Forgiveness?

[karee888]

I actually do research on forgiveness. I spent a summer in Japan collecting data for my master''s, examining differences in forgiveness between Easterners and Westerners.

For my dissertation, I''m actually working on a project concerning self-forgiveness and personality/individual differences.

When someone tells another person they have forgiven them, but do not feel this forgiveness internally, it is called hollow forgiveness. It can sometimes have a negative impact on the victim, because it causes a lot of internal cognitive dissonance.

If you don''t feel like you can forgive or have forgiven her, don''t say so. I agree with the other posters'' advice and responding with the "I hope you''re in a better place" etc.

Although it truly is possible she is undergoing therapy for her problems, she could also be doing this on her own. Research has demonstrated that writing about the incident helps people feel better, and the mere act of asking FOR forgiveness can attenuate feelings of guilt and shame.

Forgiveness is so interesting!

 

[Gypsy]

Date: 3/23/2009 7:53:55 PM
Author: Kaleigh
Don't forgive her unless it comes from your heart. I'd say something like this>

I am conflicted about forgiving you because what you did is still painful to me. But am glad to know you are in a better place, and are working on your issues.


Would that be mean? I dunno. I am the type that doesn't forgive easily.

I don't think it would be mean. But I think it opens the door and invites further correspondance. It allows for conversation and reflection and discussion about being 'conflicted'. I'm BIG about not opening that door unless I mean to. When I am corresponding with anyone I don't want to continue to do so with I keep things as short as possible, I generally find that if my tone/ and words match the physical length of my note the message is more effective. If I want the person to go away, then I keep things short and don't invite any further comment.


ETA: Can you tell I'm kinda used to doing this? It's a self defense mechinism at work, but also applies to personal correspondence.

 

[Kaleigh]

Date: 3/23/2009 8:02:57 PM
Author: Gypsy

Date: 3/23/2009 7:53:55 PM
Author: Kaleigh
Don't forgive her unless it comes from your heart. I'd say something like this>

I am conflicted about forgiving you because what you did is still painful to me. But am glad to know you are in a better place, and are working on your issues.


Would that be mean? I dunno. I am the type that doesn't forgive easily.

I don't think it would be mean. But I think it opens the door and invites further correspondance. It allows for conversation and reflection and discussion about being 'conflicted'. I'm BIG about not opening that door unless I mean to. When I am corresponding with anyone I don't want to continue to do so with I keep things as short as possible, I generally find that if my tone/ and words match the physical length of my note the message is more effective. If I want the person to go away, then I keep things short and don't invite any further comment.


ETA: Can you tell I'm kinda used to doing this? It's a self defense mechinism at work, but also applies to personal correspondence.

Hehe, I have to work on it, cause to me, it was not open ended. I thought I was good at cutting off at the kneecaps. You and I had joked about that in the past. Guessing I am a tad rusty??? LOL.

 

[Gypsy]

Date: 3/23/2009 8:11:48 PM
Author: Kaleigh

Date: 3/23/2009 8:02:57 PM
Author: Gypsy

Date: 3/23/2009 7:53:55 PM
Author: Kaleigh
Don't forgive her unless it comes from your heart. I'd say something like this>

I am conflicted about forgiving you because what you did is still painful to me. But am glad to know you are in a better place, and are working on your issues.


Would that be mean? I dunno. I am the type that doesn't forgive easily.

I don't think it would be mean. But I think it opens the door and invites further correspondance. It allows for conversation and reflection and discussion about being 'conflicted'. I'm BIG about not opening that door unless I mean to. When I am corresponding with anyone I don't want to continue to do so with I keep things as short as possible, I generally find that if my tone/ and words match the physical length of my note the message is more effective. If I want the person to go away, then I keep things short and don't invite any further comment.


ETA: Can you tell I'm kinda used to doing this? It's a self defense mechinism at work, but also applies to personal correspondence.

Hehe, I have to work on it, cause to me, it was not open ended. I thought I was good at cutting off at the kneecaps. Guessing I am a tad rusty??? LOL.

ROFLMAO. Looks like the grasshopper MIGHT finally be catching up (a wee little bit, admittedly) to the master.

Seriously though. It's something I have to do at work. Lawyers will run completely amok if you give them ANY opening or glimmer of hope that there is something that they can exploit to prolong a negotiation. It's a PITA. So I've learned to just... cut them off at the pass. I send out emails that say:

No.

