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Then allocate those (able to work bodies) who are on social programs to work in fields, etc, etc...kenny|1471132266|4065678 said:
Five Reasons Illegal Immigration Will Destroy America
- Thread starter siv1
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Gypsy
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I am (currently pissing off my cat who is sitting on my lap), going to come at this from my personal perspective as an immigrant.
My former country, Iran, imploded into civil war in the late 70s. I was born in 1975. The old regime was a monarchy and the 'elite' of the country at the time were out of touch progressives who did not understand the true threat of fundamentalist religion that the masses devoted their lives to.
The elite were very Westernized. Many of them were educated in Western countries. My own father and uncle went to fantastic US universities for undergraduate and advanced degrees. My grandfather spent years in the US and abroad as part of his airforce training (this is when the US and Iran were allies).
The elite drank, they wore mini skirts (it was the 70s, think disco), they supported Western policies that would move their country toward their ideal of Westernism.
My family was very elite in Iran. My grandfather was the Monarch's pilot. And my father was the director of one of the largest oil fields in Iran. As a child I had my own petting zoo and was treated like a princesses. Literally. I had staff.
Seething underneath this veneer of Western progressiveness was a third world populace that was devoted to a fundamentalist version of an already restrictive religion. Islam. A populace that were treated like peasants by this elite. They starved and scraped and worked round the clock and the rich got richer and the poor got poorer. Conveniently, Iran resides right next to the USSR. So while the monarchy and the elite who supported them were deaf to the plight of the populace. Think Marie Antoinette. The populace was either retreating further and further into the promise of the riches of the "next life" in their devotion to religion. OR alternately, if religion wasn't their thing, they were dazzled by Communism. The promise of everyone being equal. Of having no Monarch, no class system, and an economy where everyone reaped the rewards equally.
(This is in part what scares me so much about the Tea Party. I can see them dragging this great country into a civil war with their fundamentalist Christian fervor. Fortunately the US isn't Iran in the 70s. But that is not proof against the threat, we must be vigilant. But I digress.)
Iran erupted in a violent fundamentalist revolution and heads, LITERALLY, began to role. The Elite were on the run for their lives desperate to escape the Communists and the Fundamentalists that had joined forces to overthrow the Monarchy and all it's traces. My family was double black listed. Once for my grandfather's status, and a second time for my father's status. If we were caught we would literally be put to death, or put in a prison system that was worse than death. Especially for women who were brutally raped repeatedly and if they became pregnant were often kicked to death.
My aunt was married to a lovely American man and lived here. And my uncle was already here, at the University of Michigan, and was happy to stay. So unlike other supporters of the Monarchy who fled to Europe or Australia, my family fled to the US. My father did not come with us. Just my mother, my grandfather and me. My grandmother stayed behind for a short time before joining us.
My mother and I entered this country on standard visitor Visas. We could not go back, but the Visa was limited in its time period allowance as we were supposed to only be visiting. And the US was being flooded with refugees just like us. As a result of my aunt's Husband's familiarity with the countries laws, and on the advice of an immigration lawyer, my mother and I stayed.
We were illegally here for a short time. We were able to convert this pretty quickly to a legal extended Visa, and from there into an application for permanent residency that was approved.
We were VERY lucky. My grandmother, optimistic, went back to Iran as her sister's family had the clout in the newly forming government to have her personal blacklist status revoked. She was hoping to be able to liquidate our estates and be able to bring that money to us. That didn't happen. She was trapped there for 4 years, her life in danger, all our estates and accounts frozen, some seized completely.
My family did not want me raised as a target. Already the mood in the US was turning very bitter toward Iran and Iranians. The Hostage Crisis was our worst nightmare. They stopped speaking Farsi to me completely. They wanted me raised without any accent, as their accents already targeted them. My whole family, with the exception of my grandmother were fluent in English and college educated.
We moved to CA in the early 80s. My entire family faced extreme racism and xenophobia. My mother in a routine traffic stop in LA was in fear for her life when a cop found out she was from Iran. I was in the car and watched and listened as he abused her, physically and verbally, while she grovelled. My 4th grade substitute teacher read my name out loud during roll call, stopped, asked me where my family was from and when I responded honestly, she asked me in front of the whole class if both my parents were terrorist, or just one.
My mother became a citizen before I was 18. So I was automatically naturalized.
Our family members who tried to come to the US after us were not successful for the most part. Iranians were not wanted here. The few that did succeed did so with extreme difficulty. They were subjected to extremely rigorous screenings and requirements.
I know that many people in the states feel that it is too easy to become a citizen here. It is NOT. It is actually a rather miserable process with a large number of common sense safe guards, MOST people are unaware of. I have watched my family members live this.
With regard to speaking English. I am more proficient in the English language than 98% of Americans. Period.
It is very easy to say, "you must speak English." And it is as helpful and as unrealistic as telling a homeless person: "get a job".
Why? Well, let me explain.
My grandmother's heart was broken by the Revolution in Iran, the loss of everything she had known, everything generations of our family had built. Her entire life was destroyed. She DID NOT WANT TO LEAVE. But she had to chose between being in her country (under extreme security and risking imprisonment at the whim at any official) and being with her family.
To say my grandmother was depressed is an understatement. On top of it, because of the Russian invasions that tormented the region of Iran where she was raised, my grandmother never completed the 8th grade. And she had learning disabilities.
Immigrants are people. People have different issues from one another. They have different capabilities. Some are smart. Others are not. Some have learning disabilities.
In this narrative it's my grandmother. She never learned very much English. She certainly wasn't fluent. And frankly she did not have the capacity, emotionally, or otherwise to learn the language.
My grandfather on the other hand spoke English fluently. I used to go shopping with my grandfather. Who was the smartest man I have ever known. He was literally a mathematical genuis and a pilot. And I would watch my grandfather insulted and demeaned by arrogant, under educated sales people and shop keepers who would make NO EFFORT at all to understand his very LIGHT accent.
We went one day to Macy's to buy a mattress. I was 12. My grandfather was treated like a moron by the sales person. An 20 year old who probably didn't have half the education by grandfather did in his dead end job, IN FRONT OF MY GRANDFATHER looks at me and rudely, "Do YOU at least speak the language???" I responded, "My grandfather," gesturing to him, "Is fluent in English. He is speaking it now. If there is a problem, perhaps it is not with his English but with yours." My grandfather, proud man that he was, admonished me for being rude to the man. The man, completely ignoring what I said, OR what my grandfather said looks at me and says, "Welll you are either going to have to translate for HIM, or come back with an adult that can actually speak the language."
That is what immigrants experience here. This is how we are treated.
First of all there is NO empathy for the fact that some people are simply not ABLE to learn another language. They, LIKE SO MANY AMERICANS, are barely fluent in their own. They do not have advanced educations. They may not even be literate in their own languages.
Does that mean they have nothing to contribute to this country? NO. Not at all. Do they deserve your scorn and derision for not learning English? No.
And you know what? Many immigrants are bi-lingual. Like me. I can speak both Farsi and English.
I have been at cafe's with my mother speaking to her in Farsi, or in line at a store and had some rude arrogant White Person will feel entitled to make a snide LOUD remark like "LEARN ENGLISH." Or "SPEAK ENGLISH". Just because I am bi-lingual BROWN and do not happen to be speaking English at that moment in time. I have a BA in English and a Law Degree from Georgetown. Most of the people that make these comments barely have their GEDs. They read at an 8th grade level at best. And they feel entitled to their rudeness.
That is the immigrant experience in the US. And that is from someone who has been fortunate enough to be firmly in the middle class of America and in the liberal state of CA.
This is why INTOLERANCE for me is such a huge issue. And why I see RED when people say they want immigration REFORM.
You want immigration reform? WHAT DO YOU WANT REFORMED? Because whenever I ask this question of ANYONE that says they want "reform" they have NEVER EVER EVER been able to point to specific flaws in the CURRENT system and tell WHAT THEY WANT CHANGED about it.
