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Fla. doctor investigated in badly botched abortion

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luckystar112

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WARNING to those of you with weak stomaches, big hearts.

Just figured I'd put that out there.



With that being said.......
I am so disgusted and sad about this in so many ways.
First, 23 WEEKS?!?!?!?
Second, this is murder. Plain and simple.
I CANNOT believe that story.
 

SarahLovesJS

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Oh yeah, sorry think you for adding that warning Lucky I didn't think to add it! Yeah, it's definitely sad.

ETA: I went back and added a warning!
 

LAJennifer

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Here is an abortion clinic where murder takes place. Absolutely no question about that.
 

Maria D

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so unspeakably tragic

I thought the same as you Luckystar, 23 weeks???
 

Lauren8211

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Wow.

I''m about as pro-choice as they come, but this is seriously disturbing.
 

movie zombie

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Date: 2/5/2009 9:12:33 PM
Author: elledizzy5
Wow.

I''m about as pro-choice as they come, but this is seriously disturbing.
+1.

mz
 

Kaleigh

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Date: 2/5/2009 9:57:51 PM
Author: movie zombie

Date: 2/5/2009 9:12:33 PM
Author: elledizzy5
Wow.

I''m about as pro-choice as they come, but this is seriously disturbing.
+1.

mz
+2 Have no words.
 

diamondseeker2006

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I really can''t bear to read it. But suffice it to say, I am not pro-abortion because of the reality of it.
 

Irishgrrrl

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Date: 2/5/2009 10:02:40 PM
Author: Kaleigh

Date: 2/5/2009 9:57:51 PM
Author: movie zombie


Date: 2/5/2009 9:12:33 PM
Author: elledizzy5
Wow.

I''m about as pro-choice as they come, but this is seriously disturbing.
+1.

mz
+2 Have no words.
+3
 

AllieGator

Shiny_Rock
Joined
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Messages
316
I''ll echo what others have said above...I''m pro-choice, but this makes me sick to my stomach. I don''t like abortion anyway, and this is straight up murder. I hope this man goes to jail.
 

beebrisk

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Date: 2/5/2009 9:12:33 PM
Author: elledizzy5
Wow.


I''m about as pro-choice as they come, but this is seriously disturbing.
And you don''t find flooding a woman''s womb with saline solution and sucking a 23 week old child out with the "proper" apparatus "seriously disturbing"?

Someone please tell me how one form of hideous child murder is less or more disturbing than the other. Abortion is murder, whether the death is caused in the womb or on a cold hospital floor.

It''s ugly, it''s graphic, but it''s the truth. And there''s no hiding from it if an HONEST discussion of abortion is to happen. It''s easy to deny the reality of it when you don''t see it. But this story has illustrated, in all too tragic and horrific detail, that a baby is a baby--in the womb or out.
 

E B

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beeb, we discussed abortion for pages what, a week ago? You'd care to spark another conversation with no end? Arguing the 'ugly details' is pointless- nobody wants to see a 23-week-old fetus terminated, but it wasn't (and isn't) our decision to make, is it? That's where the two roads divide every. single. time, and we've been through it several times (too many).
 

neatfreak

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Date: 2/7/2009 2:38:10 AM
Author: beebrisk
Date: 2/5/2009 9:12:33 PM

Author: elledizzy5

Wow.



I'm about as pro-choice as they come, but this is seriously disturbing.

And you don't find flooding a woman's womb with saline solution and sucking a 23 week old child out with the 'proper' apparatus 'seriously disturbing'?


Someone please tell me how one form of hideous child murder is less or more disturbing than the other. Abortion is murder, whether the death is caused in the womb or on a cold hospital floor.


It's ugly, it's graphic, but it's the truth. And there's no hiding from it if an HONEST discussion of abortion is to happen. It's easy to deny the reality of it when you don't see it. But this story has illustrated, in all too tragic and horrific detail, that a baby is a baby--in the womb or out.
For what it's worth bee ethical places will not perform abortions at 23 weeks or anywhere close to that. And they won't do what this place did either. An unethical doctor will do unethical things regardless of the laws.
 

beebrisk

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Date: 2/7/2009 11:15:53 AM
Author: neatfreak
Date: 2/7/2009 2:38:10 AM

Author: beebrisk

Date: 2/5/2009 9:12:33 PM


Author: elledizzy5


Wow.




