you can post for us of these stones in different light conditions, or a copy of three independant appraisals on the same stone graded as NON-Florescent by GIA, or any video of the stones florescing in different light? Please scan anything and post it, so the readers can have some proof to your statements.

I personally would like to see the tape!

Ooh, last question Perry, but how did you know that I stated correctly the GIA grading light conditions?
What is your source that tells you they use such lighting?
Is there someone you know at the GIA lab in your area or someone from headquarters? I'd love to know...

 

[Libster]

Date: 11/4/2004 7:47:46 AM
Author: Nicrez
I_like_Tiffanys, please idsregard the misinformation you hear, unless it comes from a reputable source, and is substantiated by evidence.

If you read that Elvis had Bigfoot''s baby, would you believe it in the tabloids, or would you believe it if they showed a tape of the live birth on TV with DNA evidence?

I personally would love to see the tape...

Perry, How long have you been in the diamond/Jewelry industry? Also, how many of these ''incorrectly'' graded stones have you personally observed? Do you have any pictures that you can post for us of these stones in different light conditions, or a copy of three independant appraisals on the same stone graded as NON-Florescent by GIA, or any video of the stones florescing in different light? Please scan anything and post it, so the readers can have some proof to your statements.

I personally would like to see the tape!

Ooh, last question Perry, but how did you know that I stated correctly the GIA grading light conditions?
What is your source that tells you they use such lighting?
Is there someone you know at the GIA lab in your area or someone from headquarters? I''d love to know...

Nicerez, I''m counting on you for this answer...psssst I read your other thread

Sounds like a FUN career change and I''m

green with envy!!!

Good luck in your new adventure

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 11/4/2004 6:34:21 AM
Author: Paul-Antwerp

What Perry writes, is a serious exaggeration. OK, maybe your G might be an H, according to another grader, but it should not go any further.


Live long,

Given the price difference between an g and an h this isnt fraud?
It is in my book.

 

[dixxin]

I am planning to purchase a stone on Monday the proportions are below...


Depth 62.4

Table 57.1

Crown angle 34.9

Pavilion angle 40.9

culet 0.4

2.08 G SI1

I am seeing yellow sparkles on the facets but was told that it''s dispersion I am seeing... after reading this thread I am concern about the colour.. Is it yellow in the stone or dispersion..?? Will a E colour stone cut to the same proportion show yellow too??

 

[dixxin]

GIA cert shows no fluor too... for what that''s worth..=P

 

[elepri]

Mine is an H and looks perfectly white in most lighting. In my apartment with no lights on, it's very white. When it's dark outside and and i turn the lights on, i notice a slightly warm tint to it. So i figure it's the electric bulbs but it drove me nuts for a while too. I notice it on the subway too; in a car with gray seats, it's perfectly white, but in a car with orange seats, it's kind of warmish again. But then my friend's E does the same thing. So i guess i'm okay.

 

[reena]

good--i feel better! i was thinking the same thing as paul--on occassion (like when im wearing my new pumpkin orange jacket) it picks up so much tint that it has to be the environment and not the stone. painting the walls seems a good idea . . . except that i might get in trouble doing that in the hotel!

 

[Nicrez]

Dear all, just spoke to someone who had been grading at GIA for the past 20 years. He says that the lighting conditions are NOT and different than 2 years ago. As a matter of fact they have not changed AT ALL, including the color and manufacturer of the light bulbs in those 20 years he has been grading... same everything.

As for not showing florescence, there are some grades of stones FL that are SO minute that they are not written as faint, since they take totally unique conditions to see, and again it is graded by HUMAN eyes (5 people), so if they all agree that it's barely visible, even less than Faint, then frankly I trust the people who grade 1 stone every 10 minutes, every single day for 8 hours, every weekday for several years... I trust they have seen LOTS of stones, unlike others who have probably never seen more than 2 at a time... also to be a GIA grader, they require you to have a GG degree as well as 4 years of an Earth Science or Minerology undergrad degree. Not a Joe Schmoe off the street...

Before disparaging any lab or method, please have SOME information to back up your statement. Ignorance of something can make more people follow an incorrect statement, and it's harder to help people understand the facts, once they have junk in their head, going against the facts...

I repeat, GIA has used the SAME consistent Daylight lighting for OVER 20 years, and possibly even past that. I have confirmed that there has been no change, and if there was, don't you think there would have been more written on this is Gemology publications? I have read not a peep, unless someone can send some articles....

 

[moremoremore]

Hey Nicrez- 5 people grade every stone??? Interesting! I didn''t know that!!!

 

[Nicrez]

Yup, that''s why it takes a while to get a stone back from GIA...

gotta get back to class!!

 

[Rhino]

Date: 11/3/2004 8:29

2 PM
Author: Hest88
Are you sure it''s not just a matter of incandescent lighting? In other words, is it an *indoor* problem or merely a problem in your house as opposed to in an office or store, etc. Our regular light bulbs do give off a yellowish light.

Just browsing this thread. I firmlly believe it is the lighting in the house. Incandescent lighting makes diamonds look off color (ie. tinted). Even if you were to put a D color under those lights you''d see the same phenomena.