So I have to ask: Do you really want "reform"? (And Redwood, this is not aimed at you). Or do you just not want any more BROWN people entering your country. DO you REALLY just use REFORM as a politically acceptable way of saying: I want to be able pick and chose who I let into the country based on my own criteria of who is WORTHY, and that criteria includes what their religion is and what the color of their skin is.
Because that's not reform. That's just racism.
My former country, Iran, imploded into civil war in the late 70s. I was born in 1975. The old regime was a monarchy and the 'elite' of the country at the time were out of touch progressives who did not understand the true threat of fundamentalist religion that the masses devoted their lives to.
The elite were very Westernized. Many of them were educated in Western countries. My own father and uncle went to fantastic US universities for undergraduate and advanced degrees. My grandfather spent years in the US and abroad as part of his airforce training (this is when the US and Iran were allies).
The elite drank, they wore mini skirts (it was the 70s, think disco), they supported Western policies that would move their country toward their ideal of Westernism.
My family was very elite in Iran. My grandfather was the Monarch's pilot. And my father was the director of one of the largest oil fields in Iran. As a child I had my own petting zoo and was treated like a princesses. Literally. I had staff.
Seething underneath this veneer of Western progressiveness was a third world populace that was devoted to a fundamentalist version of an already restrictive religion. Islam. A populace that were treated like peasants by this elite. They starved and scraped and worked round the clock and the rich got richer and the poor got poorer. Conveniently, Iran resides right next to the USSR. So while the monarchy and the elite who supported them were deaf to the plight of the populace. Think Marie Antoinette. The populace was either retreating further and further into the promise of the riches of the "next life" in their devotion to religion. OR alternately, if religion wasn't their thing, they were dazzled by Communism. The promise of everyone being equal. Of having no Monarch, no class system, and an economy where everyone reaped the rewards equally.
(This is in part what scares me so much about the Tea Party. I can see them dragging this great country into a civil war with their fundamentalist Christian fervor. Fortunately the US isn't Iran in the 70s. But that is not proof against the threat, we must be vigilant. But I digress.)
Iran erupted in a violent fundamentalist revolution and heads, LITERALLY, began to role. The Elite were on the run for their lives desperate to escape the Communists and the Fundamentalists that had joined forces to overthrow the Monarchy and all it's traces. My family was double black listed. Once for my grandfather's status, and a second time for my father's status. If we were caught we would literally be put to death, or put in a prison system that was worse than death. Especially for women who were brutally raped repeatedly and if they became pregnant were often kicked to death.
My aunt was married to a lovely American man and lived here. And my uncle was already here, at the University of Michigan, and was happy to stay. So unlike other supporters of the Monarchy who fled to Europe or Australia, my family fled to the US. My father did not come with us. Just my mother, my grandfather and me. My grandmother stayed behind for a short time before joining us.
My mother and I entered this country on standard visitor Visas. We could not go back, but the Visa was limited in its time period allowance as we were supposed to only be visiting. And the US was being flooded with refugees just like us. As a result of my aunt's Husband's familiarity with the countries laws, and on the advice of an immigration lawyer, my mother and I stayed.
We were illegally here for a short time. We were able to convert this pretty quickly to a legal extended Visa, and from there into an application for permanent residency that was approved.
We were VERY lucky. My grandmother, optimistic, went back to Iran as her sister's family had the clout in the newly forming government to have her personal blacklist status revoked. She was hoping to be able to liquidate our estates and be able to bring that money to us. That didn't happen. She was trapped there for 4 years, her life in danger, all our estates and accounts frozen, some seized completely.
My family did not want me raised as a target. Already the mood in the US was turning very bitter toward Iran and Iranians. The Hostage Crisis was our worst nightmare. They stopped speaking Farsi to me completely. They wanted me raised without any accent, as their accents already targeted them. My whole family, with the exception of my grandmother were fluent in English and college educated.
We moved to CA in the early 80s. My entire family faced extreme racism and xenophobia. My mother in a routine traffic stop in LA was in fear for her life when a cop found out she was from Iran. I was in the car and watched and listened as he abused her, physically and verbally, while she grovelled. My 4th grade substitute teacher read my name out loud during roll call, stopped, asked me where my family was from and when I responded honestly, she asked me in front of the whole class if both my parents were terrorist, or just one.
My mother became a citizen before I was 18. So I was automatically naturalized.
Our family members who tried to come to the US after us were not successful for the most part. Iranians were not wanted here. The few that did succeed did so with extreme difficulty. They were subjected to extremely rigorous screenings and requirements.
I know that many people in the states feel that it is too easy to become a citizen here. It is NOT. It is actually a rather miserable process with a large number of common sense safe guards, MOST people are unaware of. I have watched my family members live this.
With regard to speaking English. I am more proficient in the English language than 98% of Americans. Period.
It is very easy to say, "you must speak English." And it is as helpful and as unrealistic as telling a homeless person: "get a job".
Why? Well, let me explain.
My grandmother's heart was broken by the Revolution in Iran, the loss of everything she had known, everything generations of our family had built. Her entire life was destroyed. She DID NOT WANT TO LEAVE. But she had to chose between being in her country (under extreme security and risking imprisonment at the whim at any official) and being with her family.
To say my grandmother was depressed is an understatement. On top of it, because of the Russian invasions that tormented the region of Iran where she was raised, my grandmother never completed the 8th grade. And she had learning disabilities.
Immigrants are people. People have different issues from one another. They have different capabilities. Some are smart. Others are not. Some have learning disabilities.
In this narrative it's my grandmother. She never learned very much English. She certainly wasn't fluent. And frankly she did not have the capacity, emotionally, or otherwise to learn the language.
My grandfather on the other hand spoke English fluently. I used to go shopping with my grandfather. Who was the smartest man I have ever known. He was literally a mathematical genuis and a pilot. And I would watch my grandfather insulted and demeaned by arrogant, under educated sales people and shop keepers who would make NO EFFORT at all to understand his very LIGHT accent.
We went one day to Macy's to buy a mattress. I was 12. My grandfather was treated like a moron by the sales person. An 20 year old who probably didn't have half the education by grandfather did in his dead end job, IN FRONT OF MY GRANDFATHER looks at me and rudely, "Do YOU at least speak the language???" I responded, "My grandfather," gesturing to him, "Is fluent in English. He is speaking it now. If there is a problem, perhaps it is not with his English but with yours." My grandfather, proud man that he was, admonished me for being rude to the man. The man, completely ignoring what I said, OR what my grandfather said looks at me and says, "Welll you are either going to have to translate for HIM, or come back with an adult that can actually speak the language."
That is what immigrants experience here. This is how we are treated.
First of all there is NO empathy for the fact that some people are simply not ABLE to learn another language. They, LIKE SO MANY AMERICANS, are barely fluent in their own. They do not have advanced educations. They may not even be literate in their own languages.
Does that mean they have nothing to contribute to this country? NO. Not at all. Do they deserve your scorn and derision for not learning English? No.
And you know what? Many immigrants are bi-lingual. Like me. I can speak both Farsi and English.
I have been at cafe's with my mother speaking to her in Farsi, or in line at a store and had some rude arrogant White Person will feel entitled to make a snide LOUD remark like "LEARN ENGLISH." Or "SPEAK ENGLISH". Just because I am bi-lingual BROWN and do not happen to be speaking English at that moment in time. I have a BA in English and a Law Degree from Georgetown. Most of the people that make these comments barely have their GEDs. They read at an 8th grade level at best. And they feel entitled to their rudeness.
That is the immigrant experience in the US. And that is from someone who has been fortunate enough to be firmly in the middle class of America and in the liberal state of CA.
This is why INTOLERANCE for me is such a huge issue. And why I see RED when people say they want immigration REFORM.
