Freedom of Speech and Freedom of Religion

[chrono]

The first dollar was a coin, beautifully designed by Ben Franklin, that did not say, "in god we trust", but rather, "Mind Your Business"!!

Hear, hear!

 

[packrat]

Reminds me of the video on youtube of the little girl trying to buckle her car seat. "worry about yourself. you worry about yourself"

 

[JaneSmith]

I wrote replies to some topics raised in a thread in Hangout on the SCOTUS ruling on same-sex marriage, but I think those topics are more applicable to this thread, so I will repost them here.
A claim was made in that thread that the church does not directly influence politics. This is patently false. Churches are directly influencing politics with Pulpit Freedom Sunday.
http://www.alliancedefendingfreedom.org/pulpitfreedom

"Rogue pastors who endorse from tax-exempt pulpits are playing dirty pool. Such an abuse creates an unfair election advantage. Donations to politicians are not tax-deductible, but donations to churches are. Imagine if tax-exempt churches — which don't have to file financial returns with the government like all other 501(c)(3) groups must — were allowed to openly engage in partisan politics? Church congregations could become political machines, and political donations could be 'money laundered' through tax-deductible church contributions," Gaylor warned.

FFRF Co-President Dan Barker added, "Pastors are free to endorse from the pulpit, but then their churches need to give up their tax exemption."

http://ffrf.org/news/news-releases/item/21468-pulpit-freedom-sunday-crosses-legal-ethical-line

Another topic that was raised was the Hobby Lobby ruling. Not only are corporations people whose political donations are free speech, they are religious people who can discriminate according to their religion.
I do not respect religious beliefs that are bigoted and oppressive. I respect the right for people to believe whatever they want as long as the actions taken based on those beliefs are legal and do not hurt anyone.

An employer should provide salary/wages and benefits to employees. If one of those benefits is health care, the employer should not know what the health care dollars are used for any more than they should know what the salary dollars are used for.

Thanks to SCOTUS, corporations are people, and can now they can impose their religious beliefs on others. These 'religious' corporations can now discriminate against female employees in a way they cannot against male employees by refusing to cover gender specific health care.

The Green's (family that owns Hobby Lobby and brought this case to the courts) entire beef is that contraceptives are abortifacients. They aren't, but science doesn't seem to concern the SCOTUS.
http://rhrealitycheck.org/article/2014/06/19/hobby-lobbys-owners-may-sincerely-believe-emergency-contraceptives-cause-abortion-wrong/
This ruling means that it doesn't matter if your claims aren't based on facts, you simply point to this terrible precedent.

Even though the Hobby Lobby ruling was about emergency contraception and IUD's, the SCOTUS clarified that religious corporations can claim religious objections to all contraceptives.
http://news.yahoo.com/justices-act-other-health-law-mandate-cases-133633160--politics.html?soc_src=mediacontentstory

Now we have the door open to religious people wanting to be able to legally discriminate against LGBT people.
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/religious-groups-lgbt-hiring-hobby-lobby

We also have religious institutions wanting to legally oppose and crush worker's unions.
http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/hobby-lobby-workplace-unionization

Despite the fact that their religious beliefs aren't germane with actual religious teachings and dogma.
http://uscivilliberties.org/cases/4221-nlrb-v-catholic-bishop-of-chicago-440-us-490-1979.html
But SCOTUS just ruled that you don't have to have any evidence supporting your religious claims, you just have to have a faith.

And lastly, we have the example of Wheaton College, who just straight up doesn't want a person with a uterus to have access to contraceptives at all, even if the insurance company pays instead of the College. Wheaton College and 122 others.
The three female SCOTUS judges have something excellent to say about that.
http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/sotomayor-blistering-dissent-contraception-case

Hobby Lobby has succeeded in legislating their religious beliefs so everyone must follow.
They are also paving the way for other religions to legally discriminate.
Must keep kosher to work here?
Must wear a hijab to work here?
Must be vegetarian to work here?

I can't boycott Hobby Lobby because I don't shop there anyway. But I can boycott Eden Organics. Because as much as I like their delicious products, I like the right to bodily autonomy and basic healthcare more.

