found clouds/inclusion tt r not present in the plot.

[DiamondPixie]

dear all,

after the fisheye diamond saga, i hit another problem again...

i've changed a jeweler and have seen a couple of 1.5 - 1.67 J/SI1 diamonds. All GIA report and all has comments under the comments section stating 'additional clouds are not shown'

Being a very particular person, i brought my watch loupe along with me to look at the diamonds. (loupe is 15x) after standing at the shop and scruntinising all the stones... (the jeweler left me alone to look at it, gave me some time)

for one particular 1.67 SI1 stone which i was interested in as it was rather eye clean(and has a rather clean plot with only one cloud and other crystals) i saw some other(??) clouds/whitish stuff that are not visible on the plot...

from the distant there are some reflections of the clouds on the stone. (i have perfect vision)


my question is:
1) is there really additional visible clouds? if there is and it is visible using a 15x loupe, why isnt plotted?
2) whatever "clouds' i saw, are those serveral reflections of a cloud? (that cloud was plotted)
3) is this not a 'honest' SI1 plot???
4) is it better to get a more messier SI1 plot?

thanks.
(i've got no pics as i've not bought the diamond)

 

[Lorelei]

Additional clouds not shown in the comments section of the report is not usually an issue, clouds which are plotted on the clarity map which are the reason a diamond is SI clarity might cause a loss of brilliance in some cases. Get an independant pro to check such a diamond if you are interested in it.

 

[stone-cold11]

Could also be reflections of the same cloud, note the location and shape. Best to get it independently appraised as Lorelei said.

 

[Ellen]

Date: 6/14/2009 4:43:28 AM
Author: Lorelei
Additional clouds not shown in the comments section of the report is not usually an issue, clouds which are plotted on the clarity map which are the reason a diamond is SI clarity might cause a loss of brilliance in some cases. Get an independant pro to check such a diamond if you are interested in it.

Right. And the reason labs don't put every single inclusion on the plot is because it would look extremely scary!

So they just put the grade makers on it. If these were all GIA stones, then they are "honest"plots. And also you could be seeing what Sc said about reflections, no way to know, so have a pro look at it.

It sounds like you found a better jeweler.

 

[diagem]

Since the subject is Clouds...., I learned an interesting point about GIA grading clouds recently...
When it comes to clouds that make the grade..., GIA is the softest!

Dealers purchase cloudy Diamonds that will earn an "Imperfect" grade at most labs (EGL/HRD etc...) and pass as an "SI" grade at GIA...

Be careful!

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 6/14/2009 10:07:47 AM
Author: DiaGem
Since the subject is Clouds...., I learned an interesting point about GIA grading clouds recently...
When it comes to clouds that make the grade..., GIA is the softest!

Dealers purchase cloudy Diamonds that will earn an ''Imperfect'' grade at most labs (EGL/HRD etc...) and pass as an ''SI'' grade at GIA...

Be careful!

Well worth knowing, thanks DG!

 

[Ellen]

Date: 6/14/2009 10:07:47 AM
Author: DiaGem
Since the subject is Clouds...., I learned an interesting point about GIA grading clouds recently...
When it comes to clouds that make the grade..., GIA is the softest!

Dealers purchase cloudy Diamonds that will earn an ''Imperfect'' grade at most labs (EGL/HRD etc...) and pass as an ''SI'' grade at GIA...

Be careful!

Interesting, can you share where you are getting this info from?

 

[diagem]

Date: 6/14/2009 10:14:05 AM
Author: Ellen

Date: 6/14/2009 10:07:47 AM
Author: DiaGem
Since the subject is Clouds...., I learned an interesting point about GIA grading clouds recently...
When it comes to clouds that make the grade..., GIA is the softest!

Dealers purchase cloudy Diamonds that will earn an ''Imperfect'' grade at most labs (EGL/HRD etc...) and pass as an ''SI'' grade at GIA...

Be careful!

Interesting, can you share where you are getting this info from?

Not to pinpoint..., but there is this niche in the industry being practiced regularly....

 

[John P]

Date: 6/14/2009 3:01:29 AM
Author:DiamondPixie

1) is there really additional visible clouds? if there is and it is visible using a 15x loupe, why isnt plotted?

Hi Pixie. The grader plots what is visible at 10X. The note about additional clouds seems in-keeping with what you saw.

4) is it better to get a more messier SI1 plot?

They are like snowflakes. I''ve seen "messy" SI plots that face up completely clean and "clean" SI plots where the inclusion is visible.

Something else to consider is the lighting under which you''re louping the diamond. Graders do this using darkfield (lighting from the side) and diffused light (reflected from the surface) to determine actual number, density, position, etc. While an experienced diamantaire might interpret these things in any environment it is possible you''re seeing a different "big picture" than the grader did by using 15X in potentially different lighting.