Thank you,
Layla


Seriously. It's THAT bad.


(ETA: I like the 'working on your issues' bit though. Nice backhanded jab

which is why, you after all, are the master!)

 

[musey]

Date: 3/23/2009 7:51:40 PM
Author: Gypsy
No. I wouldn''t offer forgiveness. You don''t feel it, you don''t feel it. This is about you too, not just about her. Okay she asked three times. She could ask a 100. The fact is, you were hurt and you aren''t obligated to ''grant'' forgiveness like you are a Genie in a bottle. You are a person. And if you don''t feel it, you don''t. If she REALLY has changed then she will realize it''s not all about her and let it go. If she doesn''t or can''t let it go... and doesn''t realize this is about YOU and not her. She hasn''t changed, so why bother?

I wouldn''t give more than I edited to add above. I have people who I LIKE that I don''t write back to on a regular basis, or call back on time, or whatever. Let alone someone who hurt me and abused my trust and friendship.

Yes, you''re right. Thanks, Gypsy

 

[musey]

Date: 3/23/2009 7:53:55 PM
Author: Kaleigh
Don't forgive her unless it comes from your heart. I'd say something like this>

I am conflicted about forgiving you because what you did is still painful to me. But am glad to know you are in a better place, and are working on your issues.


Would that be mean? I dunno. I am the type that doesn't forgive easily.

Kaleigh, you have a knack for brevity that I wish I could harness myself.

Thank you for posting

ETA: I agree with Layla that I would read it as an invitation for further sharing on her part. It's the "I am conflicted about forgiving you" that would make me think as the recipient, "I'm not sure whether I can forgive you... more information please?"

What I REALLY want to say is "I truly appreciate your effort to contact me and your apology. I'm sorry to say that forgiveness is not something I can offer at this point, but I am glad to hear that you are in a better place now."

 

[musey]

Date: 3/23/2009 8:00:50 PM
Author: karee888
I actually do research on forgiveness. I spent a summer in Japan collecting data for my master''s, examining differences in forgiveness between Easterners and Westerners.

For my dissertation, I''m actually working on a project concerning self-forgiveness and personality/individual differences.

When someone tells another person they have forgiven them, but do not feel this forgiveness internally, it is called hollow forgiveness. It can sometimes have a negative impact on the victim, because it causes a lot of internal cognitive dissonance.

If you don''t feel like you can forgive or have forgiven her, don''t say so. I agree with the other posters'' advice and responding with the ''I hope you''re in a better place'' etc.

Although it truly is possible she is undergoing therapy for her problems, she could also be doing this on her own. Research has demonstrated that writing about the incident helps people feel better, and the mere act of asking FOR forgiveness can attenuate feelings of guilt and shame.

Forgiveness is so interesting!

Karee, thank you so much for sharing some of your knowledge in this area! I agree, it''s very interesting. Please feel free to share more of your research, if you''re willing

Hollow forgiveness... that is exactly what the idea of forgiving her feels like to me. And you''re right, even thinking about doing it makes me feel yucky about the whole thing. So I guess that cements where I stand on whether or not to forgive her.

 

[movie zombie]

Date: 3/23/2009 7:53:55 PM
Author: Kaleigh
Don''t forgive her unless it comes from your heart. I''d say something like this>

I am conflicted about forgiving you because what you did is still painful to me. But am glad to know you are in a better place, and are working on your issues.


Would that be mean? I dunno. I am the type that doesn''t forgive easily.

+1.

"I am glad you are in a better place in your life."

and leave it at that. no open door for future contact....and if she does contact you again, just ignore it.

mz

 

[musey]

Date: 3/23/2009 8:16:09 PM
Author: Gypsy
I send out emails that say:

No.

Thank you,
Layla


Seriously. It''s THAT bad.

I LOVE that! A little more than I should

My husband likes to reply with "Please remove" when he gets into reply-all chains that he''s not interested in

I love stuff like that.

 

[princesss]

Date: 3/23/2009 6:43:47 PM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 3/23/2009 6:36:15 PM

Author: steph72276

Sounds like she might be going through a 12-step program. I''m not sure what all the steps are, but I''m pretty sure asking for forgiveness from those you''ve done something wrong to is in the plan. I would also write back a short and to the point letter saying that you appreciate the apology and leave it at that.

my thoughts as well.

