Fluorescence or low cut grade? And what to do about it?

[tomatotoes]

My fiance and I rushed into our engagement ring purchase -- we knew we had a small budget (under $3000 for now, and we plan to upgrade in a few years when we're not in grad school and our financial situation changes) so we felt we didn't have a lot of options and made a quick decision. Now that I've worn the ring and become familiar with the diamond I'm starting to wonder if we didn't get the best quality for the $ we paid, and I now notice much less scintillation in certain lights and a bit of haziness/loss of definition. The diamond we bought is a 0.65ct, very good cut, VS2 clarity and J color with strong blue fluorescence. We are very very new to the diamond world, so please help some total novices out with the collective knowledge/perspective on here!

So, now to the questions:

1. Now that I've done some reading about cuts and I realize that "very good" isn't very good at all, and I also know that fluorescence can cause haziness. I'm wondering which factor (or both?) is contributing to the look of this stone -- and is it a problem visually?

2. Did we overpay for this stone? We weren't given an individual quote for the diamond (we bought our wedding bands at the same time and were just given a single price for all three things), but working backwards I think we may have paid around $1600-ish.

3. If we did decide to upgrade/improve the ring, what is our best option to do this? We purchased from a bricks and mortar store in NYC's diamond district that does have a X2 upgrade policy. Considering we didn't go over budget here, we could perhaps consider doing this upgrade in a year or two, but the budget would still likely be less than $4000. Are we better off going back, or selling and going somewhere else?

OR am I making too big of a deal out of something that's not noticeable?? ANY advice or thoughts would be much appreciated! We're a bit clueless! Thank you so much in advance!

 

[Matthews1127]

Can you give us more info on the stats of the diamond? Crown angle, Pavilion Angle, and measurements in mm, including depth, please? Do you have the plot for the diamond for clarity to post? Is there a certificate you can post to further help us to help you?

 

[tomatotoes]

Ah yes, that would be helpful! I ran it through the HCA calculator and it came up with a 3.1 rating I think it's quite shallow, and I'm wondering if that's also causing some of the issues with haziness?

Depth 56.3%
Table 63 %
Crown Angle 30.5°
Crown Height 11.0%
Pavilion Angle 40.8°
Pavilion Depth 42.5%
Star Length 50%
Lower Half 80%
Girdle - Thin to Medium, 2.5%
Culet - none

The link to the certificate is here: https://www.gia.edu/report-check?reportno=2183774470

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Well, it's the cut that's not great. I don't think the fluorescence is likely to be a problem in a VS2 stone. Are you by any chance still within the return period for this ring? If so, I'd just return and start over. If not, you'd be like many here who didn't know any better, but we knew more on the second try. I'd personally either keep it for a pendant and start over with a new stone for a later anniversary for your ring, or you can sell the stone taking a loss of maybe up to half and then start over at a vendor who sells great diamonds and has a good upgrade policy with no minimum amount to upgrade.

If you do try to upgrade with your current vendor, here's what you need to aim for, because GIA excellent cut is a very broad range, and you need to select from the better ones.

These are measurements to help you stay in ideal cut territory with a GIA excellent cut stone.

table: 54-58

depth: 60-62.3

crown angle: 34-35.0 (up to 35.5 crown angle can sometimes work with a 40.6 pav angle)

pavilion angle: 40.6-40.9 (sometimes 41.0 if the crown angle is close to 34)

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Oh, and be sure you are cleaning your ring almost daily. That is the main reason diamonds don't look their best!

A GIA excellent cut is around $1600, so you didn't overpay a huge amount or anything. You can actually get a super ideal cut .65 ct J VS2 at $1800 and it's upgradable with any increase in value over what you paid.

https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3970253.htm

 

[Luce]

Hi Tomatoes,
Are you cleaning it often? If it is oily or dirty, that could cause the haziness.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Ah yes, that would be helpful! I ran it through the HCA calculator and it came up with a 3.1 rating I think it's quite shallow, and I'm wondering if that's also causing some of the issues with haziness?

The link to the certificate is here: https://www.gia.edu/report-check?reportno=2183774470

TBH, flat top, big table, combined with a shallow cut is not good news.

 

[HDer]

While you probably overpaid at a B&M store, on such a small diamond you probably didn't overpay very much. For example, here's a J/VS2/VG/0.63 carat diamond selling on James Allen for 1470: https://www.jamesallen.com/loose-di...j-color-vs2-clarity-very-good-cut-sku-4687444

Assuming you can't return the diamond, when it comes upgrade time you'll have to make a decision as to whether to remain with the B&M store and keep the upgrade policy or forget about it and just get something through an internet retailer. Generally the difference between the internet price and the B&M price will go up the more you spend so the upgrade policy might not make sense. Really depends on the store. IDJ in New York for example can be pretty competitive with and even beat James Allen prices.

 

[Matthews1127]

Well, it's the cut that's not great. I don't think the fluorescence is likely to be a problem in a VS2 stone. Are you by any chance still within the return period for this ring? If so, I'd just return and start over. If not, you'd be like many here who didn't know any better, but we knew more on the second try. I'd personally either keep it for a pendant and start over with a new stone for a later anniversary for your ring, or you can sell the stone taking a loss of maybe up to half and then start over at a vendor who sells great diamonds and has a good upgrade policy with no minimum amount to upgrade.

If you do try to upgrade with your current vendor, here's what you need to aim for, because GIA excellent cut is a very broad range, and you need to select from the better ones.

