From Tiffanys to Vintage, am I Crazy?!

[sharonp]

Thanks everyone. The price is for the diamond and the setting. The diamond is a vintage diamond I think from the early 1900s and is 3.64 MN SI2 Elongated Cushion cut, which I don't think modern cuts really make anymore. The setting is a new setting, but a vintage style to match the diamond.

I can get an EGL certification, because they can do it without removing the stone from the setting.
(Worthless for value setting, GIA grades only loose stones table down)

If I want the GIA, it would have to be if I'm buying it and not a condition of sale, as GIA generally gives low rating to vintage diamonds anyway.

Get it in writing(and signed by owner of the store), vendor pays for the GIA report. You don't care if they call it a Cushion Brilliant not an antique, or the cut grade(shouldn't have one), symmetry or polish.

If it comes back worse than SI2, and/or below P color than its eligible for a 100% refund and vendor pays for the GIA report. If it comes back SI2 or higher and O/P or higher you pay for the report and keep the stone.

If the vendor is not willing to agree to this run away as they already know its not going to be graded well by GIA-GTL and they are not representing it fairly.

The seller is generally well regarded on this forum for vintage style rings.

Who is the seller?

 

[JDDN]

I just went through the whole thread and something seems off about all this. Will you share with us who the seller is? I think 30K is a bit steep, even with the setting included in the price. That and as many others have said....you have no idea what the stone is worth so you are buying blind! That seems crazy to me given the 30K price tag. You need a solid 30 day return policy and it needs to include returning the ring for 100% money back EVEN if you unmount the stone (if you are getting it graded by GIA). And actually I would try to negotiate that the grading is not included in the 30 day return period in case GIA takes an unusually long time.

 

[MollyMalone]

When you say GIA gives a low rating to vintage diamonds, are you referring to color rating? GIA has the OMB classification for antique cushions that meet certain parameters: https://www.pricescope.com/journal/new_gia_and_agsl_naming_conventions_cushion_cut_diamonds

Think the vendor told our OP that because stones which don't meet GIA's criteria for its Old Mine, or Old European, Brilliant designation are graded for cut -- and (no surprise) fare poorly in that regard. Here's a spring 2014 article from National Jeweler that is an interesting follow-up to the 2010 PS piece you linked:
http://www.nationaljeweler.com/diamonds-gems/grading/1070-the-ongoing-debate-over-old-cuts

I've seen some AGS reports for stones that AGS labeled as Old Mine that would not qualify for GIA's Old Mine Brilliant designation.

 

[Niel]

I just went through the whole thread and something seems off about all this. Will you share with us who the seller is? I think 30K is a bit steep, even with the setting included in the price. That and as many others have said....you have no idea what the stone is worth so you are buying blind! That seems crazy to me given the 30K price tag. You need a solid 30 day return policy and it needs to include returning the ring for 100% money back EVEN if you unmount the stone (if you are getting it graded by GIA). And actually I would try to negotiate that the grading is not included in the 30 day return period in case GIA takes an unusually long time.

I guess but he doesn't seem to want to tell, I think part of the "my girlfriend will see this" thing . but think of an old PS favorite wgo charges say to much for antique style settings. I went to their website they have a very similar setting.

 

[MollyMalone]

techguy, despite what some others here have said, I think it's unrealistic to expect the vendor is going to dismantle the ring in order to send a loose center stone to GIA before you decide whether to purchase it. Presumably, the vendor thinks s/he is going to be able to sell the ring at the asking price, or close to it, without pulling the stone.

Have you nailed down the vendor's return policy? (if you've already told us here, I missed it & apologize for asking for the info again) I.e., is it an unconditional, full refund if returned within X number of days, so that you at least could have a credentialed independent appraiser, who knows old cuts-keeps up on their market value, assess the ring.

 

[JDDN]

I was initially looking at very standard timeless engagement rings such as what Tiffany carries in the ~$30k range for my girlfriend. After going to a few stores, my girlfriend fell in love with vintage/style rings and one ring in particular. It's from a store that seems to have a good rep in the vintage space, but I'm still new to how vintage works.

Because the ring/diamond is unique, I don't want to wait too long as it may be tough to find a similar one. The jeweler doesn't have it GIA certified, but he can do it once I buy it, but he says for vintage diamonds it's not really necessary. It's a 3.5 carrot M/N color in a I2/SI2 for around $30k. Does that seem decent for a ring like this?

Can you at least ask what the return policy is if he does this and if he'll adjust the price if it comes back a lower clarity and color?