 

[smitcompton]

Hi Jane,

I will only discuss what I know a little about. Yes, Wheaton College. It has always been a fundamental based Christian school. Before you are admitted you must sign a pledge that you will not have sex(abstinence), you will not drink and you will not smoke. They still teach Creationism and only recently allowed a guest lecturer to speak to the students about evolution. This was several years back.

Parents love this school as they feel their children are in a safe environment. I understand its an academically good school(except for evolution) and is private. These policies have been forever. Why should they have to have birth-control. Frankly, its an expensive school and if parents and kid want something else, they ought not apply here.

I support birth control and abortion, but I do think this is a freedom of religion issue. Frankly, the kids are nice kids and I have never heard of them causing problems.


Annette

 

[JaneSmith]

The thing with Wheaton College, and the others, is that they want to keep their students from accessing birth control at all, even if the students own insurance covers it. That is crap.
I'm not particularly a fan of this argument, but it seems to apply here, so here it is. Birth control isn't always used to prevent pregnancy. It is used to regulate periods, it is used to skip periods, it is used to stop periods all together. The College can't take away a needed medicine from its students.

And I'm quite sure the parents love the school where their children won't have exposure to science or any different ideas that don't support their ideology and worldview.

 

[smitcompton]

Hi,


I think one of the funniest things is , no matter what, people ignore that vaginal sex is not the only way a couple make love. And when people talk about abstaining from sex they forget the most women have a reg cycle and they only have to abstain for a week. There are always condoms.

Taylor Univ in Indiania has the same specs. I personally know several generations of folk who went there. Same as Wheaton College. No-one came home pregnant, all were happy, What the school expects and what students do is not my business. I really do respect their rights. What is impressive in the end is the nice kids. My impression is any one I have met, is not an "entitled" kid and does not act it.
You have to take the totality of a thing, not just a small part. Maybe we could conduct a survey as to how they do it(the kids). Other schools may learn something.

Annette

The lecturer on evolution was brought in because the students requested it. Notice I say requested it, not demanded it.

 

[JaneSmith]

You speak of alternatives to PIV sex, using condoms, and allude to abstaining from PIV sex during menstruation as a means of preventing pregnancy. I'm pretty sure that abstinence pledge you mentioned (two posts back) that the students have to sign puts the kibosh on all of these practices. Also, pregnancy can occur from sex during a period.
I really don't care how nice you think the students from Wheaton are. I take issue with the College's religiously motivated grossly anti-women and anti-LGBT policies.

Wheaton has now opted to revoke all student health insurance in a spiteful move that guarantees that they will not, however tangentially, provide anyone with access to reproductive healthcare and birth control.
http://thinkprogress.org/health/2015/07/29/3685475/wheaton-student-health-insurance/
What is brutally ironic is that the College used to provide these services, but flipped their lid when the ACA came along.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2012/08/08/christian-college-provided-emergency-contraception-to-employees-but-they-only-got-mad-when-obama-mandated-it/
Earlier this month Wheaton lost a chaplain who quit because she could no longer work in such a homophobic environment. This woman is a lesbian and a devout Christian.
Her words:"The fire I’ve come under (publicly and privately) as I’ve sought to live into the traditional ethic causes me to question whether this is about genuinely held beliefs or straight up homophobia. I say this with nothing but sadness: the kind of discrimination my friends and I have experienced as celibate gays makes me lean toward the latter."
http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2015/07/14/3680501/wheaton-college-chaplain-marriage-equality/

I hope that the only thing that other schools learn from Wheaton and their ilk is how not to be.

 

[bludiva]

We talk about religious freedom, but I was born into a Muslim family. Can you imagine my father’s reaction when I tell him that I am closer in spirit to Christianity? I don’t know what I should do.

There's a lot of family expectation, culture, pride wrapped up in religion. I was born into a religious family and that religion doesn't align well with my personal beliefs either... it's a hard call because following your spiritual inclination can create a rift but not following it feels like living a lie. Funny enough my parents lost their religion as they aged so a lot of that tension was more about control than belief imho.