These are measurements to help you stay in ideal cut territory with a GIA excellent cut stone.

table: 54-58

depth: 60-62.3

crown angle: 34-35.0 (up to 35.5 crown angle can sometimes work with a 40.6 pav angle)

pavilion angle: 40.6-40.9 (sometimes 41.0 if the crown angle is close to 34)

This is what I was afraid of: very poorly cut.
I do hope you are still within your return window. If not, I encourage you to follow the advice here, and follow the parameters as closely as possible on your next purchase. A lot of us, here, can help you, when you’re ready to start your search.
If you can take your time to save up your money, you may even be able to consider HPD/BGD superideals!!

 

[WinkHPD]

3. If we did decide to upgrade/improve the ring, what is our best option to do this? We purchased from a bricks and mortar store in NYC's diamond district that does have a X2 upgrade policy. Considering we didn't go over budget here, we could perhaps consider doing this upgrade in a year or two, but the budget would still likely be less than $4000. Are we better off going back, or selling and going somewhere else?

To me this is a question of, "Do we trust the retailer who sold us a poorly cut diamond to provide us with a good one, provided we spend twice as much as we spent for the first one?"

Many, if not the majority of retailers have customers. Someone to whom they sell something, anything, as long as it brings dollars into the store.

The better retailers have clients. Someone who is under their protection and receives their guidance to assure that their clients make only purchases that are in their best interests. Retailers who have clients normally develop long term relationships with those clients and go to great lengths to assure that their clients are receiving fair value when a purchase is made.

In the diamond world, this means not selling poorly cut diamonds masquerading under the misleading report grade of very good. It means screening the diamonds for over blue fluorescence, color casts not shown on grading reports and knowing their suppliers to be sure that there are no conflict diamonds going through their inventory. It also means being willing to educate their clients so that their clients can make comfortable, educated decisions when buying.

Your question leads me to ask these questions. Do you wish to try to return to a retailer who clearly sees you only as a customer and being forearmed with some angles and percentages hope that you do not buy a well cut diamond that still has a brown or green color cast or possibly haziness that does not show on the diamond grading report? Or, would you rather find a retailer who is willing to share education with you, to explain fully what you are considering and who has already screened the diamond for those things not shown on a report that can still cause you to become dissatisfied with your diamond when your diamond viewing palate has become capable of seeing the defects?

Wink

 

[sledge]

On a positive note, the style and look of the ring looks good on your hands!

As others have suggested, I think your problems are caused by not being well cut. Below is a chart from AGS that shows a potential cut score based on the table, crown & pavilion angles of a stone. Based on the data, this chart shows you probably have a fair (F) to good (G) cut. One thing I might note is that because of the table 63 table size, the best cut you can achieve is an excellent (EX). On smaller tables, like 54-57 for example, it's possible to achieve pink boxes which is an ideal cut. Also, on smaller tables, you will start to see smaller areas of blue and more pink, red, orange, yellow and green as it's easier to obtain better cut quality on those table sizes.



I might also address your concern with fluor. On stones that are well cut, decent clarity and more warm colors, it can actually have a positive effect as it helps slightly whiten the stone. Many actually seek out and prefer stones with fluor. The stone I recently bought my girl is part of Brian Gavin Diamond's (BGD) Blue series, which is extremely well cut stones with fluor. I have no issues, and it was a great way to save a few dollars and get a great stone. I would encourage you to read up on his page so you can understand how this can be a positive, and not a negative.

https://www.briangavindiamonds.com/diamond/brian-gavins-blue-diamonds-with-fluorescence/

Also, there are a few good videos. One, Brian explains fluor. The other a customer shows off their diamond and wow, it's just gorgeous. I'm linking both videos as I feel they are relevant to your concerns with fluor.

Using the percentages and angles already suggested by others will help ensure your next diamond purchase is a much better experience. I am sorry this one has turned sour. The good news is that while you are learning you could have done better, at least the you were not price gouged by a significant amount.

At this point, I think you would be wise to return the stone for a refund, if that is even an option. If not, then I would do some research and save up and buy an ideal cut stone myself. Perhaps you can repurpose the existing stone, have it re-cut (realizing there are limitations) or just sell out right and apply the funds to your future upgrade.

FYI, there are some quality vendors to work with such as HPD, BGD & WF. Others exist as well, but I prefer these as they are transparent and make getting data on the stones and pricing very easy. As @Wink noted earlier, you need to do business with a company that treats you as a respected client and not just a dollar.

 

[tomatotoes]

Seriously, you all = amazing. I'm so impressed with the quality of information you've given me! And thank YOU for not making me feel more embarassed than I already am for our naive diamond purchase. These are fantastic suggestions for a possible upgrade -- I am sure we will do that in a few years once our finances permit, since, unfortunatley, we are over the 30 day return policy of our original jeweler. In the meantime, I am content with my ring (it's tolerable in real life, but I won't be sad to part with it when we're able!) Again, I am so happy to recieve this information!!

Two further question --

1. @sledge mentioned "HPD" -- which vendor is that?

2. if we were to sell the ring outright and go to a new jeweler, do you have any suggestions for places to resell? I've heard things about Abe Mor -- would they be a good option?

Thank you again all!

 

[rockysalamander]

1. HPD = High Peformance Diamonds. They sell Crafted By Infinity super-ideals.

2. For pre-owned, you take a BIG hit in what you can sell for, usually you can only get back 40% of the cost. You can look at selling on the LoupeTroop, DiamondBistro, etc. I'd personally keep the diamond for a pendant and buy a new stone when finances allow.

...You could see what the jeweler you bought from would offer you to buy it back (some do and some don't). But, if you can do better than 40% of what you paid, that might be worth it.

 

[ringo865]

It do s look nice in your ring. THey did a great job on the prongs too! But yah that cut is not what we here recommend for an ering. Shallow stones can be OK for pendants and or earrings. Your stone is really shallow; however, I still think it would make a nice pendant when the time comes for a new ering. Then you won't take a loss at all and the nice folks here would happily help you find a beautifully cut stone within your new upgrade budget when the time comes.