That was my thought as well.

Forgiving this kind of thing is really hard. Don''t try to force yourself into it, but at least you have some acknowledgment that she knows you didn''t deserve it. I usually find it harder to get past things when the person won''t acknowledge that they did anything wrong/that they lied.

*hug*

 

[Gypsy]

Date: 3/23/2009 8:30:22 PM
Author: musey

Date: 3/23/2009 8:16:09 PM
Author: Gypsy
I send out emails that say:

No.

Thank you,
Layla


Seriously. It's THAT bad.

I LOVE that! A little more than I should

My husband likes to reply with 'Please remove' when he gets into reply-all chains that he's not interested in

I love stuff like that.

Hehehehe

Yeah. I asked the other side for an exclusion in one of the provisions which they agreed to this morning via a VERY LONG PHONE conversation. Then I sent out the final draft with that exclusion in it for signature. They called me twice, and I didn't pick up the phone (LONG conversation this morning). So they sent me an email back that said, "I thought since we had agreed to include that exclusion to our liablity, you would consider mirroring the concession in the provision regarding your liability."

I sent back an email above. They've been a chatty bunch and I just do not have time. I got signed copies a couple hours later.

 

[karee888]

Of course! We social psychologists love to talk about our research!

Basically, here''s what we found for my thesis:

-We were interested in how Easterners and Westerners thought about forgiveness. Surprisingly, there has been VERY little cross-cultural research in this area. Pretty much everything we know about forgiveness - what contributes to forgiveness, what forgiveness is related to - has been examined with American participants.

-Westerners - our American participants - defined forgiveness in self-enhancing ways [i.e.: makes you feel good about the self, being the bigger person], whereas the Japanese described forgiveness in other-oriented terms [i.e: compassion, to have an open heart, compromising].

-Forgiveness is very much linked to high arousal emotions - anger, happiness, sadness, etc. for Americans, whereas Easterners were more likely to describe forgiveness as a sense of calm and peace.

-Easterners - our Japanese participants - defined forgiveness in terms of harmony in the relationship. They reported forgiving other people to preserve relationship harmony, not because they necessarily truly felt forgiveness. Of course, in some cases, forgiveness may have actually occurred...but it is framed in a way that one "should" forgive others. It makes sense, because relationships are perceived as obligations, whereas they are freely chosen in American culture. We think that members of East Asian cultures are more likely to be hollow forgivers...which is another line of research we will eventually pursue.

-Japanese participants were more likely to define forgiveness in terms of the situation - that is, they were aware that people sometimes act in certain ways due to something about the situation. We Americans tend to attribute a person''s actions to something internal or stable about the person. This is called the fundamental attribution error. So, if Sally trips and falls, Americans would be more likely to say it was because Sally was clumsy; Japanese would be more likely to say it must have been icy. So, the Japanese recognize situational forces involved in the transgression, and Americans tend to think it''s something about the PERSON that caused the harm.

-Japanese were also likely to define forgiveness in terms of tolerance, whereas Americans were more likely to perceive forgiveness as reconciliation. In addition, Americans perceived forgiveness as a personal CHOICE, something they could decide on and possibly grant forgiveness to another if they WANTED to.

-Americans were more likely to mention the negative aspects of forgiveness [i.e.: questioning if you made the right decision, crying].

-Americans were also more likely to define forgiveness in terms of ideal personality characteristics [i.e.: to be understanding, to be patient]. For Americans, forgiveness is something that comes from WITHIN, and doesn''t necessarily focus on the other person, since the victim can CHOOSE to forgive the transgressor or not.

I''m currently finishing the manuscript. There''s a lot more, but these are the highlights.

 

[tlh]

I was watching Sober House the other day -- on VH1 and Andy Dick was asking for forgiveness as part of his recovery. His former assistant said something like I am happy you are in a better place because it was clear you were on a distructive path, but you did horrible and hurtful things to me- and I do not forgive you. It was very awkward as it was face to face - and andy dick really came to grips that he did some HORRIBLE things... and simply asking for forgiveness when you are ready to work through your demons - does not mean you will get it. Sometimes it is actually better for the person if you don''t "play nice"

 

[Kaleigh]

Date: 3/23/2009 8:20:50 PM
Author: musey

Date: 3/23/2009 7:53:55 PM
Author: Kaleigh
Don''t forgive her unless it comes from your heart. I''d say something like this>

I am conflicted about forgiving you because what you did is still painful to me. But am glad to know you are in a better place, and are working on your issues.


