Former Lawyers on PS???

[littlelysser]

I know I''m a former lawyer...anyone else?

I''d love to hear about why you stopped practicing and what you are now doing!

I''d also be interested in hearing about how you felt about the differences between law school and the actual practice of law.

 

[moremoremore]

I stopped in December after about 9 years....I hated going to court...and hated negotiating...it's really just that simple...the research and writing was awesome....I also hated the constant change of deadlines and getting OTSCs LOL....

So now I'm practicing "You want fries with that?" haha...I moved to a different state in December and haven't figured it out yet...

Yeah, and law school is NOTHING like the practice of law and doesn't prepare you one bit....they sould have more practical courses about the rules of civil procedure in the courts..and by that I mean day to day crap that's different for each county and court...

 

[littlelysser]

Interesting MMM - I saw your post on the 1L post, but I didn''t want to threadjack...

I quit this past December as well...After 7 years of practice. I pretty much hated everything about practicing law - other than the research and writing...

I''m still not sure on career number two...

Do you have any inclination what you want to do next?

I think I''m going to let my status go inactive this year, which is also kind of scary...

 

[Octavia]

Oh, I''m interested in hearing more from the two of you, and from anyone else who chimes in. I''m only a 2L, but I''m realizing more and more that while I love law school (and am definitely going to get the degree) the "life of a lawyer" is just not what I want. Government work appeals to me much more than big firm work, but even so, I just can''t picture myself being happy in it for the long-term. I''ve been trying to research some viable alternatives that offer the flexibility a "9-5 job" (any job, not just those in law) doesn''t allow for, and that use at least some of the skills I''m learning, but it''s hard. At least I''m not spending a lot of money on school, so I''ll be able to do something else if I want. I just don''t know what that something will be...

 

[panda08]

I''m nearing the end of my 8th year of practice. I don''t consider what I do as technically "practicing", as I am a research attorney for judges. I''ve been in private practice and totally HATED it. The $$$ was great but I wanted a life. I quit my last firm job without something else lined up. It was the most liberating feeling ever to basically tell them to take a hike. Now, I''ve found a good balance. The work doesn''t consume me and I can leave it at the office. I love not having to bill time, deal with opposing counsel, hand-hold clients, or stroke my partner''s ego. Many of my lawyer friends have either left the profession entirely or have gone in-house or government. The happiest lawyers I know are in government or in-house.

 

[littlelysser]

Hey there Panda and Octavia.

Octavia - I'm sure there are jobs out there that would work for you! And good on your for not going into major debt to do it. I am about 100k in student loan debt - ALL LAW SCHOOL. I get a pit of rage when I write my student loan check out each month. Sucks. But I really enjoyed law school, made amazing friends, and really had my intellectual ability validated. So that makes it all worth it. Right?? Right?????

Panda - I worked for two large international firms and then I clerked for an appellate court judge for almost three years. I was amazed at the fact that I took a 90k paycut without a second thought. But it was definitely a MUCH better gig - I was amazed at having my weekends back and actually being able to plan and TAKE a vacation...but I've found that clerkships can be sooo dodgy...

[Broad Sweeping Generalization Alert] I think it stems from the fact that most judges have worked at and usually made partner at large international law firms...and well, partners at those firms are often not too terribly kind to the secretaries and associates that work for them...and, in my experience, they also tend to be egomaniacs...And when they become judges it is almost like they have been given their very own kingdom of staff over which they can rule!

Although I liked working for my judge, he required that everyone refer to one another as Mr. Smith or Ms. Smith. The woman had to wear skirts. EVERY.SINGLE.DAY. And well, although he was never mean to me...he often made other clerks cry and was just kind of a jerk...

There are definitely some kind judges out there...but I tend to think they might the exception to some degree.

 

[akw94]

Date: 8/21/2008 5:28:05 PM
Author:littlelysser
I know I''m a former lawyer...anyone else?

I''d love to hear about why you stopped practicing and what you are now doing!

I''d also be interested in hearing about how you felt about the differences between law school and the actual practice of law.