Edit to say....wondering if none of this matters as you (the OP) may be paying for the name....Just a thought....


Niel - Yes, I think you're right. In fact there are several other identical rings only with smaller elongated cushions on the site.

 

[sharonp]

When you say GIA gives a low rating to vintage diamonds, are you referring to color rating? GIA has the OMB classification for antique cushions that meet certain parameters: https://www.pricescope.com/journal/new_gia_and_agsl_naming_conventions_cushion_cut_diamonds

Think the vendor told our OP that because stones which don't meet GIA's criteria for its Old Mine, or Old European, Brilliant designation are graded for cut -- and (no surprise) fare poorly in that regard. Here's a spring 2014 article from National Jeweler that is an interesting follow-up to the 2010 PS piece you linked:
http://www.nationaljeweler.com/diamonds-gems/grading/1070-the-ongoing-debate-over-old-cuts
This article is only about changes to Round outline shaped diamonds no changes to cushions.

I've seen some AGS reports for stones that AGS labeled as Old Mine that would not qualify for GIA's Old Mine Brilliant designation.

Antique dealers want to "romance" the stone it helps sell them so they want the old designations on the grading report which GIA-GTL with its arbitrary criteria may not always oblige and a lot of antiques with larger tables and smaller sized culets wouldn't get the description Old Mine Brilliant on the grading report no matter how old they look. Many Antique dealers claim this reason for why they won't submit antique stones to GIA-GTL.

However they could send them to AGSL and get the name Old Mine Cut if it is determined they truly look like they were cut in the 1900s, but still these dealers don't send them there either. I am pretty sure they like the softer color and clarity grading provided by EGL or IGI. The outline shape name on the grading report doesn't affect the market price as their isn't a premium for genuine antiques.

 

[sharonp]

techguy, despite what some others here have said, I think it's unrealistic to expect the vendor is going to dismantle the ring in order to send a loose center stone to GIA before you decide whether to purchase it. Presumably, the vendor thinks s/he is going to be able to sell the ring at the asking price, or close to it, without pulling the stone.

Yes it very well might not be accepted, but if they want to sell what appears to be an overpriced 30k ring, unsetting the stone and sending it to GIA-GTL might be okay if the customer buys it first and the refund terms are similar to what I've posted above.

Have you nailed down the vendor's return policy? (if you've already told us here, I missed it & apologize for asking for the info again) I.e., is it an unconditional, full refund if returned within X number of days, so that you at least could have a credentialed independent appraiser, who knows old cuts-keeps up on their market value, assess the ring.

+1 Thats not a bad idea as well someone like David Atlas or Neil Beatty, but I'd ask them both before going through all the trouble if the true grade is R/S and an I1 or I2 could the diamond alone be worth anything close to 25k antique or not, you may not want to go through all the hassle and expense.

 

[techguy89]

So the return policy is 11 days and exchange only. No cash refund. And the sale will not be contingent on whether the GIA cert comes back as lower.

 

[sharonp]

So the return policy is 11 days and exchange only. No cash refund. And the sale will not be contingent on whether the GIA cert comes back as lower.

Then RUN away fast, and I never heard of any PS vendor with such unfavorable consumer terms. Please do tell us who this vendor is.

 

[MollyMalone]

So the return policy is 11 days and exchange only. No cash refund. And the sale will not be contingent on whether the GIA cert comes back as lower.

Well, that info is a deal breaker! Onwards and upwards!

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Total dealbreaker. Never buy diamond jewelry without an unconditional return period with full refund.

That ring is WAY overpriced. Plus, it is the first antique ring she has seen. And you know what? There are many, many more out there with accurate grading, probably better cut, color, and clarity. It would have been a major mistake to just buy that ring when the quality of the diamond was very questionable for the price.

Here's a newly cut elongated antique cushion with ideal cut, accurate grading, VS2 clarity, N color for $26k plus maybe $4k for a custom setting similar to the one she liked.

http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond-search/3.00-Cushion-I-AGS-N-VS2-diamond-stock-12242-cert-104071307002

The one you were looking at is worth a LOT less than $26k if it is SI2 or I1 or I2, I can promise you that.

 

[MMtwo]

+1
run, don't walk.

 

[techguy89]

Thanks everyone. I think you all saved me a great deal of headache and anxiety. I talked to my girlfriend and she's open to other options. The main thing she liked was the shape of the diamond, which is an antique style elongated cushion cut.