 

[DiamondPixie]

i have not bought the diamond, thus i cant bring it to an independent appraisal. the store is rather patient with me, allowin me to look thoroughly at the diamonds. i'm very embarass about it as i may not buy anything from them??? the clouds bother me now... not the proportions...

I think i experience like what john said, the messier plot SI diamonnd A seems more eye clean (no clouds) when looking at strong fluoroscent lights than the plot clean SI diamond B (seems to have clouds)... but when both are brought out to normal lighting situation the messier SI diamond A have visible black crystals, and the clean SI plot diamond B, looks totally eye clean, no clouds, no black dots etc... is it the lighting that cause the reflections?

Diamond B , cloud plotted was at the corner of the table, its oval... i cant see from the top, only when i view it at the side of the pavillon, it becomes visible.

the clouds i see seems to look like swirls. they do not like speckles of white blotches. more like small smoke swirls at the corners of the stone, not at the table. does this look ok?

these are all GIA stones... i'm interested in diamond B, but now the clouds are bothering me.. feel so sad as i cant get the best of both worlds...

 

[John P]

Date: 6/14/2009 10:16:56 PM
Author: DiamondPixie

these are all GIA stones... i'm interested in diamond B, but now the clouds are bothering me.. feel so sad as i cant get the best of both worlds...

Sure you can. Move up to VS.

But seriously... With no experience don't beat yourself up. Personally I would want to analyze the density of clouds present, among other things, and that's best done in darkfield which you probably don't even have available.

Will the seller allow you a week or even a few days with a full-refund guarantee - so you can take one or both of your targets to an independent appraiser? Many traditional stores are giving such refund periods; those with an "all sales final" mentality are extincting themselves. If the seller feels it's a good diamond for a good price he/she has nothing to lose by allowing you to make the purchase with the possible option of returning one or both.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 6/14/2009 11:26:19 PM
Author: John Pollard

Date: 6/14/2009 10:16:56 PM
Author: DiamondPixie

these are all GIA stones... i''m interested in diamond B, but now the clouds are bothering me.. feel so sad as i cant get the best of both worlds...

Sure you can. Move up to VS.

But seriously... With no experience don''t beat yourself up. Personally I would want to analyze the density of clouds present, among other things, and that''s best done in darkfield which you probably don''t even have available.

Will the seller allow you a week or even a few days with a full-refund guarantee - so you can take one or both of your targets to an independent appraiser? Many traditional stores are giving such refund periods; those with an ''all sales final'' mentality are extincting themselves. If the seller feels it''s a good diamond for a good price he/she has nothing to lose by allowing you to make the purchase with the possible option of returning one or both.

Ditto John. DP there are lots of diamonds out there, take your time and you will find the right one.

 

[DiamondPixie]

i understand that moving up to VS would means smaller carat for me... i''ve been trying to be hopeful that i could get a decent SI diamond eye clean... diamond B looks eye clean, no black dots whatever under normal lights. but then those strong flouroscent lights come in, it just looks a bit cloudy for me...not very cloudy but i''m such a particular person and its not hard for me to miss...

for some reasons... (please don''t scold me Lorelei) the 64% table appeals to me more (i know the fish eye risk but the girdle is thin)... which is what is holding me back from purchasing from this jeweler. this store do not have full cash refund, but if i do not like the diamond, i can change it to other products that they have which is of similar or higher value...

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 6/15/2009 6:27:34 AM
Author: DiamondPixie
i understand that moving up to VS would means smaller carat for me... i've been trying to be hopeful that i could get a decent SI diamond eye clean... diamond B looks eye clean, no black dots whatever under normal lights. but then those strong flouroscent lights come in, it just looks a bit cloudy for me...not very cloudy but i'm such a particular person and its not hard for me to miss...

for some reasons... (please don't scold me Lorelei) the 64% table appeals to me more (i know the fish eye risk but the girdle is thin)... which is what is holding me back from purchasing from this jeweler. this store do not have full cash refund, but if i do not like the diamond, i can change it to other products that they have which is of similar or higher value...

I know it is difficult but with a limited budget something has to give somewhere such as VS = smaller carat, larger could mean visible inclusions, its a trade off.

I don't scold so don't worry about that

- have you looked at this fish eye diamond in plain daylight without too much sun? If the store would let you do that I think it might be a good idea, that way you will get a more realistic view of it.