Hi Littlelysser,
I just recently stopped practicing law. I stopped b/c I moved out of state. Sure, I could take the bar here but I doubt I will. I wasn''t satisfied with practicing. I was a criminal defense attorney so in the courtroom every day. While that didn''t work for me, I know that it is the only type of law I do have interest in. My problem with it is that it was too sad, too depressing. I worked with adults and then mainly juveniles for the last few years. I had been ready for a change for awhile and moving has given me an opportunity to find something new. I just moved a couple months ago so I haven''t figured out what to do quite yet. I''m seriously considering teaching but that means I have to get certified. That sucks! More school and more student loan debt. Like you, I have a ton of debt and already feel guilty about that since I''m no longer practicing.

Honestly, law school doesn''t prepare you at all for the actual practice of law. You''re learning about theory more than actual law. You have no feel for what the courtroom is like. You have no idea how to handle the practical issues of filing Answers, Motions or what questions to ask when on trial. I don''t find that it was very useful at all in my preparation.

So that''s my story!

 

[SarahLovesJS]

Can I thread-jack and ask a question to the former lawyers here? How hard are the government or "in-house" jobs to get? I want to go to law school, but I am not really interested in a firm job at all. I just want to make sure it''s doable.

 

[goldenstar]

Correct me if I''m wrong, but it seems that big firm lawyers and litigators from all types of firms are the ones who leave the practice of law most frequently.

I''m a new graduate and I''ve already worked in many different legal settings (before and during law school): for a solo practitioner, small firm, public interest firm, and government. The public interest firm was the most congenial office I''ve ever been in. The lawyers weren''t paid much, but they worked 9-5 or less and had very flexible hours. The work was extremely gratifying.

At the government job, my supervisor LOVED his work. It was so awesome to see.

I worry that the general public will see lawyers as a bunch of miserable people who hate their careers. I firmly believe that lawyers who are unhappy are either in the wrong area of practice or didn''t go to law school for the right reason, or weren''t "fully informed" (for the lack of a better word) when they decided to enroll.

I know I haven''t experienced the real world yet, but I''ve seen enough to know what I need to do to be happy. I took two years off after my Bachelor''s and I worked as a Legal Assistant. I know so much more about the every day practice of law than many of my classmates. If I hadn''t taken time off before law school, I would have been totally shocked about the reality of practice as compared to law school. This is part of why people end up being unhappy. If you know what you''re getting into when you enter law school, you''re much better off later.

I''m neither a lawyer nor former lawyer, but one thing I learned about the practice of law is that its a BUSINESS (private firms I mean). Billing clients, collecting fees, rainmaking...it can be STRESSFUL. Especially for small firms and solo practitioners. You never learn about that stuff in law school.

 

[panda08]

Date: 8/24/2008 9:18:46 PM
Author: SarahLovesJS
Can I thread-jack and ask a question to the former lawyers here? How hard are the government or ''in-house'' jobs to get? I want to go to law school, but I am not really interested in a firm job at all. I just want to make sure it''s doable.

It depends... I know, such a lawyer''s answer! If you want to be a deputy district attorney/assistant U.S. attorney or a state/federal public defender, many districts/counties will hire straight out of law school. However, you have to be prepared for a not so hot salary. But, my public defender friends are among the happiest because they really love their job. The positions on the federal side are very competitive so you generally have to graduate from a good school and in the top third or better in your class. If you want an in-house gig with a corporation, those jobs generally won''t hire straight out of law school because they want you to have some experience, preferably with a big firm in the relevant area of law. If you want to be a research attorney for judges, it depends on the county you want to practice in. Some counties will hire straight out of school while others, like mine, tend to favor attorneys with a number of years under their belt. Hope that helps!

 

[SarahLovesJS]

Date: 8/25/2008 10:40:51 PM
Author: panda08

Date: 8/24/2008 9:18:46 PM

Author: SarahLovesJS

Can I thread-jack and ask a question to the former lawyers here? How hard are the government or ''in-house'' jobs to get? I want to go to law school, but I am not really interested in a firm job at all. I just want to make sure it''s doable.