You want immigration reform? WHAT DO YOU WANT REFORMED? Because whenever I ask this question of ANYONE that says they want "reform" they have NEVER EVER EVER been able to point to specific flaws in the CURRENT system and tell WHAT THEY WANT CHANGED about it.
So I have to ask: Do you really want "reform"? (And Redwood, this is not aimed at you). Or do you just not want any more BROWN people entering your country. DO you REALLY just use REFORM as a politically acceptable way of saying: I want to be able pick and chose who I let into the country based on my own criteria of who is WORTHY, and that criteria includes what their religion is and what the color of their skin is.
Because that's not reform. That's just racism.
Gypsy
Super_Ideal_Rock
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Gypsy|1471151613|4065767 said:
So what I am getting from the above is that you do not want to talk about immigration reform. As in reforming the existing process to make it more stringent.
You want to talk very specifically about the illegal immigrant problem.
First you'll note that the number of authorize immigrants coming into the US has stabilized.
"1. There were 11.3 million unauthorized immigrants in the U.S. in 2014. The population has remained essentially stable for five years, and currently makes up 3.5% of the nation’s population. The number of unauthorized immigrants peaked in 2007 at 12.2 million, when this group was 4% of the U.S. population." From the Pew study you cite.
So the problem is that illegal immigrants are 3.5% of the population. And this is holding steady. To anyone who doesn't understand this statistic. This doesn't mean that there are 11.3 NEW unauthorized immigrants in the US in 2014. Just that the total population of immigrants in the US, from all years, is 11.3 million.
From the same study. Mexicans make up 49% of that population. And 60% of that population lives in 6 states: TX, CA, NY, NJ, FL and Illinois.
Also, this 3.5% of the nations population accounts for 5.1% of the nations labor force. So the MAJORITY OF THEM ARE WORKING. Not sucking off welfare (as claimed in the original rant posted by siv).
And Redwood, if I am understanding your question, your concern is this: that even if we somehow manage to convert these people, in a one time action, like Regan, into LEGAL immigrants how do we stop this cycle?
OR, is your concern that, if we do convert the CURRENT population of illegal immigrants. That will only ENCOURAGE more to come here?
Either way, I think you already have the answer there in your post. The current LEGAL immigration system needs to be streamlined AND expanded (and that is going to require MONEY) to specifically develop a path for these people to become legalized residents.
There should be a registration process, that does not make these people a target. It needs to be confidential. And then there needs to be a screening process and a hearing for each person. They should have the opportunity to present evidence of their employment (without those employers being targeted or penalized) history, of their lawful and peaceful residence in this state, and then once they have gone through this process and they are certified (given a green light) they need to have a list of things they need to do. Among them is to attend basic classes on US laws and how the country works. Have a basic health exam (paid for by the state if they cannot afford it), and make sure they have their vaccinations and so forth. And then after they have completed these steps they should be given Resident status. And then they are required to retain that status, paying taxes, following the law, being productive members of society for 3-5 years (depending on how long they have already been here and what their hearing determined), and at that point, they can apply for citizenship. Once they register they are immune from deportation unless they commit a felony. Once they have their hearing if they do NOT get a green light, they are then deported. If they cannot live lawfully as Residents, they do not get to become citizens.
Also ONCE REGISTERED and given the GREEN LIGHT after a hearing these illegals should be eligible for job opportunities they would NOT otherwise be eligible for. And we should ENCOURAGE our businesses both though subsidies and our laws to HIRE these people. So that it is ATTRACTIVE to them to Register, so that they can get better jobs, health insurance (and they would pay taxes), and other benefits that they probably don't have in whatever exploitative job they currently have. And business owners should be REWARDED for hiring these people, for giving them health insurance, and giving them the opportunity to pay taxes.
I don't think that a "mass amnesty" is the answer. It just, as you have noted, feeds the cycle. Our current legal immigration system does not HELP illegals become legal. That needs to change. For the most part our current "solutions" have been deportation or turning a blind eye. Neither is working very well.
So yes, I think we need to establish a process to allow these people on an individual level, to convert. And that is going to be EXTREMELY unpopular because it will take MONEY to administer and manage such a process. That means CONGRESSIONAL APPROVAL. It is EASIER to do a mass amnesty. It doesn't need the same approvals or the same infrastructure.
That process is off the top of my head. I could not find any resources that had any useful information. But we need to ENCOURAGE these people to register by deporting them if they don't. We need to protect these people, and their employers from persecution as a result of registration and we have to keep the whole process Confidential.
I think if we do that, we will be able to manage the issue on an 'ongoing' basis. We will be able to target deportment toward those who are not going to be productive members of society and those who do not want to become legalized.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Also in response to Siv's original hysteria about crime among the immigrants:
Statistics on criminality and incarceration rates
A report on incarceration rates by the Migration Policy Institute finds the following in Table 1:
Incarceration rate for US born: 3.51% (non-Hispanic whites: 1.71%, non-Hispanic blacks: 11.61%, Hispanics ranges between 2.3% and 5.9% based on country of ethnic origin, Asians ranges from 1% to 7.2%).
Incarceration rate for foreign born: 0.86%, i.e. about a quarter of that for the US born. (non-Hispanic whites 0.57%, non-Hispanic blacks 2.47%, Hispanics ranges from 0.2% to 2.2% based on country of origin, if we exclude Puerto Ricans, who are US citizens, Asians ranges from 0.1% to 0.9%). Note the interesting fact that all foreign born ethnicities, including blacks, have lower crime rates than the average for US natives.
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Gypsy|1471157571|4065780 said:
..For once I'd agree with Gypsy ... 
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I am not sure if what they did here would work for you, but here goes, my version of reform would look something like this; firstly you vastly increase the number of legal immigrants you take and as you explained above streamline the process. If anyone has any criminal record at all for major crimes they are not allowed in period. You have some sort of amnesty where any illegal immigrants have a 6 month period to be registered and processed, with no threats of being deported until after that period ends. If you enter the country illegally after that period you can never be a citizen and if you get caught you get deported. Your govt. rather than turning a blind eye to the problem commits the resources to encourage more immigrants to come legally and makes it bloody difficult for any that do not to have things like bank accounts, drivers licences, and anything else they need to establish a life in your country. It cracks down on companies and employers that do hire them and it fines them until they learn not to do it.
So basically it sends a message that you are not anti-immigration which I think so many of the Trump nutcase supporters are, instead it sends a positive message, that you as a country that was founded by immigrants embraces both immigration and cultural diversity but you expect all future citizens to do it via legal channels and you will be monitoring everyone who comes in. I also think there needs to be tougher laws in relation to crime in your country for every new citizen, so perhaps you could introduce a 5 year probation period where new citizens have to not have committed any major crimes and if they do there is the threat or deterrent of being stripped of citizenship and deportation if they do.
So I guess Gypsy a carrot and stick approach - more rewards/incentives for those who come in legally and more deterrents for all who do not.
So basically it sends a message that you are not anti-immigration which I think so many of the Trump nutcase supporters are, instead it sends a positive message, that you as a country that was founded by immigrants embraces both immigration and cultural diversity but you expect all future citizens to do it via legal channels and you will be monitoring everyone who comes in. I also think there needs to be tougher laws in relation to crime in your country for every new citizen, so perhaps you could introduce a 5 year probation period where new citizens have to not have committed any major crimes and if they do there is the threat or deterrent of being stripped of citizenship and deportation if they do.
So I guess Gypsy a carrot and stick approach - more rewards/incentives for those who come in legally and more deterrents for all who do not.
Gypsy
Super_Ideal_Rock
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arkieb1|1471159327|4065789 said:
I agree with a lot of this. Except the stripping of citizen part. No. I cannot agree with that. It would be completely unconstitutional. That is what the Residency period is for. Extend that if you must. But no, after citizenship you are citizen. Not a "kind of" citizen. No stripping of citizenship. That is not NOT okay.