 

[Ellen]

Date: 6/15/2009 6:27:34 AM
Author: DiamondPixie
i understand that moving up to VS would means smaller carat for me... i''ve been trying to be hopeful that i could get a decent SI diamond eye clean... diamond B looks eye clean, no black dots whatever under normal lights. but then those strong flouroscent lights come in, it just looks a bit cloudy for me...not very cloudy but i''m such a particular person and its not hard for me to miss...

for some reasons... (please don''t scold me Lorelei) the 64% table appeals to me more (i know the fish eye risk but the girdle is thin)... which is what is holding me back from purchasing from this jeweler. this store do not have full cash refund, but if i do not like the diamond, i can change it to other products that they have which is of similar or higher value...

Cloudy as in, inclusion(s), or cloudy as in, the whole stone just seems less crystal clear? Under certain lighting (though it''s not really fluorescent, it''s certain spot lighting) my stone takes on a look that might be called cloudy. I''ve never come up with a good description of this look, but for lack of anything better, it almost seems like the stone has a "cottony" look inside, not crystal clear. Is that what you mean?

 

[DiamondPixie]

Hi,

Ellen, yes!!! its that cottony look in the diamond. I stood at the fluroscent light in the shop for a long time and keep trying to figure out what is that! the jeweler is rather patient with me and showed me the diamond at different lights. the cottony look only appear when it is exposed to strong flouroscent light... any idea why?

is it the multiple reflections of the cloud?

 

[Lorelei]

It is really hard to say what it is Pixie without seeing the stone....

 

[Ellen]

Date: 6/17/2009 4:58:03 AM
Author: DiamondPixie
Hi,

Ellen, yes!!! its that cottony look in the diamond. I stood at the fluroscent light in the shop for a long time and keep trying to figure out what is that! the jeweler is rather patient with me and showed me the diamond at different lights. the cottony look only appear when it is exposed to strong flouroscent light... any idea why?

is it the multiple reflections of the cloud?

I''m thinking maybe not. If we''re talking about the same thing (and that''s hard to say, but sounds like maybe), then it''s just a certain look the stone is taking on in certain lighting. My stone is very well cut, and a VS1, so it''s not inclusions in mine. It takes on many looks in many different lighting situations, that''s what a nicely cut stone will do. I''m hoping that''s why yours did it, that it''s the good cut of the stone, not the inclusions.

Can you get the stats from the report and post them here by chance?

 

[MoonRiver]

Hi ellen,

it sounds pretty interesting on how the stone takes on different look.

 

[Ellen]

Hi moon,

Yes, it is really interesting indeed. I've had this stone 3 years, and it still surprises me sometimes when I get it under a new/different lighting environment. I've often wished I could capture in pictures all the different looks it has, but they just can't translate to the camera, I've tried.

 

[DiamondPixie]

hi ellen,

i am going to visit the diamond today. yes it that cottony look. the specs seem good, i haven got the details. i will try to get it today... but the diamonds are SI1... not VS and they all have that "additional clouds are not shown comments" i wonder if it is the magnification of the "additional clouds'

by the way, any chance where by the jeweler when fixing the ring could have cause some feathers??? i need to resize my ring to size 2.75, so i wonder if it can damage the diamond...

Ellen u mention halo... but i wonder if it will go out of trend?? thanks.

**i am still tempted by the mayb fish eye diamond...

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 6/17/2009 10:51:33 PM
Author: DiamondPixie
hi ellen,

i am going to visit the diamond today. yes it that cottony look. the specs seem good, i haven got the details. i will try to get it today... but the diamonds are SI1... not VS and they all have that ''additional clouds are not shown comments'' i wonder if it is the magnification of the ''additional clouds''

by the way, any chance where by the jeweler when fixing the ring could have cause some feathers??? i need to resize my ring to size 2.75, so i wonder if it can damage the diamond...

Ellen u mention halo... but i wonder if it will go out of trend?? thanks.

**i am still tempted by the mayb fish eye diamond...

Pixie, do this. If you go back to see the fish eye diamond, see if the salesperson will let you look at it away from the store lights. I understand you are in a sunny area so see if you can look at it somewhere where there is less light. That would be a very useful exercise as it is likely to go dead the minute it is away from the store lights. If by some rare chance it looks ok then think long and hard whether you will be looking for a fish eye every 30 seconds if you buy it! You said things tend to bother you such as visible inclusions and so on, I just don''t want you to be so fixated on the diamond thinking.." is that the fish eye???" tilt the diamond some more ..." oh maybe not - whew!".....Catches diamond out of corner of eye " oh no! I think I saw it!!!!"......squints hard..." no....couldn''t have been..." and so on.