I've found two modern diamonds of similar shape on BlueNile. I'm still doing my research and learning but any thoughts on these?

http://www.bluenile.com/diamond-details/LD05414054 and http://www.bluenile.com/diamond-details/LD06821093

She actually now likes this setting as well - http://www.bluenile.com/build-your-own-ring/scalloped-pave-diamond-engagement-ring-platinum_33601

 

[MollyMalone]

When you say GIA gives a low rating to vintage diamonds, are you referring to color rating? GIA has the OMB classification for antique cushions that meet certain parameters: https://www.pricescope.com/journal/new_gia_and_agsl_naming_conventions_cushion_cut_diamonds

Think the vendor told our OP that because stones which don't meet GIA's criteria for its Old Mine, or Old European, Brilliant designation are graded for cut -- and (no surprise) fare poorly in that regard. Here's a spring 2014 article from National Jeweler that is an interesting follow-up to the 2010 PS piece you linked:
http://www.nationaljeweler.com/diamonds-gems/grading/1070-the-ongoing-debate-over-old-cuts
This article is only about changes to Round outline shaped diamonds no changes to cushions.
Good grief. I linked the article because it offers an interesting discussion, with various viewpoints, of why GIA's parameters have not met with universal acclaim & shows how the debate/dialogue over nomenclature, designation has continued in the years since the 2010 PS article appeared.
I've seen some AGS reports for stones that AGS labeled as Old Mine that would not qualify for GIA's Old Mine Brilliant designation.

Antique dealers want to "romance" the stone it helps sell them so they want the old designations on the grading report which GIA-GTL with its arbitrary criteria may not always oblige * * * However they could send them to AGSL and get the name Old Mine [ ] if it is determined they truly look like they were cut in the 1900s * * *

Oh please share the link to your reference source that sheds light on how AGSL determines that a stone "truly look like [one] cut in the 1900s [sic]" -- I'm sure I'm not the only one who's curious & my Google searches have yielded nothing useful (I've trawled the Internet several times in the past couple of years looking for it without success ).

Back to you, techguy! Have you explored Good Old Gold's web site; in her last post, diamondseeker linked to a stone there she thought you might like. GOG offers more aids-tools for online shoppers than Blue Nile. BN's return-refund policies are fine, but being able to minimize returns is a feature that's important to many people. Alas, those two BN cushions have nothing but the GIA report posted.

James Allen is another vendor who sometimes has had what you two are wishing for.

 

[Niel]

Thanks everyone. I think you all saved me a great deal of headache and anxiety. I talked to my girlfriend and she's open to other options. The main thing she liked was the shape of the diamond, which is an antique style elongated cushion cut.

I've found two modern diamonds of similar shape on BlueNile. I'm still doing my research and learning but any thoughts on these?

http://www.bluenile.com/diamond-details/LD05414054 and http://www.bluenile.com/diamond-details/LD06821093

She actually now likes this setting as well - http://www.bluenile.com/build-your-own-ring/scalloped-pave-diamond-engagement-ring-platinum_33601

I'm glad you're looking at that LD05414054 I suggested you look into. Thing about it is, based on the info they provide there is only so much we can know. I suspect it's an antique cut, but we need photos of it to be sure as well as tell how it performs. Also, its a strong blue florescence. Not bad if she's fine with that, but you'll need to ask them if it gets hazy. They do that but rarely. In my opinion the next step you need to do is ask them if they can get you a photo and about the florescence I would first ask via the chat function, but I suspect they will tell you you need to give them a ring.

 

[MMtwo]

Crisis averted! IMHO, You made a good choice to walk away, you really did!
I love that August Vintage Cushion.

 

[Haven]

Okay, I'm glad to see you are looking elsewhere. Good luck with your search, I can't wait to see what you find!

 

[Niel]

I wonder if she'd like this?
http://www.jewelsbygrace.com/new-additions/2-22ct-antique-oval-cut-diamond-gia-g-vs2#.VwhvqBkpBnE

 

[Niel]

I wonder how much this is

https://leonmege.com/portfolio/elite-diamonds/gia-3-02-true-antique-cushion-h-vs2-006609-detail

 

[MMtwo]

That Leon Mege cushion is amazing.

 

[Tekate]

Techguy, I'm no authority like some of the long-term posters, but I DO know you should not buy a diamond with this type of warranty.

 

[techguy89]

Thanks again everyone for the help. I think I've found an option I like. Details are here

[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/found-an-old-mine-cushion-stone-feedback-please.223360/#post-4039588']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/found-an-old-mine-cushion-stone-feedback-please.223360/#post-4039588[/URL]