Would that be mean? I dunno. I am the type that doesn''t forgive easily.

Kaleigh, you have a knack for brevity that I wish I could harness myself.

Thank you for posting

ETA: I agree with Layla that I would read it as an invitation for further sharing on her part. It''s the ''I am conflicted about forgiving you'' that would make me think as the recipient, ''I''m not sure whether I can forgive you... more information please?''

What I REALLY want to say is ''I truly appreciate your effort to contact me and your apology. I''m sorry to say that forgiveness is not something I can offer at this point, but I am glad to hear that you are in a better place now.''

DING DING DING, That''s it. Say that and be done. It''s perfect.

 

[crown1]

i would forgive her and put it all in the past. since she is not a part of your life she can not hurt you further. if i were offered a sincere apology by a person who: admitted that they were wrong, admitted i had done nothing to deserve the bad treatment, and said that they did not deserve forgiveness i would feel the need to respond. i know i have done and will do things in the future that will need forgiveness. how can i deny it to someone who has truly seen the error of their way, when i have also done hurtful things to others for which i would like to be forgiven?

i would respond to the email by saying: i know it took a lot for you to revisit your bad treatment of me. i sincerely appreciate your acknowledgment of it and the apology. it is now time for us to put this in the past and go on with our lives. crown1.

why waste more time thinking about it? just forgive and forget. you don''t need to have further contact.

 

[kittybean]

Thanks for starting this topic, Musey, and thanks for sharing your fascinating research, Karee. This is so interesting.

 

[FrekeChild]

The first girl I wrote about in my last post...I wrote her back totally disregarding her regrets and her I''m sorry''s. Emails stopped shortly afterward (she wrote me originally to congratulate me on my engagement and give me condolences for my mom).

I think I would write her back, acknowledge that she wrote you and...


Dear Mean Girl,

I appreciate your apology, although it had been some time since I had thought about the things you said. I''m glad to hear that things are looking up for you and that you are in a better place.

Regards,
Musey the Bad @$$


I have another version that is rattling around in my head, but it''s not as cordial. Let me know if you want me to share...

 

[swimmer]

Date: 3/23/2009 8:40:57 PM
Author: karee888
Of course! We social psychologists love to talk about our research!


-Japanese were also likely to define forgiveness in terms of tolerance, whereas Americans were more likely to perceive forgiveness as reconciliation. In addition, Americans perceived forgiveness as a personal CHOICE, something they could decide on and possibly grant forgiveness to another if they WANTED to.


I''m currently finishing the manuscript. There''s a lot more, but these are the highlights.

Very interesting karree, in particular the difference in perspective over choice and context. I''m sure you have read The Sunflower: On the Possibilities and Limits of Forgiveness by Simon Wiesenthal, but wanted to suggest it to others as an amazing and powerful exploration of the power and nature of forgiveness and its possibilities. The first part of the book is a situation during the Holocaust, the second .5 is commentary by many modern philosophers about what they would do, would they have forgiven. Of particular interest to my students when we read this book are comments by the Dali Lama and Desmond Tutu. Culture frames forgiveness in such interesting ways. link

Good luck with your dissertation, fascinating research.

 

[violet02]

I''ve been on both sides of this.

When I was younger I could be pretty cruel to people. I think a lot of that had to do with mood swings, depression etc. Once I got on meds I was 1000% better. I''d have to say I found the same to be true of someone I know right now who just got on meds. Their personality and how they treat people is a WHOLE lot better. People can change, and I know deco was saying they don''t change much but I think that really depends on the person. There are some fundamental traits a person has that may be hard to change, but there are things a person can change for sure, like how they treat people etc.

I had a really GREAT friend that I spent every thanksgiving with, (her and her mom, siblings, husband etc). They treated me like a family member. She moved away but we still kept in touch. At some point she wigged out and our friendship was done. A couple of years later she wrote me to say that she found out that she had depression among other things and need therapy, meds etc and before she worked through that she had ruined some friendships but felt better now. I wanted to be her friend still but years had gone by and we were just two far apart at that point. We''re still online friends so to speak but I bet I''ll never see her again.