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Hmmm we have seen many P/Sers absolutely outraged about poor people they feel are somehow rorting your welfare system, there have been numerous comments about people on food stamps and the negative aspects of welfare and yet the irony is not lost on me, that many of these same people think introducing better laws restricting who can own automatic weapons is unconstitutional. My point, my dear friend is this, yes, the answers might be seen by many to be unconstitutional but that doesn't mean they are any less (when all other options have been explored) valid workable solutions.
Any country that can allow Trump to be a possible contender as leader of the free world methinks is in a world of S@#* and it's going to take an even bigger world of pain to dig yourselves out of it, and if that means a complete revamp of an outdated system (meaning your constitution) then, sadly that probably IS what is needed.
Any country that can allow Trump to be a possible contender as leader of the free world methinks is in a world of S@#* and it's going to take an even bigger world of pain to dig yourselves out of it, and if that means a complete revamp of an outdated system (meaning your constitution) then, sadly that probably IS what is needed.
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Gypsy thank you for that very personal story. I am sorry that I did not expand more on my post but I have a very negative life experience with immigrants and it is very personal. I hesitate to expound on it here because I am a very private person. This is the reason for trying to be innocuous in my approach to this subject. I want reform in a way that is fair and yes that does not encourage more illegal immigration. I appreciate your detailed thoughts on how that reform could be made.
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In an attempt to be open with this subject and so Gypsy will fully understand some of my negativity toward immigration I will give a brief history.
My family owned a ranch in CA with over 200 horses which we raised, bred, trained and sold. To speak to kenny's comment on jobs people don't want to do, ranch hand is one of those jobs. My family tried very hard to find students, young people, etc. to do the work but to no avail, none of them wanted to work that hard. So they hired a couple illegal immigrants from Mexico and we did the rest of the work ourselves, me included. In our area there were many ranches like ours who networked to find good workers so many of the local ranches hired family members or people from the same towns in Mexico. The workers lived on the ranch in nice accommodations (this according to them compared to what they had in Mexico). This was in the 70's and I was young. One of theses workers molested me repeatedly for several years. He threatened to do harm to my family if I ever told. I never told a soul and this same worker had a family with young children that my grandfather paid to come to the US. My grandfather also paid tens of thousands to lawyers and the government for this scumbag to become a citizen. I never told a soul. Once I was older I realized that if I had said anything my father likely would have shot him on the spot and buried him at the back of the ranch. For that reason I am glad I never said anything.
Fast forward to college, the ranch has been sold and my parents are very poor so I had grants and scholarships to be able to attend. I have terrible clothing that is clean but threadbare and looks many years old. DF please do not be offended by this next part. In college there is a high percentage of, I believe, Chinese students on visas who I had the "pleasure" of being in class with. I was a friendly person and spoke to anyone. These students would look at me and my clothing and be so rude to my face that I just shrunk away. From then on I would avoid talking to anyone if I could. During this same time my grandparents hosted a Japanese exchange student who was so rude to them and demanding of them they could not wait to get her out of their house.
Gypsy my family has a friend and neighbor to my grandmother since the late 70's. She immigrated from Tehran marrying a US citizen. I can remember when I was young listening to conversations between the adults about some of the atrocities she experienced. Her husband did most of the talking because it was painful for her. Her English was not good and she was embarrassed by that. She is much older now and still lives near my 94 year old grandmother, checking in on her every now and then. I appreciate her immensely.
Now move on to my time with corrections. INS was a daily visitor as each illegal immigrant would need to be reviewed and picked up for deportation. If you work there long enough you see familiar faces returning, some with even more violent crimes than before. On 9/11 it was depressing to hear cheering coming from cells you knew housed "brown people" as you call them with their utter contempt for the US.
I hope this information that is very private to me helps you understand me a bit more. I did not arrive at some of my views based on media or racist rants but by experience. Yet I am still willing to be open to people of all flavors to come to the US but it is a precious gift to live in this country and I want people to appreciate it, work for it, and abide by the laws.
To speak to your English comments, I have said I do not mind people speaking their own language as well as English. I have also said that I realize that English is one of the hardest languages to learn. Many Americans are terrible at speaking it correctly.
My family owned a ranch in CA with over 200 horses which we raised, bred, trained and sold. To speak to kenny's comment on jobs people don't want to do, ranch hand is one of those jobs. My family tried very hard to find students, young people, etc. to do the work but to no avail, none of them wanted to work that hard. So they hired a couple illegal immigrants from Mexico and we did the rest of the work ourselves, me included. In our area there were many ranches like ours who networked to find good workers so many of the local ranches hired family members or people from the same towns in Mexico. The workers lived on the ranch in nice accommodations (this according to them compared to what they had in Mexico). This was in the 70's and I was young. One of theses workers molested me repeatedly for several years. He threatened to do harm to my family if I ever told. I never told a soul and this same worker had a family with young children that my grandfather paid to come to the US. My grandfather also paid tens of thousands to lawyers and the government for this scumbag to become a citizen. I never told a soul. Once I was older I realized that if I had said anything my father likely would have shot him on the spot and buried him at the back of the ranch. For that reason I am glad I never said anything.
Fast forward to college, the ranch has been sold and my parents are very poor so I had grants and scholarships to be able to attend. I have terrible clothing that is clean but threadbare and looks many years old. DF please do not be offended by this next part. In college there is a high percentage of, I believe, Chinese students on visas who I had the "pleasure" of being in class with. I was a friendly person and spoke to anyone. These students would look at me and my clothing and be so rude to my face that I just shrunk away. From then on I would avoid talking to anyone if I could. During this same time my grandparents hosted a Japanese exchange student who was so rude to them and demanding of them they could not wait to get her out of their house.
Gypsy my family has a friend and neighbor to my grandmother since the late 70's. She immigrated from Tehran marrying a US citizen. I can remember when I was young listening to conversations between the adults about some of the atrocities she experienced. Her husband did most of the talking because it was painful for her. Her English was not good and she was embarrassed by that. She is much older now and still lives near my 94 year old grandmother, checking in on her every now and then. I appreciate her immensely.
Now move on to my time with corrections. INS was a daily visitor as each illegal immigrant would need to be reviewed and picked up for deportation. If you work there long enough you see familiar faces returning, some with even more violent crimes than before. On 9/11 it was depressing to hear cheering coming from cells you knew housed "brown people" as you call them with their utter contempt for the US.
I hope this information that is very private to me helps you understand me a bit more. I did not arrive at some of my views based on media or racist rants but by experience. Yet I am still willing to be open to people of all flavors to come to the US but it is a precious gift to live in this country and I want people to appreciate it, work for it, and abide by the laws.
To speak to your English comments, I have said I do not mind people speaking their own language as well as English. I have also said that I realize that English is one of the hardest languages to learn. Many Americans are terrible at speaking it correctly.
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Gypsy the reforms are definitely going to cost a huge amount of $ and I don't think Congress wants to take that to the American people. Mass amnesty is much easier but also political suicide for republicans. Hence nothing being done. I am on the fence because IMO the government cannot handle the $$ we give them now responsibly so why do I want to give them more? This is my problem with Clinton's agenda. Expansion of tax increases, infrastructure spending and more $$ is the last thing I want to do.
I wanted to add that I am sorry for the racism that your family endured from ignorant Americans. This kind of behavior is unacceptable and embarrassing for me as an American.
I have a grasp on the English language and also muddle through Spanish and German. Not all of us conservatives are ignorant or devoid of compassion for other people.
I wanted to add that I am sorry for the racism that your family endured from ignorant Americans. This kind of behavior is unacceptable and embarrassing for me as an American.
I have a grasp on the English language and also muddle through Spanish and German. Not all of us conservatives are ignorant or devoid of compassion for other people.