It depends... I know, such a lawyer''s answer! If you want to be a deputy district attorney/assistant U.S. attorney or a state/federal public defender, many districts/counties will hire straight out of law school. However, you have to be prepared for a not so hot salary. But, my public defender friends are among the happiest because they really love their job. The positions on the federal side are very competitive so you generally have to graduate from a good school and in the top third or better in your class. If you want an in-house gig with a corporation, those jobs generally won''t hire straight out of law school because they want you to have some experience, preferably with a big firm in the relevant area of law. If you want to be a research attorney for judges, it depends on the county you want to practice in. Some counties will hire straight out of school while others, like mine, tend to favor attorneys with a number of years under their belt. Hope that helps!

Panda sorry for taking so long to respond! I just wanted to say thank you and your answers do def. help!

 

[littlelysser]

Golden - I disagree with your statement that lawyers are unhappy because they went to law school for the wrong reasons, didn''t research it, or are practicing in the wrong areas of law.

Although I''d be curious to know what the "right" reasons are for going to law school.

I researched the holy heck out law school and the practice of law. I spoke with lawyers. I LOVED being a summer associate and all of my internship experiences. They are very VERY different from the actual practice of law.

And I don''t think all of the experience as a legal clerk or summer intern can prepare you for the pressure of knowing that decisions that YOU make will influence peoples'' lives, possibly forever. And you can''t know how that pressure will impact you. It kept me up at night. I am a perfectionist - it served me very well in law school - but in practice it would have me checking westlaw at 4am because I woke up in a cold sweat, afraid that I''d missed something in a case. Or worrying that perhaps I''d missed a relevant bit of case law and my client''s case would therefore tank and it''d be entirely my fault. I felt similarly when I was writing an opinion for my judge, confirming a jury''s finding of guilt...I couldn''t shake the fear of WHAT IF I AM WRONG??? Honestly, I don''t know that anything could have prepared me for that.

But that''s my issue...

In response to your question, Sara, Panda hit it on the head. I never tried to go in-house, so I don''t have a ton of information on it. However, I interviewed for a bazillion clerkships and finally got one. I will say that if you think a clerkship is something you''d be interested in, MAKE SURE YOU CLERK WHILE YOU ARE IN LAW SCHOOL!!! Those positions are often very low paying, or entirely unpaid, but they give you some experience and a great in for possible future employment. Regarding government legal jobs...they tend to be SUPER competitive. So again, a summer internship or something to get your foot in the door is a great idea!

I also agree with Panda''s statement that the happiest lawyers are those that are clerks, in-house, or government lawyers. BUT that is also why those jobs are the toughest to get - meaning that being in the top 10% of your class and being on law review pretty much guarantees that you''ll be able to get a big firm job...but there is no guarantee you''ll be able to get a gov''t job or clerkship.

Finally, I recently had lunch with two of my best friend''s from law school. Each one of us made law review, graduated magna cum laude, published...yada yada yada...and all three of us have left the profession entirely.

 

[Octavia]

Ooh, I'm glad to see this thread resurface! I've been thinking about all of this so much, especially since I've been going through OCI for next summer's jobs and haven't been having much luck so far. The thing is, it doesn't bother me at all. I don't want to be at one of those firms long-term, although it would be nice to have a summer experience. But they're looking for future full-time associates, so it's probably better if I don't waste more than 20 minutes of their time.

It's strange to think, though, that a few years ago I probably would have been so geared up for those jobs. At one time, I loved the thought of being an overworked, high-profile attorney but my life has changed so dramatically since I made the decision to go to law school. Now, I spend so little time with my FI (husband by the time I get my JD) that I simply can't imagine taking away more time from that. Our life as a couple is not conducive to life as an attorney in most fields, and it has put me in sort of a difficult place. Right now I'm just plugging away and hoping that it resolves itself before crunch time (otherwise known as the bar exam) comes. The hardest part is that law school is just so job-driven, it's difficult to get away from it and just enjoy the learning part.

Has anyone ever contacted an occupational counselor who specializes in attorneys who are jumping ship (such as the woman who wrote The (Un)Happy Lawyer, although there are many others as well)? I'm seriously considering seeing one sooner rather than later, to discuss what my options are moving forward. But I don't want to do it if it's going to be a waste of time and money.

ETA: littlelysser, I just saw in another thread that you practiced in PA -- are you still here or have you gone elsewhere?