I'm about as pro-choice as they come, but this is seriously disturbing.


And you don't find flooding a woman's womb with saline solution and sucking a 23 week old child out with the 'proper' apparatus 'seriously disturbing'?



Someone please tell me how one form of hideous child murder is less or more disturbing than the other. Abortion is murder, whether the death is caused in the womb or on a cold hospital floor.



It's ugly, it's graphic, but it's the truth. And there's no hiding from it if an HONEST discussion of abortion is to happen. It's easy to deny the reality of it when you don't see it. But this story has illustrated, in all too tragic and horrific detail, that a baby is a baby--in the womb or out.

For what it's worth bee ethical places will not perform abortions at 23 weeks or anywhere close to that. And they won't do what this place did either. An unethical doctor will do unethical things regardless of the laws.
Abortion on demand is perfectly legal in my state, up to 24 weeks. I'm sure it is elsewhere.
 

beebrisk

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Date: 2/7/2009 10:38:01 AM
Author: EBree
beeb, we discussed abortion for pages what, a week ago? You''d care to spark another conversation with no end? Arguing the ''ugly details'' is pointless- nobody wants to see a 23-week-old fetus terminated, but it wasn''t (and isn''t) our decision to make, is it? That''s where the two roads divide every. single. time, and we''ve been through it several times (too many).
You may have noticed, I didn''t bring the subject up here. I responded to someone''s post.

I guess I just should have said "Wow, that''s terrible!" and moved on so as not to annoy anyone?
 

movie zombie

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Date: 2/7/2009 10:38:01 AM
Author: EBree
beeb, we discussed abortion for pages what, a week ago? You''d care to spark another conversation with no end? Arguing the ''ugly details'' is pointless- nobody wants to see a 23-week-old fetus terminated, but it wasn''t (and isn''t) our decision to make, is it? That''s where the two roads divide every. single. time, and we''ve been through it several times (too many).
+1000.

mz
 

Lauren8211

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Date: 2/7/2009 2:38:10 AM
Author: beebrisk
Date: 2/5/2009 9:12:33 PM

Author: elledizzy5

Wow.



I'm about as pro-choice as they come, but this is seriously disturbing.

And you don't find flooding a woman's womb with saline solution and sucking a 23 week old child out with the 'proper' apparatus 'seriously disturbing'?


Someone please tell me how one form of hideous child murder is less or more disturbing than the other. Abortion is murder, whether the death is caused in the womb or on a cold hospital floor.


It's ugly, it's graphic, but it's the truth. And there's no hiding from it if an HONEST discussion of abortion is to happen. It's easy to deny the reality of it when you don't see it. But this story has illustrated, in all too tragic and horrific detail, that a baby is a baby--in the womb or out.
When did I say that "sucking" a 23 week old child out of a womb is OK? Please don't make assumptions about my feelings. I'm pro-choice because it is NOT the governments place to decide what a woman chooses. At 23 weeks, no, I don't necessarily agree with abortion unless the mother's health is at risk.

I think that messing up the dilation and delivering a baby and dumping it out is sick.

And an "honest" discussion about abortion will occur when people don't assume just because I'm pro-choice I'd like to go around aborting babies at 6 months.
 

LtlFirecracker

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Messages
4,837
Just to clarify, performing an abortion on a 23 week fetus is beyond the limits of Roe vs Wade. Roe vs Wade protects the right to have an abortion up to viability. In this day in age, a 23 weaker would be considered viable. Now very few 23 week infants survive, and pretty much all that do have a major disability. In most places, parents can choose weather to give full support, or give no support, and allow natural death. That is not the same as making an active effort to end life. This doctor was way out of bounds for a legal and ethical standpoint and that is why he lost his license.

ETA: I am saying this because I am worried this extreme example that is not protected under our laws will be used as an example of why abortion should be illegal. I see abortion as a right that has been granted, but comes with big responsibility on both the patient and the person performing it.
 

beebrisk

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Joined
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Messages
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Date: 2/7/2009 3:58:13 PM
Author: elledizzy5
Date: 2/7/2009 2:38:10 AM

Author: beebrisk

Date: 2/5/2009 9:12:33 PM


Author: elledizzy5


Wow.