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redwood66|1471182446|4065840 said:
Redwood, let me give you some of my 63 year old history
When I was 11 my little best friend's uncle started molesting me whenever he could (she tried to warn me about him but I didn't listen to my detriment), all summer long, he was a tall white American guy, a lineman for the phone company, my cousin who was 6 years older than me at 8 forced me to watch him do some very sexual things all summer that I lived with them while my mother was in rehab (or whatever, I think she went to the 'sanitarium') I was so young I was very uncomfortable and scared. I took a ride home when I was buzzed from a local guy that my friends said was okay and he proceeded to literally beat me, literally rape me, tear my clothes off and told me if told ANYONE he would kill my family, and i believed him.. it was horrible - I was 18.. I went to college and lived with my sister in NYC, she was attacked in the elevator of our apartment by a black who held a knife at her throat, if it was for the neighbor running out of his apartment and my sister screaming who knows what would have happened, when I was taking the train to my college for a class, a Puerto Rican guy and I were the only ones in the car (11:30 class) this guy exposed him self and tried to force me into oral sex, I tried to run through the car and I ran into a pole in the car and was knocked out, the guy ran off and I lost all my college books and was freaked for years, in high school a priest smacked the crap out of me for laughing..(and I didn't even start it)... and other great tales of being a white, catholic, Irish girl in New York... but enough here to suffice to say that today I don't hold what happened against white guys, cousins, Hispanics or priests.. because I have spent my whole life trying not judge all by the actions of a few. I can feel the pain you felt at being sexually abused, I know this, but one I got a lot of counseling over the last 35 years, and I don't judge a book by its cover. I believe immigrants should come here legally, but I believe there are reasons why people have fled their countries, in fear of death, to come here illegally, I like DancingFire's scenario.. We as a country need immigrants and a lot of them as the baby boomer's didn't have as many kids as their parents, boomers are referred to as the belly of a snake, not as many before or after (I read that in Newsweek in the 60s
I was poor, I as lucky that I was so poor I qualified for lots of free stuff in college and work/study grants, and free money.. I thank the people of New York State and America for that, and I worked hard to be a good, kind, strong willed American. Every group of Americans that came here before me was labelled as rabble, troublemakers, crooks, etc.. I will not let the few that are cloud my judgement on the whole, because there are many good immigrants legal and illegal.
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I almost deleted my long post above because it is painful, personal and private. Now I am past the time to edit and have a bit of regret. I hope that you appreciate my providing it as much as I appreciate yours.
T I do not hold any race responsible for what happened to me. I have learned to cope and understand they were horrible or just not nice people - not a color. It is unfortunate circumstances for me and I have never had any kind of counseling and probably will not at this point in my life. I am sorry for the things that happened to you also. They are terrible and no one should have to go through them. I take people at their face value and what they present to me, should you be nasty or unkind then I revert back into myself or fire out to protect my identity as a person.
I think more than my childhood and college experiences, my work in corrections has shaped my view of the ugly part of society in general. It is not a long stretch to become jaded. Most polite society never sees this part of the world and its hideous ugliness. Daily exposure to people who cannot be decent human beings tends to cloud one's view.
T I do not hold any race responsible for what happened to me. I have learned to cope and understand they were horrible or just not nice people - not a color. It is unfortunate circumstances for me and I have never had any kind of counseling and probably will not at this point in my life. I am sorry for the things that happened to you also. They are terrible and no one should have to go through them. I take people at their face value and what they present to me, should you be nasty or unkind then I revert back into myself or fire out to protect my identity as a person.
I think more than my childhood and college experiences, my work in corrections has shaped my view of the ugly part of society in general. It is not a long stretch to become jaded. Most polite society never sees this part of the world and its hideous ugliness. Daily exposure to people who cannot be decent human beings tends to cloud one's view.
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redwood66|1471189498|4065869 said:
I can feel your pain, believe me.. I believe times are better, but I only had sons who are less accosted ... and yes I believe your job made you see the underbelly so I truly ullly understand why and where your views come from.. don't get me going on the catholic church btw!
peace and love to you Redwood and yours.Tekate|1471185191|4065848 said:
In all fairness, isn't that the point of most (if not all) political threads? To persuade others to share your political views?
I'm not voting for Trump or Clinton, but no thread here persuaded me to make those decisions. I suspect that pro-Trump threads are about as ineffective in swaying people's political opinions as anti-Trump threads are. Most people have their minds made up, but I suppose you can't blame someone for trying
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To you women who have revealed these painful personal histories ... I salute you.
I'm sorry that there are so many people who do horrible things to others, especially children.
It damages us.
Carrying on is hard, and real healing is not easy even with professional help.
So many of us are the walking wounded.
Sometimes we are not how we should be, online and in person; I'm certainly not.
While they are no excuse, past traumas helps explain.
Thanks for making real the people behind these avatars.
Sometimes I forget and post as if I'm speaking to a position, not a person.
I'm sorry that there are so many people who do horrible things to others, especially children.
It damages us.
Carrying on is hard, and real healing is not easy even with professional help.
So many of us are the walking wounded.
Sometimes we are not how we should be, online and in person; I'm certainly not.
While they are no excuse, past traumas helps explain.
Thanks for making real the people behind these avatars.
Sometimes I forget and post as if I'm speaking to a position, not a person.
Gypsy
Super_Ideal_Rock
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- Aug 8, 2005
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- 40,225
Redwood, first I want to thank you for what you shared. It was very brave of you, and I appreciate it very much. It helps me understand you better.
I think the biggest problem with America right now is our political polarization and our Politicians themselves, honestly. Followed by 24 hours news networks that are allowed to get away with any lies they want, eroding the 'fourth estate' and our societal short attention spans that are focused on short term fixes at the expense of long term solutions.
As I know you agree, what we REALLY need are 1) term limits 2) hard and stingy limits on campaign spending and 3) laws limiting elected officials from engaging any form of campaigning until the months (6 months, IMO for Congress and 9 months for President) immediately preceding any election.
And as you said, our politicians are not so altruistic that ANY majority of them would vote against their own interests to enact these laws. Because they are selfish.
It would solve SO MANY problems. Why? Because working with those across the aisle would become so much more attractive if you weren't eligible to be re-elected.
And that is the real problem. The sides are so polarized that they can no longer work together and are constantly working against each other. Our politicians are so focused on making their opponents look bad they have lost sight of the fact that they are civil servants and their job is not to get re-elected, is not to maintain partisan majorities, it is to serve the WHOLE country, not their constituents and to do what is best for that COUNTRY not for their party.
I truly believe that MOST of America's problems CAN NOT be solved with ANY one party solution (at least if those parties are the Dem and Rep). Unemployment, job creation, immigration, individual liberties, terrorism... all of these require strengths from side A and side B.
In this thread I outlined a common sense approach (from someone who is not a politician) DIVORCED FROM ANY PARTY AGENDA to the issue of illegal immigration. Arkie came in with a few "sticks"... and the next thing you know you and DF (both firmly on the Right side of things) are nodding your head.
What was the criticism? That it would NEVER pass, because it would be career suicide. EXACTLY. Our lack of term limits and our political polarization (fueled by the irresponsible 24 hour news networks that are degrading what journalism means and depriving us of the traditional protections the "fourth estate" offered us as a populace) do not ALLOW for common sense.
You, in the other thread pointed out the problems with the Democrats Infra-Structure job 'creation' pipe dreams. You know what the solution there is? A common sense balanced approach based on NON PARTISAN research into understanding of the capacity of states to absorb these funds and use them in the best way possible. Non-partisan job creation committees with non-partisan leadership. And then a re-allocation of unabsorbable funds into areas where we NEED to use these funds like immigration or justice system overhauls, REGARDLESS of how 'popular' the programs funded are are in the short term.
That's another problem. We as a society are becoming more and more focused on Short Term goals and quick fixes (not helped by the fact of political polarization and lack of cooperation making long term anything impossible) instead of long term solutions. The immigration things is a perfect example. We want it fast, we want it to be great and we want it cheap. Well, solving big problems PERMANENTLY isn't going to be FAST or CHEAP. Fast and cheap are the antithesis of great when it comes to solutions to our big problems.