 

[WishfulThinking]

I''ve been thinking about this thread a lot. I think I might have just *avoided* becoming a former lawyer by deciding not to go to law school. I relate to a lot of what littlelysser wrote about being a perfectionist. I am completely a perfectionist and certainly dedicated to my schoolwork, but in many ways the stakes are much lower there. I think I would crumble under the weight of the responsibility of peoples'' lives, and I think it would be unenjoyable for me and burn me out quickly.

I am pretty sure I would love the challenge of law school. Law is one of my favourite things to learn about, and I am truly passionate about it. However, I can''t right now justify spending so much time, energy, and money pursuing a degree I am almost positive I will not use professionally just because I think it would be an interesting and rewarding experience.

Reading the responses to this thread have made me think about my decision differently. I see it a lot more now in terms of how the study of law would differ from the practice of law, rather than a "what do I want to do with my life?" approach. While it does have to do with my future life course, it has helped me realize that my love for learning law doesn''t necessarily translate into a viable career that will bring me fulfillment in my day-to-day life, and that law school may not be the right way to go about achieving my educational and professional goals. Hearing your experiences have given me much needed perspective. Thanks!

 

[littlelysser]

Octavia - I''m still in PA. Are you going to law school on the eastern side or the western side of the state?

And although I understand your reluctance to work at a big firm just for the summer...here''s the thing. You''ll make KILLER money (like 30k+), won''t have to do much work (I had partners coming by my office and telling me to go home because it was after five), and they wine and dine you to death! I''m sure you heard all the jokes about the difference between the summer program and being an actual associate...so FWIW, even if you don''t plan to go the big firm route, it isn''t a bad way to spend a summer!
Just don''t drink the kool-aid!

I haven''t contacted a career counselor, but I do think it might be something to consider doing.

Wishful - I absolutely LOVED law school. LOVED it. It was *really* academically challenging, but I pretty much loved every minute of it. Well, that may be an overstatement...but I really loved what I was doing. And I still think that analyzing and discussing the law is a TON of fun - which is probably why I jump into just about every legal thread that is posted on PS. But while law school is all about abstract ideas and principles...what did the court do here, why did they do it, what should the court have done...the practice of law, particularly private practice, is about how to get the best result for your client, despite that clients guilt or culpability - and trying to convince everyone that something that is black is reallllly actuallllllllly a dark gray. So yeah, they are really different! There are people that are happy doing it...I''m just not one of them!

 

[Octavia]

littlelysser, I''m on the eastern side -- if you drive a few blocks further east, there''s nowhere to go but Jersey

. I absolutely hear you on working for a firm next summer -- what you said is exactly why I applied -- but what I meant is that I''m not devastated about not getting any callbacks yet. On the other hand, some people I know are so set on working at a big firm that they are taking it very personally, and it''s kind of depressing. If someone wanted to pay me that kind of money to work for them for ten weeks, I don''t think I''d turn it down, though!

 

[SarahLovesJS]

Yay this thread is back! Just wanted to say thank you littlelysser for giving your input as well, it''s really helpful.

 

[~*Snow*~]

A little late, but better late then never. I work at an in-house at a crown corporation in Canada ( Crown Corp=We get money from the gov't because we are deemed a public nessesity but the gov't doesn't control how we spend the money)
Anyways i've been there a little over a year, however most lawyers there have been there for 10+ years... the one i work with the most just had her 25th years recognition award. She loves ever moment of the job, she works the 9-5, she deals with happy people at work, we don't really have to bill our time.
Coming from one of the biggest firms in Canada to this in-house was a shock. People are HAPPY! Who knew there were happy lawyers?! But there are also the perks from the big firm that I don't get any more, catered lunches, a free coffee machine (hey it still bugs me!), extravigant gifts at holidays, ect... but the in-house atmosphere more then makes up for it.
If you are thinking about leaving private practice, try the in-house route... I couldn't be more happy here.

 

[goldenstar]

Date: 8/30/2008 11:36:57 PM
Author: littlelysser
Golden - I disagree with your statement that lawyers are unhappy because they went to law school for the wrong reasons, didn''t research it, or are practicing in the wrong areas of law.