 

[Ellen]

Date: 6/17/2009 10:51:33 PM
Author: DiamondPixie
hi ellen,

i am going to visit the diamond today. yes it that cottony look. the specs seem good, i haven got the details. i will try to get it today... but the diamonds are SI1... not VS and they all have that ''additional clouds are not shown comments'' i wonder if it is the magnification of the ''additional clouds''

by the way, any chance where by the jeweler when fixing the ring could have cause some feathers??? i need to resize my ring to size 2.75, so i wonder if it can damage the diamond...

Ellen u mention halo... but i wonder if it will go out of trend?? thanks.

**i am still tempted by the mayb fish eye diamond...

No, it wouldn''t have anything to do with magnification. With mine, it''s just the light return behaving in a certain way under certain lighting. But if yours is doing the same thing (again, we don''t know foe sure) I would be more inclined to think it''s that instead of inclusions, especially if the stone looks clear in regular lighting, which I believe you said it did? Hopefully you can get all the stats, make sure you get the crown and pavilion angles!

And excuse me miss, you have a WHAT size finger?? 2.75? You could wear a 1 ct. and have it look huge!

Seriously though, with fingers that small, this stone you''re looking at would look fabulous, and big! (and no, jewelers don''t cause feathers, mother nature does)

As for halo''s, I don''t think in terms of trends. I have always been of the mind that I buy what I like, whether it''s "in style" or not. And I wear it as long as it please me.

Lorelei, lol!!

 

[DiamondPixie]

lorelei you are right... definitely that is the way i am. i think it will drive me nuts... i guess i have to be realistic... i went to see both diamonds today.

the 2.33 M diamond which i like... this time, it is another sales guy, the lady was not in. this sales person is not particularly pushy. he also admit that the table is large and it is odd...

but he did mention for the price i pay, i cant expect everything to be perfect and this price will satisfy a consumer who wants a big looking diamond without a hole in a pocket. but of course one has to give and take, cant expect it to sparkle like a HOF, but it does look big. He emphasize on what a consumer wan (some wants only D, some wants IF while some wants all Ex cut, others may just want the size) and being able to accept the diamond with the price i pay. because what i pay is what i get... this sales person is realistic i must say... i guess i will not be happy with that diamond... i asked him about the previous reserved diamond and if they will have more of those "normal" looking proportion diamond...he is also not sure. he recommend that i can wait around.

the 1.63 diamond that i wanted is still hanging around, poor sales guy (i think tough luck on him), he could see that i am so particular about the inclusions. but the stats are good, here are the stats

1.63
J/SI1
7.66 x 7.68 x 4.58
Cut: Very good
TD: 59.7%
T : 57%
Crown: 33
Pav: 40.4
Polish: VG
sym: Ex

OR

1.63
K/SI1
7.48 x 7.53 x 4.66
Cut: Very good
TD: 62.1%
T : 56%
Crown: 37
Pav: 40.2
Polish: VG
sym: Ex


i think the J color 1.63 is better? thanks...

 

[stone-cold11]

Actually I like the K better for a ring stone.

The J will have a better spread, but prone to obstruction issue, the darkening of the stone if you look a it too closely, less than 1 ft away. Probably going to be frequent with a ring stone, so not ideal. A better use for that will be as a pendant stone.

 

[Ellen]

I''ll be honest pixie, I''m not getting a warm fuzzy feeling about either. I personally wouldn''t buy one of these, but I am more into cut. I''m not sure what to tell you at this point....

Except you''d do a LOT better online.

 

[DiamondPixie]

hi stone cold... its too technical... i do not understand... can you explain??? thanks...i thought the HCA score for the J is better than the K? thanks.

 

[stone-cold11]

HCA score is not use as a selection criteria only rejection tool for stone scoring higher than 2.

 

[DiamondPixie]

Oh no ellen... are these that bad? i thought they scored well in the HCA? they are below 2... please do explain to me what is wrong with these 2 stones? i''ve not committed anything yet... so i''m still waiting around... please do explain, are the angles wrong??? thanks.

 

[stone-cold11]

The shallow pavilion angles of #2 couple with the normal crown angle means that most of the light being reflected will be coming from the direction of the observer. So if the observer is looking closely at the stone, he/she will be blocking out most of the source of the light that the stone is reflecting, throwing a shadow on the stone, and making it darken, loose life.

#1 stone, although it has a even shallower pavilion angle, when couple with the high crown angle means that the light source being reflected is not mainly from the observer, but from a wider range, so it will not have obstruction issue. What is more, because of the larger crown angle, this stone will exhibit more fire, returns more colored lights than a normal near tolk ideal cut. The only short coming of this kind of cut is that it will look slightly smaller for the same weight class because of the higher crown.

As a comparison, ideally, a 1.63c should have a face-up diameter of around 7.6mm.