Take for example our prison system. It's completely broken. What do we need to do to fix it? This is a suggestion off the top of my head (I am not an social worker or an expert on these issues so if I am completely wrong, please politely show me the 'light')
Well, first we need to AGREE as a COUNTRY that for misdemeanors and non-violent felonies and even for three strikes small crime repeat offenders our goal needs to be rehabilitation, therapy, and vocational training. Why? Because one of the biggest problems facing our prison system is repeat offending due to these people NOT being integrated back into society into jobs that pay living wages. This will take MONEY. Criminals are not exactly a well favored minority in this country. Few people want their tax money to go to helping some criminal have a better life. We would need to incentivize shops and industries that require skilled human labor to hire these people once they are out. That means tax breaks and/or offering to pay for their healthcare for the term of their original sentence (if they are on parole). And we would need to keep jobs HERE not allow them to be outsourced (so an exit tax that is prohibitive and tax on goods coming back into the country), so that these criminals would be seen as an attractive viable labor force. And the prisons for these types of offenders would need to be separate from those of violent and felony offenders. And if they DO engage in violence while they are in their special prisons, they get shipped out to the 'other' place. We need to go into the inner cities and areas where the most of the people come from and fund social programs for 1) day care (helping single moms that work full time or those working part time and going to school or going to school full time) and 2) drug rehabilitation programs 3) sex education, including free birth control.
There also needs to be a zero tolerance policy for addiction and drug use in prison. They don't stay in jail and anyone caught with drugs is flagged immediately. They don't get vocational training. They go to special facilities and they get the care, therapy and help they need as addicts. And this is a two strikes program. The third time you are caught with illicit substances you sent to the facility outlined immediately below, because you are no longer considered someone who can re-enter society successfully.
"The other place." Then we need to agree as a country that for certain types of felony offenders we are NOT going to worry about vocational training or rehabilitation.These are the violent criminals. We are just punishing them and keeping them segregated from the rest of society as they are threat. These criminals would be kept in separate facilities from the previous catagory. We need to make these prisons unattractive as possible. What does that mean? It means that you do not allow a black market for cigarettes and goodies to develop. It means that these people do not get computers. They do not get TV's. They do not get GYMS. They get a cell that includes a bed and toilet, basic grooming facilities and healthcare (not advanced healthcare) and basic meals. Any and all perks will be at the prison's discretion and will be ONLY merit based, and that goes for any educational opportunities through charitable organizations. And the prisons will have VERY stringent INDEPENDENT oversight with regard to how these perks are allocated. And we need to forget about having felons in facilities that are close to their families or whatever. No. That's no longer a concern. I'm sorry. You should have thought of that before.
We need to overhaul the parole system. In order to be eligible for parole you have cannot be a violent adult offender. I am sorry. You have to serve your whole sentence.
We have to actually make the system good at deterring people from committing felonies. We need to sentence kids as young as 13 as adults if they commit murder. They would go to special facilities too. They can't be in facilities that are for older people or for non-violent kids. And I think these facilities need to be like military boot camps. Frankly I think that if you are kid and you commit a violent crime you are put into a program like that. And no straight up parole for these kids either. Their only option if they want to get out early is to actually enlist. That is the only parole you are eligible for, at 18 and you have a requirement to serve 4 years and if you can't then you get sent to the adult felony prison to serve out your full sentence.
We also need to re-train our police force. We need to start requiring real educations or military backgrounds for cops. Just like doctors and lawyers there has to be an ongoing education requirement. And much of that should focus on breaking the propensity for racially motivated profiling and actions. On making sure that the laws are enforced equally for those of all races. There needs to be a no tolerance racism policy for cops. And that needs to be strictly enforced.
And our criminal judges should be held to higher standards. They should have their statistics reviewed by an independent board (preferably one that is private or linked to a private university) for biases and they need to face CONSEQUENCES for favoring affluent clients. We need to have a single justice system, not one for the rich and another for the rest of society.
Our lawmakers should be required to do intensive research into what actually WORKS as to lower crime. Not what is politically popular. And they should be required to review, repeal, and amend current laws with those goals in mind. And many of the laws on the books from the "war on drugs" era need to be repealed entirely. And they should be required to look to see what is working in other countries and research to see if that would work here. They could fund a University or 3 to these studies to help them. Instead of lobbyists (which need to be neutered) and overworked under qualified staffers.
The FDA needs to reclassify marijuana as a schedule 2 drug, as well.
But you know what all that requires? Common sense, ALL parties working together toward the same goal TOGETHER, and an understanding by the populace that this is a LONG TERM solution that is worth their money and the time and infrastructure it will take because it will make the country TRULY great again. We need ALL sides to work together pooling their STRENGTHS to truly accomplish lasting change.
But.... as I said, our Politicians, the media and our lazy desire for quick and easy solutions prevent any of this from happening.
I think the biggest problem with America right now is our political polarization and our Politicians themselves, honestly. Followed by 24 hours news networks that are allowed to get away with any lies they want, eroding the 'fourth estate' and our societal short attention spans that are focused on short term fixes at the expense of long term solutions.
As I know you agree, what we REALLY need are 1) term limits 2) hard and stingy limits on campaign spending and 3) laws limiting elected officials from engaging any form of campaigning until the months (6 months, IMO for Congress and 9 months for President) immediately preceding any election.
And as you said, our politicians are not so altruistic that ANY majority of them would vote against their own interests to enact these laws. Because they are selfish.
It would solve SO MANY problems. Why? Because working with those across the aisle would become so much more attractive if you weren't eligible to be re-elected.
And that is the real problem. The sides are so polarized that they can no longer work together and are constantly working against each other. Our politicians are so focused on making their opponents look bad they have lost sight of the fact that they are civil servants and their job is not to get re-elected, is not to maintain partisan majorities, it is to serve the WHOLE country, not their constituents and to do what is best for that COUNTRY not for their party.
I truly believe that MOST of America's problems CAN NOT be solved with ANY one party solution (at least if those parties are the Dem and Rep). Unemployment, job creation, immigration, individual liberties, terrorism... all of these require strengths from side A and side B.
In this thread I outlined a common sense approach (from someone who is not a politician) DIVORCED FROM ANY PARTY AGENDA to the issue of illegal immigration. Arkie came in with a few "sticks"... and the next thing you know you and DF (both firmly on the Right side of things) are nodding your head.
What was the criticism? That it would NEVER pass, because it would be career suicide. EXACTLY. Our lack of term limits and our political polarization (fueled by the irresponsible 24 hour news networks that are degrading what journalism means and depriving us of the traditional protections the "fourth estate" offered us as a populace) do not ALLOW for common sense.
You, in the other thread pointed out the problems with the Democrats Infra-Structure job 'creation' pipe dreams. You know what the solution there is? A common sense balanced approach based on NON PARTISAN research into understanding of the capacity of states to absorb these funds and use them in the best way possible. Non-partisan job creation committees with non-partisan leadership. And then a re-allocation of unabsorbable funds into areas where we NEED to use these funds like immigration or justice system overhauls, REGARDLESS of how 'popular' the programs funded are are in the short term.
That's another problem. We as a society are becoming more and more focused on Short Term goals and quick fixes (not helped by the fact of political polarization and lack of cooperation making long term anything impossible) instead of long term solutions. The immigration things is a perfect example. We want it fast, we want it to be great and we want it cheap. Well, solving big problems PERMANENTLY isn't going to be FAST or CHEAP. Fast and cheap are the antithesis of great when it comes to solutions to our big problems.