I''m about as pro-choice as they come, but this is seriously disturbing.


And you don''t find flooding a woman''s womb with saline solution and sucking a 23 week old child out with the ''proper'' apparatus ''seriously disturbing''?



Someone please tell me how one form of hideous child murder is less or more disturbing than the other. Abortion is murder, whether the death is caused in the womb or on a cold hospital floor.



It''s ugly, it''s graphic, but it''s the truth. And there''s no hiding from it if an HONEST discussion of abortion is to happen. It''s easy to deny the reality of it when you don''t see it. But this story has illustrated, in all too tragic and horrific detail, that a baby is a baby--in the womb or out.

When did I say that ''sucking'' a 23 week old child out of a womb is OK? Please don''t make assumptions about my feelings. I''m pro-choice because it is NOT the governments place to decide what a woman chooses. At 23 weeks, no, I don''t necessarily agree with abortion unless the mother''s health is at risk.


I think that messing up the dilation and delivering a baby and dumping it out is sick.


And an ''honest'' discussion about abortion will occur when people don''t assume just because I''m pro-choice I''d like to go around aborting babies at 6 months.
I never said you said it was "okay" and I never made an assumption about your feelings.

The point of my post was this: If that doctor had made it to the exam room on time, no one would have ever heard about this abortion. If the doctor had performed the abortion as planned, there would still be a death of a 23 week old fetus under horrific conditions. The act that caused the death would have been different, but it would have been a ugly death no less. Would anyone however be as "disgusted" or horrified by it?

You may say that a 24 week abortion is not right, that it''s inhumane and you would be right. However, it is legal. And despite what some have said here, there are PLENTY of so-called good and "ethical" doctors who perform the procedure.

In my state of NY, you can walk into a Planned Parenthood center and abort a 22 week old fetus. In states like Arizona, Planned Parenthood clinics will perform one at 24 weeks. Is Planned Parenthood considered unethical by pro-choice people? If so, I''ve never heard THAT argument! If 23 or 24 weeks is "sick", where DO you draw the line? 20 weeks? 19 weeks? When? This is something rarely heard by the Pro-Choice crowd. "Keeping it safe and legal" is pretty much the standard line. Any honest discussion of abortion by a Pro Choice group or individual would have to include the REALITY of what happens when a 20-something week old life is the victim of a D&E since it is available, legally, every day.

That said, I am against abortion at any stage and don''t have any interest in arguing "viability" since it'' irrelevant to me. But I''d like to hear an organization like Planned Parenthood (undoubtedly the most influential voice in the Pro-Choice movement) discuss the REAL facts about what they are doing, how they are doing it and let the world see it first hand. I have to believe many more people would suddenly be "disgusted" by the whole thing.
 

E B

Ideal_Rock
Joined
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Messages
9,488
Here we go again. I'll bite, as it's a Saturday afternoon and I'm bored.

Date: 2/7/2009 5:34:52 PM
Author: beebrisk

If 23 or 24 weeks is 'sick', where DO you draw the line? 20 weeks? 19 weeks? When? This is something rarely heard by the Pro-Choice crowd. 'Keeping it safe and legal' is pretty much the standard line.
Exactly. Where DO you draw the line when it comes to such differing views? To add to the confusion, many pro-lifers are okay with lines drawn later in pregnancies when it comes to rape, incest, and the life of the mother, so where are THOSE lines drawn? Imagine the issues that'd come with deciding who can have one, and when in each of those situations.