 

[kenny]

We talk about religious freedom, but I was born into a Muslim family. Can you imagine my father’s reaction when I tell him that I am closer in spirit to Christianity? I don’t know what I should do.

Please research this topic very carefully before considering what and whether to reveal anything to your father/brothers.
I'd look into the specific country and religion of your family.

In some cultures they feel so strongly about these things that they may carry out what they call (and somehow consider to be) an honor killing to defend the family's honor, or their place in heaven, or something.
I'd research if there are support organizations that can assist you or give you advice or provide additional resources.

This can get scary, and I'm sorry to say this all may all be much more ominous and dangerous if you are a woman.

 

[kenny]

I googled around a bit and felt an obligation to post this ...
The Koran, Islam's holy book, calls for the death penalty for members who leave Islam.
Just a little something to keep in mind.

Apostasy in Islam - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Snip:
Apostasy in Islam (Arabic: ردة, riddah or ارتداد, irtidād) is commonly defined as the abandonment of Islam by a Muslim, in thought, word, or through deed. An apostate from Islam is referred to by using the Arabic and Islamic term murtād (مرتدّ).[1][2][3][4][5] It includes not only explicit renunciations of the Islamic faith by converting to another religion[1] or abandoning religion altogether,[1][6][7] but also blasphemy or heresy,[8]through any action or utterance which implies unbelief, including those who deny a "fundamental tenet or creed" of Islam.[9]

While classical Islamic jurisprudence calls for the death penalty of those who refuse to repent of apostasy from Islam,[10] the definition of this act and whether and how it should be punished, are disputed among Islamic scholars[11][7][12] and strongly opposed by Muslim and Non-Muslim supporters of the universal human right to freedom of faith.[13][14][Note 1]

 

[Lookinagain]

We talk about religious freedom, but I was born into a Muslim family. Can you imagine my father’s reaction when I tell him that I am closer in spirit to Christianity? I don’t know what I should do.

Assuming you are an adult, do you really feel the need to tell him? some things are often best left unsaid.

 

[yssie]

I googled around a bit and felt an obligation to post this ...
The Koran, Islam's holy book, calls for the death penalty for members who leave Islam.
Just a little something to keep in mind.

Apostasy in Islam - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Snip:
Apostasy in Islam (Arabic: ردة, riddah or ارتداد, irtidād) is commonly defined as the abandonment of Islam by a Muslim, in thought, word, or through deed. An apostate from Islam is referred to by using the Arabic and Islamic term murtād (مرتدّ).[1][2][3][4][5] It includes not only explicit renunciations of the Islamic faith by converting to another religion[1] or abandoning religion altogether,[1][6][7] but also blasphemy or heresy,[8]through any action or utterance which implies unbelief, including those who deny a "fundamental tenet or creed" of Islam.[9]

While classical Islamic jurisprudence calls for the death penalty of those who refuse to repent of apostasy from Islam,[10] the definition of this act and whether and how it should be punished, are disputed among Islamic scholars[11][7][12] and strongly opposed by Muslim and Non-Muslim supporters of the universal human right to freedom of faith.[13][14][Note 1]

Oh c'mon Kenny.
Here's what Deuteronomy has to say about leaving the faith (13:6-9):
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy 13:6-9&version=NIV
But we aren't expecting modern Christians to go 'round killing each other.
Why hold only followers of Islam to archaic standards?

 

[smitcompton]

Hi

No, we don't expect Christians to kill, as the time in question in Deuteronomy was before Christianity was established. It has never required death as a penalty for leaving the faith. However, that said, there have been times that Humans made that degree, but to my knowledge it has never been part of the Christian Bible.
, Deuteronomy is in the times of the Jewish Kings.

Annette

I agree, there is no reason to tell your family. You are a grown-up

 

[ItsMainelyYou]

Oh c'mon Kenny.
Here's what Deuteronomy has to say about leaving the faith (13:6-9):
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy 13:6-9&version=NIV
But we aren't expecting modern Christians to go 'round killing each other.
Why hold only followers of Islam to archaic standards?

Unfortunately thousands of women die this way all over the world. It falls under the umbrella of honor killing and it's a very real and present danger to consider.