Take for example our prison system. It's completely broken. What do we need to do to fix it? This is a suggestion off the top of my head (I am not an social worker or an expert on these issues so if I am completely wrong, please politely show me the 'light')
Well, first we need to AGREE as a COUNTRY that for misdemeanors and non-violent felonies and even for three strikes small crime repeat offenders our goal needs to be rehabilitation, therapy, and vocational training. Why? Because one of the biggest problems facing our prison system is repeat offending due to these people NOT being integrated back into society into jobs that pay living wages. This will take MONEY. Criminals are not exactly a well favored minority in this country. Few people want their tax money to go to helping some criminal have a better life. We would need to incentivize shops and industries that require skilled human labor to hire these people once they are out. That means tax breaks and/or offering to pay for their healthcare for the term of their original sentence (if they are on parole). And we would need to keep jobs HERE not allow them to be outsourced (so an exit tax that is prohibitive and tax on goods coming back into the country), so that these criminals would be seen as an attractive viable labor force. And the prisons for these types of offenders would need to be separate from those of violent and felony offenders. And if they DO engage in violence while they are in their special prisons, they get shipped out to the 'other' place. We need to go into the inner cities and areas where the most of the people come from and fund social programs for 1) day care (helping single moms that work full time or those working part time and going to school or going to school full time) and 2) drug rehabilitation programs 3) sex education, including free birth control.
There also needs to be a zero tolerance policy for addiction and drug use in prison. They don't stay in jail and anyone caught with drugs is flagged immediately. They don't get vocational training. They go to special facilities and they get the care, therapy and help they need as addicts. And this is a two strikes program. The third time you are caught with illicit substances you sent to the facility outlined immediately below, because you are no longer considered someone who can re-enter society successfully.
"The other place." Then we need to agree as a country that for certain types of felony offenders we are NOT going to worry about vocational training or rehabilitation.These are the violent criminals. We are just punishing them and keeping them segregated from the rest of society as they are threat. These criminals would be kept in separate facilities from the previous catagory. We need to make these prisons unattractive as possible. What does that mean? It means that you do not allow a black market for cigarettes and goodies to develop. It means that these people do not get computers. They do not get TV's. They do not get GYMS. They get a cell that includes a bed and toilet, basic grooming facilities and healthcare (not advanced healthcare) and basic meals. Any and all perks will be at the prison's discretion and will be ONLY merit based, and that goes for any educational opportunities through charitable organizations. And the prisons will have VERY stringent INDEPENDENT oversight with regard to how these perks are allocated. And we need to forget about having felons in facilities that are close to their families or whatever. No. That's no longer a concern. I'm sorry. You should have thought of that before.
We need to overhaul the parole system. In order to be eligible for parole you have cannot be a violent adult offender. I am sorry. You have to serve your whole sentence.
We have to actually make the system good at deterring people from committing felonies. We need to sentence kids as young as 13 as adults if they commit murder. They would go to special facilities too. They can't be in facilities that are for older people or for non-violent kids. And I think these facilities need to be like military boot camps. Frankly I think that if you are kid and you commit a violent crime you are put into a program like that. And no straight up parole for these kids either. Their only option if they want to get out early is to actually enlist. That is the only parole you are eligible for, at 18 and you have a requirement to serve 4 years and if you can't then you get sent to the adult felony prison to serve out your full sentence.
We also need to re-train our police force. We need to start requiring real educations or military backgrounds for cops. Just like doctors and lawyers there has to be an ongoing education requirement. And much of that should focus on breaking the propensity for racially motivated profiling and actions. On making sure that the laws are enforced equally for those of all races. There needs to be a no tolerance racism policy for cops. And that needs to be strictly enforced.
And our criminal judges should be held to higher standards. They should have their statistics reviewed by an independent board (preferably one that is private or linked to a private university) for biases and they need to face CONSEQUENCES for favoring affluent clients. We need to have a single justice system, not one for the rich and another for the rest of society.
Our lawmakers should be required to do intensive research into what actually WORKS as to lower crime. Not what is politically popular. And they should be required to review, repeal, and amend current laws with those goals in mind. And many of the laws on the books from the "war on drugs" era need to be repealed entirely. And they should be required to look to see what is working in other countries and research to see if that would work here. They could fund a University or 3 to these studies to help them. Instead of lobbyists (which need to be neutered) and overworked under qualified staffers.
The FDA needs to reclassify marijuana as a schedule 2 drug, as well.
But you know what all that requires? Common sense, ALL parties working together toward the same goal TOGETHER, and an understanding by the populace that this is a LONG TERM solution that is worth their money and the time and infrastructure it will take because it will make the country TRULY great again. We need ALL sides to work together pooling their STRENGTHS to truly accomplish lasting change.
But.... as I said, our Politicians, the media and our lazy desire for quick and easy solutions prevent any of this from happening.
- Joined
- Apr 22, 2004
- Messages
- 38,364
I agree. All citizens should be equal and treated equally in the eyes of the law. If an immigrant -> citizen can be stripped of their citizenship, then all citizens should also fall under the same rule whereby their citizenship should be revoked under the same rules and conditions.Gypsy|1471159585|4065791 said:
To Tekate and Redwood,
I know it took a lot to share your personal and very private stories. I am very sorry for your experience and proud of how you have continued to carry on strongly.
- Joined
- Aug 22, 2012
- Messages
- 7,329
I agree with most all of the beginning of your post regarding polarization in the parties. The parties, through the media, whip up their constituents with each side of an argument and in the end we all lose. My disagreement is the portion regarding job creation as I do not believe that it is a function of the government to create jobs. They need to create an environment that includes less taxation and regulation and that encourages the private sector to create jobs. We do not need more government jobs. I am not sure that is what you were saying by job creation committees so I may be off base. IMO it requires a bipartisan committee made up of economists that truly have the country's best interests at heart, not a way to further their careers. I am not an economist by any stretch and this is as far as my opinion goes.
On to the prison system. We can (or need to) agree as a people that what we have is not working. But this system is left to the states to deal with based on their needs. It should stay that way because one more agency in Washington is not what we need. I believe in states' rights as not all states have the same needs. The needs of CA are completely different than the needs of WY or OK. Need - ok I just had to type it one more time.
For purposes of this discussion we will keep it to the high population and high crime states like CA.
You are correct that normal people going about their day do not want millions of more dollars going to the prison and parole system. And it is not a system anyone really wants to reform because it will cost too much. CA changed their longstanding name of CA Dept. of Corrections to CA Dept. of Corrections and Rehabilitation. That made all the difference in the world.
True reform must include the poorer parts of cities where much of the violence, gangs, and illegal activity starts. Its not just inner big cities. Stockton and Bakersfield used to be sleepy farm and industrial towns but they are riddled with gang problems. I am no expert on how to combat the despair and lack of education that exists but someone has to get ahold of that 8-13 year old to show them a better way. This will take more than the government, it takes parents, support groups, churches, volunteers, teachers and more. Gangs (many multi-generational) are so pervasive and cunning in their recruitment of the young. The lack of education or someone seeing the benefit of education is depressing to me. And if someone wasn't a gang member outside, they surely will be once they get in, either full blown or affiliated, just to survive.
As far as prisons go. I only worked in the "other place" type you mentioned. From what I hear, the lesser classification (less violent crimes - just drugs, robbery, etc.) are training grounds for illicit activity.
Sentencing laws need an overhaul, the 3 strikes law has not worked in CA and has just filled up the prisons with more inmates. The suggestion that more actual rehabilitation centers instead of prisons is a good idea which will take $. The inmate has to be a willing participant though. Drugs are the underlying problem to most of the violence. Dealing and addiction. Again the population at large does not care to put any $ into helping anyone with these problems. Much like mental health. All of this will takes heaps of $.