Date: 2/7/2009 5:34:52 PM
Author: beebrisk

But I'd like to hear an organization like Planned Parenthood (undoubtedly the most influential voice in the Pro-Choice movement) discuss the REAL facts about what they are doing, how they are doing it and let the world see it first hand. I have to believe many more people would suddenly be 'disgusted' by the whole thing.
Have you been to the Planned Parenthood website? More specifically to the In-Clinic Abortion Procedures page? I see no photos of cupcakes and rainbows, just the facts- a bulleted list of steps taken and an extensive summary of what the patient may feel in the future. I'm guessing they give this information to all women considering abortion who haven't visited the website, and they have specially trained staff available to speak to every woman about her choices before the procedure is done. So what's your point, exactly? They aren't trying to gloss anything over like you've implied.
 

neatfreak

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Feb 17, 2007
Messages
14,167
Date: 2/7/2009 4:02:51 PM
Author: LtlFirecracker
Just to clarify, performing an abortion on a 23 week fetus is beyond the limits of Roe vs Wade. Roe vs Wade protects the right to have an abortion up to viability. In this day in age, a 23 weaker would be considered viable. Now very few 23 week infants survive, and pretty much all that do have a major disability. In most places, parents can choose weather to give full support, or give no support, and allow natural death. That is not the same as making an active effort to end life. This doctor was way out of bounds for a legal and ethical standpoint and that is why he lost his license.


ETA: I am saying this because I am worried this extreme example that is not protected under our laws will be used as an example of why abortion should be illegal. I see abortion as a right that has been granted, but comes with big responsibility on both the patient and the person performing it.
Well said.
 

diamondseeker2006

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jan 11, 2006
Messages
56,001
Date: 2/7/2009 3:58:13 PM
Author: elledizzy5

Date: 2/7/2009 2:38:10 AM
Author: beebrisk

Date: 2/5/2009 9:12:33 PM

Author: elledizzy5

Wow.



I''m about as pro-choice as they come, but this is seriously disturbing.

And you don''t find flooding a woman''s womb with saline solution and sucking a 23 week old child out with the ''proper'' apparatus ''seriously disturbing''?


Someone please tell me how one form of hideous child murder is less or more disturbing than the other. Abortion is murder, whether the death is caused in the womb or on a cold hospital floor.


It''s ugly, it''s graphic, but it''s the truth. And there''s no hiding from it if an HONEST discussion of abortion is to happen. It''s easy to deny the reality of it when you don''t see it. But this story has illustrated, in all too tragic and horrific detail, that a baby is a baby--in the womb or out.
When did I say that ''sucking'' a 23 week old child out of a womb is OK? Please don''t make assumptions about my feelings. I''m pro-choice because it is NOT the governments place to decide what a woman chooses. At 23 weeks, no, I don''t necessarily agree with abortion unless the mother''s health is at risk.

I think that messing up the dilation and delivering a baby and dumping it out is sick.

And an ''honest'' discussion about abortion will occur when people don''t assume just because I''m pro-choice I''d like to go around aborting babies at 6 months.
Then we need to make it illegal, because it makes our culture pretty barbaric to approve of the legality of killing a baby at 23 weeks. How can you say it is the mother''s "choice" to kill that baby and but one that is full term?
 

diamondseeker2006

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jan 11, 2006
Messages
56,001
Date: 2/7/2009 5:34:52 PM
Author: beebrisk


I never said you said it was ''okay'' and I never made an assumption about your feelings.

The point of my post was this: If that doctor had made it to the exam room on time, no one would have ever heard about this abortion. If the doctor had performed the abortion as planned, there would still be a death of a 23 week old fetus under horrific conditions. The act that caused the death would have been different, but it would have been a ugly death no less. Would anyone however be as ''disgusted'' or horrified by it?

You may say that a 24 week abortion is not right, that it''s inhumane and you would be right. However, it is legal. And despite what some have said here, there are PLENTY of so-called good and ''ethical'' doctors who perform the procedure.

In my state of NY, you can walk into a Planned Parenthood center and abort a 22 week old fetus. In states like Arizona, Planned Parenthood clinics will perform one at 24 weeks. Is Planned Parenthood considered unethical by pro-choice people? If so, I''ve never heard THAT argument! If 23 or 24 weeks is ''sick'', where DO you draw the line? 20 weeks? 19 weeks? When? This is something rarely heard by the Pro-Choice crowd. ''Keeping it safe and legal'' is pretty much the standard line. Any honest discussion of abortion by a Pro Choice group or individual would have to include the REALITY of what happens when a 20-something week old life is the victim of a D&E since it is available, legally, every day.