Although I''d be curious to know what the ''right'' reasons are for going to law school.


I researched the holy heck out law school and the practice of law. I spoke with lawyers. I LOVED being a summer associate and all of my internship experiences. They are very VERY different from the actual practice of law.


And I don''t think all of the experience as a legal clerk or summer intern can prepare you for the pressure of knowing that decisions that YOU make will influence peoples'' lives, possibly forever. And you can''t know how that pressure will impact you. It kept me up at night. I am a perfectionist - it served me very well in law school - but in practice it would have me checking westlaw at 4am because I woke up in a cold sweat, afraid that I''d missed something in a case. Or worrying that perhaps I''d missed a relevant bit of case law and my client''s case would therefore tank and it''d be entirely my fault. I felt similarly when I was writing an opinion for my judge, confirming a jury''s finding of guilt...I couldn''t shake the fear of WHAT IF I AM WRONG??? Honestly, I don''t know that anything could have prepared me for that.


But that''s my issue...


In response to your question, Sara, Panda hit it on the head. I never tried to go in-house, so I don''t have a ton of information on it. However, I interviewed for a bazillion clerkships and finally got one. I will say that if you think a clerkship is something you''d be interested in, MAKE SURE YOU CLERK WHILE YOU ARE IN LAW SCHOOL!!! Those positions are often very low paying, or entirely unpaid, but they give you some experience and a great in for possible future employment. Regarding government legal jobs...they tend to be SUPER competitive. So again, a summer internship or something to get your foot in the door is a great idea!


I also agree with Panda''s statement that the happiest lawyers are those that are clerks, in-house, or government lawyers. BUT that is also why those jobs are the toughest to get - meaning that being in the top 10% of your class and being on law review pretty much guarantees that you''ll be able to get a big firm job...but there is no guarantee you''ll be able to get a gov''t job or clerkship.


Finally, I recently had lunch with two of my best friend''s from law school. Each one of us made law review, graduated magna cum laude, published...yada yada yada...and all three of us have left the profession entirely.

I used a poor choice of words in my prior post. I wanted to say that if someone went to law school for the wrong reasons, didn''t research it, or is practicing in the wrong area of law there is an increased likelihood of being dissatisfied. I''m not saying that 100% of lawyers who left the legal profession were affected by the above, but my post as written seems to say that. Sorry about that.

Its much easier to give examples of the wrong reasons to go to law school than it is to give the ''right'' reasons. One former lawyer I know said she went to law school because she didn''t want to get a job when she graduated from college. I think most people would say this is a wrong reason. Its entirely possible that she could have found that she loved being a lawyer, but I think the odds would have been a little more against her.

I don''t propose to know all or even a few of the ''right'' reasons to go to law school. However, there are some better reasons that come to my mind. One better reason to go to law school is when you know that it will lead you into the profession you aspire to enter. Maybe you really really want to be a law librarian. Law school will help you get there. That would be a better reason than "I didn''t want to get a job yet when I graduated from college."

Of course, I''m sure that law school can be extremely rewarding even if you don''t "use your degree". The academic challenges and the people you meet will enrich your life forever.

People change careers all the time and there are surprises in every profession. It might be more pronounced among lawyers because of the high stress, high stakes and long hours. Also, lawyers tend to be a very vocal group

. You don''t see a lot of, say, mushroom farmers talking about their career changes on message board.

As with every degree and profession, doing your homework first is valuable but its not a guarantee. That is what I was thinking when I wrote my earlier post.

 

[akw94]

Date: 8/24/2008 9:18:46 PM
Author: SarahLovesJS
Can I thread-jack and ask a question to the former lawyers here? How hard are the government or ''in-house'' jobs to get? I want to go to law school, but I am not really interested in a firm job at all. I just want to make sure it''s doable.

As a former gov. lawyer, I know that you have to be patient to get a gov. job. Often times, there are freezes so no hiring is done or there''s huge amounts of applicants so it may just take awhile. It can''t hurt to have a contact that can make a call or give you a good recommendation letter (just being honest). Getting the job is definitely doable but you may have to work elsewhere for awhile until you get the job you want. Just keep on it.

 

[Harriet]