Female Honor Killing: The Role of Low Socio-Economic Status and Rapid Modernization - PubMed

Female honor killing is a particular form of femicide, where the killing of a woman is perpetrated by a member or members of her family who do not approve of her social behavior in general and her sexual behavior in particular. The study of female honor killing tends to focus on a cultural...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

OP: If it isn't absolutely necessary, keep it to yourself and your god.

 

[TooPatient]

Unfortunately thousands of women die this way all over the world. It falls under the umbrella of honor killing and it's a very real and present danger to consider.

Female Honor Killing: The Role of Low Socio-Economic Status and Rapid Modernization - PubMed

Female honor killing is a particular form of femicide, where the killing of a woman is perpetrated by a member or members of her family who do not approve of her social behavior in general and her sexual behavior in particular. The study of female honor killing tends to focus on a cultural...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

OP: If it isn't absolutely necessary, keep it to yourself and your god.

Sadly, this is not an unheard of thing. Saw an article on a trial starting in the US.

https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/ya...nor-killings-teen-daughters-sarah-amina-2008/

 

[yssie]

Well okay then

 

[ItsMainelyYou]

Well okay then

I felt exactly the same when I found out. It's just awful, isn't it?

 

[Calliecake]

I just read the article posted above. OMG how awful.

 

[Daisys and Diamonds]

Sadly, this is not an unheard of thing. Saw an article on a trial starting in the US.

https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/ya...nor-killings-teen-daughters-sarah-amina-2008/

this makes the news because it happened in the west
but saddly woman and girls are persecuted in other parts of the world where woman are viewed as proprty to be ruled over by their male relatives

i know saddly some people don't have great fathers
but a father killing his daughter is just abhorrent

 

[AGBF]

We talk about religious freedom, but I was born into a Muslim family. Can you imagine my father’s reaction when I tell him that I am closer in spirit to Christianity? I don’t know what I should do.

Religious freedom in the United States means that the law allows people to believe in a religion or not. (I used to teach the exact wording needed for the citizenship test.) It does not mean that there will be no social or other personal consequences in your life for personal decisions you make. The government cannot control how your parents, friends, or relatives feel about the choices you make about where to worship, whom to marry, and so forth.

In the case you mentioned you said, "Talk about religious freedom", then asked "What should I do?" In my opinion you have legal freedom to worship as you please. Whether you want to worship in a faith other than your that of your family is one only you can make. You must weigh whether you are drawn enough to another faith or pulled away enough from from your original faith to make a break despite what it will do to your relationship with your family, which you clearly value.

This country gives you a choice, but it does not make a choice painless.

 

[doberman]

In my experience, religion has precious little to do with freedom, unless it's the freedom to dictate how other people should live their lives. As I watch this country morphing into a theocracy I am in despair.

 

[smitcompton]

Hi,

AGBF-- I have been thinking about you lately. I hoped you would return just so I could tell you that I think you have been more "right: about how events would proceed from the beginning than I ever was. I used to feel you were too harsh in thinking that was fascism raising its ugly head among us, You were so on target. You saw it much clearer than I did. My mind would not go that far. So, in as much , as now I can see, I want to congratulate you on your good thinking. I did learn from that small group, and am happy to have shared time with those people.

I wish you the best. I hope you are all OK in Conn.
I also extend my respect to you
Best Regard,
Annette

 

[AGBF]

Good to see you, Annette! You are always with it.

Hugs,
Deb

 

[Calliecake]

Thinking of you @smitcompton, @Demon, @doberman, @AGBF,

Today turned out to be a pretty good day! I hope they found what they were looking for.

 

[Demon]

Me too @Calliecake. Amazing day!

 

[Calliecake]

@Lookinagain, I’m sorry I accidentally left you off the above post. I was thinking of you and @Tekate too.

 

[Lookinagain]

@Lookinagain, I’m sorry I accidentally left you off the above post. I was thinking of you and @Tekate too.

no problem, i agreed with you anyway

 

[Demon]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1557881761224351748

 

[Lookinagain]

just hearing this on the news

 

[Calliecake]

Thinking of you @Tekate and really miss you here.