On the flip side I had some VERY close friendships I ruined with harsh words and treatment. I''d even asked for forgiveness years later and wasn''t given it per se. I did it because I felt bad about my behavior and I missed their friendship but I knew deep down we''d never actually be friends again, too much time had gone by. Instead I just felt so badly about it that I wanted to reach out to them and say hey I was a jerk, I''m sorry. A lot of those feelings came out after I got a grip on who I was as a person and made steps to change that. I wasn''t in a 12 step program but I felt like reaching out to certain people. The one friend in particular I''m thinking of never responded to me. And honestly it was a way to assuage my guilt and not feel like such a jerk. The fact that he didnt'' respond at all was sad but to be expected. I mean what do you really say to someone you had a big falling out with that writes you like that? Ok, thanks? I wouldn''t expect he''d ever want to be friends again.

I think if you''re not feeling it in terms of responding then don''t respond. You don''t owe them anything. If you do feel like letting that person know you appreciate the letter then that''s cool too. If I were her I wouldn''t expect a response per se, but I would feel better knowing I had least said something to you acknowleding my bad behavior in a past life.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Date: 3/23/2009 9:00:04 PM
Author: crown1
i would forgive her and put it all in the past. since she is not a part of your life she can not hurt you further. if i were offered a sincere apology by a person who: admitted that they were wrong, admitted i had done nothing to deserve the bad treatment, and said that they did not deserve forgiveness i would feel the need to respond. i know i have done and will do things in the future that will need forgiveness. how can i deny it to someone who has truly seen the error of their way, when i have also done hurtful things to others for which i would like to be forgiven?

i would respond to the email by saying: i know it took a lot for you to revisit your bad treatment of me. i sincerely appreciate your acknowledgment of it and the apology. it is now time for us to put this in the past and go on with our lives. crown1.

why waste more time thinking about it? just forgive and forget. you don''t need to have further contact.

Ditto. If one desires to obtain forgiveness, he must also be willing to forgive. You''ve been offered a sincere apology. Accept it, grant forgiveness, and set yourself free from the negative feelings you are holding onto. Refusing to forgive will hurt you the most. She has done the right thing, which is pretty rare.

 

[canuk-gal]

Date: 3/23/2009 9:09:46 PM
Author: diamondseeker2006

Date: 3/23/2009 9:00:04 PM
Author: crown1
i would forgive her and put it all in the past. since she is not a part of your life she can not hurt you further. if i were offered a sincere apology by a person who: admitted that they were wrong, admitted i had done nothing to deserve the bad treatment, and said that they did not deserve forgiveness i would feel the need to respond. i know i have done and will do things in the future that will need forgiveness. how can i deny it to someone who has truly seen the error of their way, when i have also done hurtful things to others for which i would like to be forgiven?

i would respond to the email by saying: i know it took a lot for you to revisit your bad treatment of me. i sincerely appreciate your acknowledgment of it and the apology. it is now time for us to put this in the past and go on with our lives. crown1.

why waste more time thinking about it? just forgive and forget. you don''t need to have further contact.

Ditto. If one desires to obtain forgiveness, he must also be willing to forgive. You''ve been offered a sincere apology. Accept it, grant forgiveness, and set yourself free from the negative feelings you are holding onto. Refusing to forgive will hurt you the most. She has done the right thing, which is pretty rare.

HI:

Thritto. Ten years is a long time to hold onto negative feelings. Likely, neither of you are in the same "place" in your lives and hopefully will have moved on. That is a positive thing--or perhap the "best" ending. Often one is not given the chance to give and receive forgiveness. This is a gift.

cheers--Sharon

 

[Tacori E-ring]

I am going through something similar right now. Good times!