The violent ones you can't help just need to be housed and they should be performing hard work while they are at it. The idea that their punishment is just being imprisoned is BS. IMO these are people who gave up their right to daily life in a comfortable cell with TV, mail, library, and no requirement to perform a job that is physically demanding. Prisons used to be a place you feared going. Now it is a badge of honor for a gang member. With all that said, there is a benefit to a TV in a cell. Because if they are watching TV, they are not spending hours devising plans to do harm or causing disruption in a housing unit. A TV is a privilege that can be taken away and I have done that many times. But the bleeding hearts feel so much anguish for the terrible conditions that inmates tell them they are living in. Hogwash. Inmates have more rights in prison than many people out on the street and they exercise them. You want to get out of your cell for a bit - either just for a joy ride or to pass something/info to another inmate? Fake a heart attack or stomach pain after clinic hours so you can get a ride in an ambulance to the hospital - to the tune of $5-10K or more for the taxpayer. I know this for a fact because while I worked at the prison, my DH worked in the emergency room. Sure there are bad guards, but just like street cops most are there to do their job and go home.
Judges are a mixed bag. Many are definitely biased and make rulings that are mind boggling but others take their job seriously. There should be equal justice across the board for anyone no matter your status.
Bipartisan, honest work to come up with real solutions is what is needed. And it will take money, loads of it. The people don't have the stomach for it. The parties all want the easy and quick "solution" as you say. Can we just fire all of them and start over? Term limits!!! Most people are apathetic in what our government is doing which is how we got this way in the first place. Others have a feeling of helplessness because the rest don't care or are not paying attention. Still others are so staunch in their view - even if it is wrong. We can thank the 24hr media to tell us what we should be thinking. In the words of Admiral Ackbar "It's a trap!" (I am a Star Wars nerd) Common sense is out the window. There are a lot of things our Congress should be required to do, going to work instead of constantly campaigning is one of them.
I don't know if all of this crap helped but more opinions can't hurt and discussion is good. Gypsy you take so much time in formulating your opinions that I feel lacking. But I am frustrated beyond belief.
On to the prison system. We can (or need to) agree as a people that what we have is not working. But this system is left to the states to deal with based on their needs. It should stay that way because one more agency in Washington is not what we need. I believe in states' rights as not all states have the same needs. The needs of CA are completely different than the needs of WY or OK. Need - ok I just had to type it one more time.
For purposes of this discussion we will keep it to the high population and high crime states like CA.
You are correct that normal people going about their day do not want millions of more dollars going to the prison and parole system. And it is not a system anyone really wants to reform because it will cost too much. CA changed their longstanding name of CA Dept. of Corrections to CA Dept. of Corrections and Rehabilitation. That made all the difference in the world.
True reform must include the poorer parts of cities where much of the violence, gangs, and illegal activity starts. Its not just inner big cities. Stockton and Bakersfield used to be sleepy farm and industrial towns but they are riddled with gang problems. I am no expert on how to combat the despair and lack of education that exists but someone has to get ahold of that 8-13 year old to show them a better way. This will take more than the government, it takes parents, support groups, churches, volunteers, teachers and more. Gangs (many multi-generational) are so pervasive and cunning in their recruitment of the young. The lack of education or someone seeing the benefit of education is depressing to me. And if someone wasn't a gang member outside, they surely will be once they get in, either full blown or affiliated, just to survive.
As far as prisons go. I only worked in the "other place" type you mentioned. From what I hear, the lesser classification (less violent crimes - just drugs, robbery, etc.) are training grounds for illicit activity.
Sentencing laws need an overhaul, the 3 strikes law has not worked in CA and has just filled up the prisons with more inmates. The suggestion that more actual rehabilitation centers instead of prisons is a good idea which will take $. The inmate has to be a willing participant though. Drugs are the underlying problem to most of the violence. Dealing and addiction. Again the population at large does not care to put any $ into helping anyone with these problems. Much like mental health. All of this will takes heaps of $.
The violent ones you can't help just need to be housed and they should be performing hard work while they are at it. The idea that their punishment is just being imprisoned is BS. IMO these are people who gave up their right to daily life in a comfortable cell with TV, mail, library, and no requirement to perform a job that is physically demanding. Prisons used to be a place you feared going. Now it is a badge of honor for a gang member. With all that said, there is a benefit to a TV in a cell. Because if they are watching TV, they are not spending hours devising plans to do harm or causing disruption in a housing unit. A TV is a privilege that can be taken away and I have done that many times. But the bleeding hearts feel so much anguish for the terrible conditions that inmates tell them they are living in. Hogwash. Inmates have more rights in prison than many people out on the street and they exercise them. You want to get out of your cell for a bit - either just for a joy ride or to pass something/info to another inmate? Fake a heart attack or stomach pain after clinic hours so you can get a ride in an ambulance to the hospital - to the tune of $5-10K or more for the taxpayer. I know this for a fact because while I worked at the prison, my DH worked in the emergency room. Sure there are bad guards, but just like street cops most are there to do their job and go home.
Judges are a mixed bag. Many are definitely biased and make rulings that are mind boggling but others take their job seriously. There should be equal justice across the board for anyone no matter your status.
Bipartisan, honest work to come up with real solutions is what is needed. And it will take money, loads of it. The people don't have the stomach for it. The parties all want the easy and quick "solution" as you say. Can we just fire all of them and start over? Term limits!!!
Most people are apathetic in what our government is doing which is how we got this way in the first place. Others have a feeling of helplessness because the rest don't care or are not paying attention. Still others are so staunch in their view - even if it is wrong. We can thank the 24hr media to tell us what we should be thinking. In the words of Admiral Ackbar "It's a trap!" (I am a Star Wars nerd) Common sense is out the window. There are a lot of things our Congress should be required to do, going to work instead of constantly campaigning is one of them. I don't know if all of this crap helped but more opinions can't hurt and discussion is good. Gypsy you take so much time in formulating your opinions that I feel lacking. But I am frustrated beyond belief.
- Joined
- May 11, 2013
- Messages
- 7,570
To Tekate and Redwood,
I know it took a lot to share your personal and very private stories. I am very sorry for your experience and proud of how you have continued to carry on strongly.
Thank you Chrono, very very kind of you and I appreciate your words.
Kate
I know it took a lot to share your personal and very private stories. I am very sorry for your experience and proud of how you have continued to carry on strongly.
Thank you Chrono, very very kind of you and I appreciate your words.
Kate
- Joined
- Feb 22, 2009
- Messages
- 4,602
Oh holy Jesus, please help us. You know what diminishes the power and symbolism of our flag? Blatant racism. This country was built on immigration.siv1|1471093882|4065476 said:
The fact that our borders have always been permeable declares this entire document false. The issue of diseases and lack of employment for the illegal immigrants would have reared their ugly heads decades ago. Where are they? Seems to me that many rednecks have been screaming that immigrants have been stealing their jobs for half a century! Where are all of these eradicated diseases? Looks like our own white upper middle class/non-vaxxing community is handling this issue just fine, Thank YOU! Besides, I thought the Republicans were complaining about illegal immigrants receiving free health care!!
You can't have it both ways. Immigrants are either stealing jobs or there are not enough jobs. They are either spreading disease or they are taking advantage of free health care. Which is it?
Assimilate? Should I shave my head and tattoo a swastika on my chest? Where's my white hood?
You mention the MS-13 gang, but what about our own American born gangs and their violence? Skinheads are considered organized crime members. They commit violence all of the time against innocent people. What about good old fashioned criminals, born and bred right here in the USA? Meth users, Heroin users?? What about most every mass shooter in the US? Most of these people born in the US? Here is a recent article that studies immigration and crime rates. It proves that illegal immigrants are not more or less likely to commit crimes here in the US.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...igrant-crime-san-francisco-shooting/30159479/
This article you have shared is proof of blatant racism within your political party. It definitely primed the pump for Trump Dogma. It is total garbage.
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- Messages
- 33,852
I would like to hear a good reason for not passing Kate's Law...
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- May 11, 2013
- Messages
- 7,570
Dancing Fire|1471373314|4066643 said:I would like to hear a good reason for not passing Kate's Law...
Good question and fair.. such a tragedy when anyone's child is murdered.. many people have lost family members to DUI accidents, accidents etc by illegals.. very painful..
an explanation DF
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/09/kates-law-mandatory-sentencing/403990/
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