That said, I am against abortion at any stage and don''t have any interest in arguing ''viability'' since it'' irrelevant to me. But I''d like to hear an organization like Planned Parenthood (undoubtedly the most influential voice in the Pro-Choice movement) discuss the REAL facts about what they are doing, how they are doing it and let the world see it first hand. I have to believe many more people would suddenly be ''disgusted'' by the whole thing.
Bee, try as I might to stay out of these threads, I can''t in good conscience always ignore them and let you and a couple of others defend the right to life alone. But I just want you to know that whether I post or not, I really appreciate your steadfastness on this topic. Abortion is horrific, and truly, we need more reality like this to wake us up from this surreal acceptance of something so horrible. Reminds me of the Germans who ignored the Holocaust, seriously.
 

beebrisk

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Joined
Dec 18, 2005
Messages
1,000
Date: 2/7/2009 5:59:33 PM
Author: EBree
Here we go again. I''ll bite, as it''s a Saturday afternoon and I''m bored.


Date: 2/7/2009 5:34:52 PM

Author: beebrisk


If 23 or 24 weeks is ''sick'', where DO you draw the line? 20 weeks? 19 weeks? When? This is something rarely heard by the Pro-Choice crowd. ''Keeping it safe and legal'' is pretty much the standard line.

Exactly. Where DO you draw the line when it comes to such differing views? To add to the confusion, many pro-lifers are okay with lines drawn later in pregnancies when it comes to rape, incest, and the life of the mother, so where are THOSE lines drawn? Imagine the issues that''d come with deciding who can have one, and when in each of those situations.


Date: 2/7/2009 5:34:52 PM

Author: beebrisk


But I''d like to hear an organization like Planned Parenthood (undoubtedly the most influential voice in the Pro-Choice movement) discuss the REAL facts about what they are doing, how they are doing it and let the world see it first hand. I have to believe many more people would suddenly be ''disgusted'' by the whole thing.

Have you been to the Planned Parenthood website? More specifically to the In-Clinic Abortion Procedures page? I see no photos of cupcakes and rainbows, just the facts- a bulleted list of steps taken and an extensive summary of what the patient may feel in the future. I''m guessing they give this information to all women considering abortion who haven''t visited the website, and they have specially trained staff available to speak to every woman about her choices before the procedure is done. So what''s your point, exactly? They aren''t trying to gloss anything over like you''ve implied.
I am sure that they must offer disclosure to any woman who comes in for an abortion. And yes, there is a matter of fact list on their Abortion Procedures pages of what those are. So, while they don''t use "cupcakes and rainbows", they don''t exactly go into detail. It''s clinical, period.

What I am saying is, that when they are stating their case, in public, you do NOT hear about the graphic, horrible details of what an abortion actually entails. You only hear about that from the Pro Life side. I''m suggesting that if they did discuss the REALITY of the actual abortion procedure, if they detailed what happens TO THE BABY during a "D&E" or saline abortion, some might actually be as "disgusted" as they were when they read the story here.

As for drawing the line, my point is that I just don''t think it can be done...And I don''t think it SHOULD be done. At any stage.
 

beebrisk

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Dec 18, 2005
Messages
1,000
Date: 2/7/2009 7:17:34 PM
Author: diamondseeker2006
Date: 2/7/2009 5:34:52 PM

Author: beebrisk



I never said you said it was ''okay'' and I never made an assumption about your feelings.


The point of my post was this: If that doctor had made it to the exam room on time, no one would have ever heard about this abortion. If the doctor had performed the abortion as planned, there would still be a death of a 23 week old fetus under horrific conditions. The act that caused the death would have been different, but it would have been a ugly death no less. Would anyone however be as ''disgusted'' or horrified by it?


You may say that a 24 week abortion is not right, that it''s inhumane and you would be right. However, it is legal. And despite what some have said here, there are PLENTY of so-called good and ''ethical'' doctors who perform the procedure.


In my state of NY, you can walk into a Planned Parenthood center and abort a 22 week old fetus. In states like Arizona, Planned Parenthood clinics will perform one at 24 weeks. Is Planned Parenthood considered unethical by pro-choice people? If so, I''ve never heard THAT argument! If 23 or 24 weeks is ''sick'', where DO you draw the line? 20 weeks? 19 weeks? When? This is something rarely heard by the Pro-Choice crowd. ''Keeping it safe and legal'' is pretty much the standard line. Any honest discussion of abortion by a Pro Choice group or individual would have to include the REALITY of what happens when a 20-something week old life is the victim of a D&E since it is available, legally, every day.