I would answer it b/c that''s just the kind of person I am. Would I try to renew a friendship? Ummm...probably not. I realized that friendships evolve. We are certainly in difference places in our lives so sometimes it is better to cut your loses so to speak. Still sucks though

 

[musey]

Date: 3/23/2009 9:20:16 PM
Author: canuk-gal

Date: 3/23/2009 9:09:46 PM
Author: diamondseeker2006

Date: 3/23/2009 9:00:04 PM
Author: crown1
i would forgive her and put it all in the past. since she is not a part of your life she can not hurt you further. if i were offered a sincere apology by a person who: admitted that they were wrong, admitted i had done nothing to deserve the bad treatment, and said that they did not deserve forgiveness i would feel the need to respond. i know i have done and will do things in the future that will need forgiveness. how can i deny it to someone who has truly seen the error of their way, when i have also done hurtful things to others for which i would like to be forgiven?

i would respond to the email by saying: i know it took a lot for you to revisit your bad treatment of me. i sincerely appreciate your acknowledgment of it and the apology. it is now time for us to put this in the past and go on with our lives. crown1.

why waste more time thinking about it? just forgive and forget. you don''t need to have further contact.

Ditto. If one desires to obtain forgiveness, he must also be willing to forgive. You''ve been offered a sincere apology. Accept it, grant forgiveness, and set yourself free from the negative feelings you are holding onto. Refusing to forgive will hurt you the most. She has done the right thing, which is pretty rare.

HI:

Thritto. Ten years is a long time to hold onto negative feelings. Likely, neither of you are in the same ''place'' in your lives and hopefully will have moved on. That is a positive thing--or perhap the ''best'' ending. Often one is not given the chance to give and receive forgiveness. This is a gift.

cheers--Sharon

I suppose, and the ''old me'' would have done so without giving it a second thought.

But again, it must really depend on how one defines forgiveness. If it''s letting go of negative feelings, moving on, and no longer wishing ill on a person... I already did that, YEARS ago. As I was saying earlier, my ''negative feelings'' are quite passive at this point. They don''t extend beyond "Oh her? Yeah, she did some horrible things awhile ago. She''s not someone I''d hope to deal with in the future." She no longer creates any angst or distress in my mind, it really is just a calm dismissal of "oh, her."

If forgiveness is wiping the slate clean and giving that person a ''pass,'' then I don''t think it''s something I can do. I cannot go from her being a ''bad'' to her being ''neutral'' in my mind in one "I''m sorry, please forgive me?" email.

 

[musey]

Date: 3/23/2009 8:35:51 PM
Author: princesss
Forgiving this kind of thing is really hard. Don''t try to force yourself into it, but at least you have some acknowledgment that she knows you didn''t deserve it. I usually find it harder to get past things when the person won''t acknowledge that they did anything wrong/that they lied.

*hug*

Thanks for the hug, princesss

It does help whatever residual hurt was left after all this time to have her admit that she was fully in the wrong. Even though I''d already accepted that for myself, it was... satisfying?... to hear from her.

 

[karee888]

Date: 3/23/2009 9:29:30 PM
Author: musey

Date: 3/23/2009 9:20:16 PM

Author: canuk-gal

Date: 3/23/2009 9:09:46 PM

Author: diamondseeker2006

Date: 3/23/2009 9:00:04 PM

Author: crown1

i would forgive her and put it all in the past. since she is not a part of your life she can not hurt you further. if i were offered a sincere apology by a person who: admitted that they were wrong, admitted i had done nothing to deserve the bad treatment, and said that they did not deserve forgiveness i would feel the need to respond. i know i have done and will do things in the future that will need forgiveness. how can i deny it to someone who has truly seen the error of their way, when i have also done hurtful things to others for which i would like to be forgiven?


i would respond to the email by saying: i know it took a lot for you to revisit your bad treatment of me. i sincerely appreciate your acknowledgment of it and the apology. it is now time for us to put this in the past and go on with our lives. crown1.


why waste more time thinking about it? just forgive and forget. you don''t need to have further contact.

Ditto. If one desires to obtain forgiveness, he must also be willing to forgive. You''ve been offered a sincere apology. Accept it, grant forgiveness, and set yourself free from the negative feelings you are holding onto. Refusing to forgive will hurt you the most. She has done the right thing, which is pretty rare.

HI:


Thritto. Ten years is a long time to hold onto negative feelings. Likely, neither of you are in the same ''place'' in your lives and hopefully will have moved on. That is a positive thing--or perhap the ''best'' ending. Often one is not given the chance to give and receive forgiveness. This is a gift.


cheers--Sharon

I suppose, and the ''old me'' would have done so without giving it a second thought.


But again, it must really depend on how one defines forgiveness. If it''s letting go of negative feelings, moving on, and no longer wishing ill on a person... I already did that, YEARS ago. As I was saying earlier, my ''negative feelings'' are quite passive at this point. They don''t extend beyond ''Oh her? Yeah, she did some horrible things awhile ago. She''s not someone I''d hope to deal with in the future.'' She no longer creates any angst or distress in my mind, it really is just a calm dismissal of ''oh, her.''


If forgiveness is wiping the slate clean and giving that person a ''pass,'' then I don''t think it''s something I can do. I cannot go from her being a ''bad'' to her being ''neutral'' in my mind in one ''I''m sorry, please forgive me?'' email.

That''s actually another debate in the field right now - how to operationally define forgiveness. Some say it is a lack of revenge/retaliation motivations toward the transgressor; others say it''s a lack of revenge motivation coupled with the desire to increase positive interactions. I agree more with the former. I think you can forgive someone and still not want anything to do with them; you can wish no ill will, but it doesn''t mean you want to be in contact and resume a relationship.

 

[musey]

Date: 3/23/2009 8:40:57 PM
Author: karee888
Of course! We social psychologists love to talk about our research!

...

-Japanese were also likely to define forgiveness in terms of tolerance, whereas Americans were more likely to perceive forgiveness as reconciliation.

Karee, thank you! That was all very interesting.

The above sentence is a good way to describe my conflict (for the sake of discussion, I'm making a bigger deal of this than it really is). As far as tolerance goes, I technically have granted that long ago. I accepted that the falling out was entirely the fault of her mental state, I knew both that (a) I hadn't done anything wrong, and (b) she was not in control of her mind at the time. I think that those two facts led to my somewhat 'making peace' with the whole thing LONG ago. LOOOOOOOOOONG ago.

What makes the words "I forgive you" difficult to offer up, is that I heard through the grapevine that she was 'sorry' at least five years ago. My dad told me that he'd run into her, she'd said she felt terrible, asked for my contact information (which he gave without my permission

he is famous for this)... and I never heard from her. Until now.

I think that the fact that it's taken her SO long, since the incident itself and then since she told my dad she already felt remorseful, is what makes me feel reluctant. I don't know if that makes any sense. But I feel as though this whole thing has passed its statute of limitations and she should just have let sleeping dogs lie.

 

[musey]

Date: 3/23/2009 9:23:54 PM
Author: Tacori E-ring
I am going through something similar right now. Good times!

I would answer it b/c that''s just the kind of person I am. Would I try to renew a friendship? Ummm...probably not. I realized that friendships evolve. We are certainly in difference places in our lives so sometimes it is better to cut your loses so to speak. Still sucks though

Sorry you''re going through it, too!

Feel free to vent if you''d like

 

[musey]

Date: 3/23/2009 9:02:41 PM
Author: FrekeChild
I have another version that is rattling around in my head, but it''s not as cordial. Let me know if you want me to share...

You know that I ALWAYS like to hear your ''other versions''

 

[musey]

Date: 3/23/2009 8:47:28 PM
Author: Kaleigh

Date: 3/23/2009 8:20:50 PM
Author: musey

Date: 3/23/2009 7:53:55 PM
Author: Kaleigh
Don''t forgive her unless it comes from your heart. I''d say something like this

I am conflicted about forgiving you because what you did is still painful to me. But am glad to know you are in a better place, and are working on your issues.

Would that be mean? I dunno. I am the type that doesn''t forgive easily.

Kaleigh, you have a knack for brevity that I wish I could harness myself.

Thank you for posting

ETA: I agree with Layla that I would read it as an invitation for further sharing on her part. It''s the ''I am conflicted about forgiving you'' that would make me think as the recipient, ''I''m not sure whether I can forgive you... more information please?''

What I REALLY want to say is ''I truly appreciate your effort to contact me and your apology. I''m sorry to say that forgiveness is not something I can offer at this point, but I am glad to hear that you are in a better place now.''

DING DING DING, That''s it. Say that and be done. It''s perfect.

Thanks! I''ll probably end up with that or similar. I''m interested to see were this "definition of forgiveness" discussion goes, though...

 

[AmberGretchen]

I''d vote for forgiving, but not necessarily encouraging her to be part of your life again.

I had a lot of people who were incredibly hurtful to me when I was younger, and I think that''s what I''d want to do if they came to me with an apology. I think it will be cathartic for you and hopefully help you get closure and let go of some of the hurt it sounds like you are still carrying around.