That said, I am against abortion at any stage and don''t have any interest in arguing ''viability'' since it'' irrelevant to me. But I''d like to hear an organization like Planned Parenthood (undoubtedly the most influential voice in the Pro-Choice movement) discuss the REAL facts about what they are doing, how they are doing it and let the world see it first hand. I have to believe many more people would suddenly be ''disgusted'' by the whole thing.
Bee, try as I might to stay out of these threads, I can''t in good conscience always ignore them and let you and a couple of others defend the right to life alone. But I just want you to know that whether I post or not, I really appreciate your steadfastness on this topic. Abortion is horrific, and truly, we need more reality like this to wake us up from this surreal acceptance of something so horrible. Reminds me of the Germans who ignored the Holocaust, seriously.
Yup. It''s ALL about denial. After all, how can ANYONE defend this?? The only way to do that would be to deny the reality of it and deny a baby is a human life.

The only difference between this baby and other defenseless victims of abortions, is that he or she died tragically in a trash bag and not in a womb. Apparently many seem to believe the latter is justifiable and should remain perfectly "safe and legal."

Thank you for your support DiamondSeeker
 

luckystar112

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jan 8, 2007
Messages
3,962
Date: 2/7/2009 7:17:34 PM
Author: diamondseeker2006

Bee, try as I might to stay out of these threads, I can''t in good conscience always ignore them and let you and a couple of others defend the right to life alone. But I just want you to know that whether I post or not, I really appreciate your steadfastness on this topic. Abortion is horrific, and truly, we need more reality like this to wake us up from this surreal acceptance of something so horrible. Reminds me of the Germans who ignored the Holocaust, seriously.

I read something one time that sort of touches upon that. I can''t for the life of me remember where, but the basic idea was that in the future abortions will cease and will be considered the most barbaric part of our culture. I remember whoever wrote it was pro-choice herself. It was a really interesting point of view.

 

E B

Ideal_Rock
Joined
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Messages
9,488
Date: 2/7/2009 7:47:53 PM
Author: beebrisk

Yup. It's ALL about denial. After all, how can ANYONE defend this?? The only way to do that would be to deny the reality of it and deny a baby is a human life.

The only difference between this baby and other defenseless victims of abortions, is that he or she died tragically in a trash bag and not in a womb. Apparently many seem to believe the latter is justifiable and should remain perfectly 'safe and legal.'

Thank you for your support DiamondSeeker
I understand you're passionate about this subject, but you're starting to enter 'personal attack' territory. Keep in mind that this subject isn't black and white. Many of us pro-choicers (myself included) would not choose abortion for ourselves and don't like that it happens, but we don't feel we can make that decision for others. Ka-peesh?
 

beebrisk

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Joined
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Messages
1,000
Date: 2/7/2009 8:17:59 PM
Author: EBree
Date: 2/7/2009 7:47:53 PM

Author: beebrisk


Yup. It''s ALL about denial. After all, how can ANYONE defend this?? The only way to do that would be to deny the reality of it and deny a baby is a human life.


The only difference between this baby and other defenseless victims of abortions, is that he or she died tragically in a trash bag and not in a womb. Apparently many seem to believe the latter is justifiable and should remain perfectly ''safe and legal.''


Thank you for your support DiamondSeeker

I understand you''re passionate about this subject, but you''re starting to enter ''personal attack'' territory. Keep in mind that this subject isn''t black and white. Many of us pro-choicers (myself included) would not choose abortion for ourselves and don''t like that it happens, but we don''t feel we can make that decision for others. Ka-peesh?
Please do not accuse me of a personal attack. In no way was my response to Diamondseeker directed at, or about YOU. Uncalled for. Period.
 

E B

Ideal_Rock
Joined
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Messages
9,488
Date: 2/7/2009 8:33:31 PM
Author: beebrisk

Please do not accuse me of a personal attack. In no way was my response to Diamondseeker directed at, or about YOU. Uncalled for. Period.
Whatever you say. As predicted, this 'debate' went absolutely nowhere, but it was fun while it lasted!
 
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