First time diamond wholesale purchase

ngambit · May 1, 2014

First time poster but I've been reading this forum for about a month. So much information, its great!

I was referred to a local guy from a family member and he has found an egl-usa stone that he has said is good value. It comes under budget, what do you guys think? I'm aware of the looser grading for color/clarity by EGL-USA. I've seen the rock with a loupe but did not have an idealscope. But I'm definetly a beginner and not really sure what to look for when inspecting a diamond (after more research I do). I'm convinced that cut is the most important factor so even if it came back at GIA SI1/2 and H (and I would be fine with that). I'm more concerned about the quality of the cut. He is willing to send it to an independant appraisal and is confident it will check out to be good. Thoughts?

2.20 CT
8.30x8.24x5.17 mm

Depth: 62.4
Crow: 56%
Crown Angle: 35.5
Pavilion Angle: 40.6
Polish: Excellent
Symmetry: Excellent
Crown Percentage: 15.6%
Pavillion Percentage: 42.8%
Cutlet: None
HCA: 1.4

Color: G
Clarity: VS2
Cut grade: Ideal
Cert shows: H&A

ps, He was upfront about the EGL cert not being considered the same as GIA. Definetely appreciated that...

heididdl · May 1, 2014

So you were told that EGL USA is a little softer than GIA and AGS. That being said if you look at the stone search on this forum a

2.20 3X stone G color VS2 by EGL International (no USA) sells for $15,156
2.20 3x stone G color VS2 by GIA sells for $26,543

a 2.20 GIA stone J color si2 GIA sells for $16,300

The difference in price is due to the soft grading of EGL....So if you were to buy the 2.20 G VS2 by EGL for $15,156 you are actually getting a GIA graded stone (of course approxiately each stone different)

J solor color si2 of lower for $16,300

So if the stone being offered to you by this friend is in the $15,000 range is because it is from EGL.

Also the angle of the stone is a little steep.

Does this make sense. Since you are starting your search I would just start with only AGS O or 3x GIA certified stones it gives you simple piece of mind. and if this guy can't provide it than you buy on line. Because he will always tell you he is giving you a deal

There are no deals in buying diamonds there is no such thing as a wholesale sale to a consumer. True true and true. With diamonds you get what you pay for. We have all been burned and you are so lucky you are starting fresh.

Gypsy · May 1, 2014

Anyone claiming to sell you an EGL stone as a good value is not a friend.

Anyone selling you a stone and claiming that you are getting a wholesale deal is lying to you. If it was wholesale they would not be selling it to you.

Gypsy · May 1, 2014

The entire purpose of faceting a diamond is to reflect light.
How well or how poorly a diamond does this determines how beautiful it is.
How well a diamond performs is determined by the angles and cutting. This is why we say cut is king.
No other factor: not color, not clarity has as much of an impact on the appearance of a diamond as its cut. An ideal H will out white a poorly cut F. And GIA Ex is not enough.
So how to we ensure that we have the right angles and cutting to get the light performance we want?
https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/diamond-cut
Well one method is to start with a GIA Ex, and then apply the HCA to it. YOU DO NOT USE HCA for AGS0 stones.
https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/holloway-cut-advisor
The HCA is a rejection tool. Not a selection tool. It uses 4 data points to make a rudimentary call on how the diamond may perform.
If the diamond passes then you know that you are in the right zone in terms of angles for light performance. Under 2 is a pass. Under 2.5-2.1 is a maybe. Over 2.5 is a no. No score under 2 is better than any other.
Is that enough? Not really.
So what you need is a way to check actual light performance of your actual stone.
That's what an idealscope image does. https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/firescope-idealscope
It shows you how and wear your diamond is reflecting light, how well it is going at it, and where you are losing light return. That is why you won't see us recommending Blue Nile, as they do not provide idealscope images for their diamonds. James Allen and WF do.

The Idealscope is the 'selection tool'. Not the HCA.
So yes, with a GIA stone you need the idealscope images. Or you can buy an idealscope yourself and take it in to the jeweler you are working with to check the stones yourself. Or if you have a good return policy (full refund minimum 7 days) then you can buy the idealscope, buy the stone, and do it at home.

ngambit · May 1, 2014

Thanks for the replies! The price of the stone is no where near the same price as the equilavalent GIA stone. The question is how far off? Can an indepantant grader tell me that? Like I said, I'm fine with all the way down to SI2/I. I would would be jumping up and down if it came back H/SI1.

It really boils down to the cut, when you do a diamond search here with GIA SI2 and I with a HCA of excellent, then it would seem I am getting a good to fair price. I'm not looking to come out like a bandit, I just want a stone that performs well with light. I'm drinking the cut is king kool-aid

I doubt my abilities to accurately grade it even with an idealscope. With those numbers, is it worth even looking at (again with an idealscope) ?

ngambit · May 1, 2014

2.20 3X stone G color VS2 by EGL International (no USA) sells for $15,156
2.20 3x stone G color VS2 by GIA sells for $26,543

When I am searching online for EGL, it seems that there is a big difference between EGL-International and USA. It also seems that those really cheap EGL stones always score really bad on the HCA (i.e. reject right away). There are EGL 3x G color VS2 by EGL USA online here for 18-20K. Why are they higher in price?

John P · May 1, 2014

ngambit|1398968279|3664515 said:
Why are they higher in price?

Who knows? "G VS2" can mean any number of things. One G VS2 could be H SI1 at a stricter lab. Another might be I SI1 and a third could be J SI2. Many pros estimate 2 grades lower as best-case, and I've seen EGL paper as much a 5-6 collective grades off.

What did your jeweler estimate the grading to be, if GIA standards were applied? That's an important opinion, to begin with, as he is a professional and has examined it.

ngambit said:
Can an indepantant grader tell me that?

Absolutely. You could even make an agreement with your jeweler: Have him write down the grades he believes it to be. Then have him send the diamond sent to Neil Beaty for independent appraisal. If the appraisal is in-line or higher than your jeweler's and you like the price you close the deal and walk away confident. If it comes back lower than your jeweler's assessment you can make the arrangement to further negotiate or walk away from the table.

You may even ask the jeweler to pay for half of Neil's fee (which is quite affordable).

Neil Beaty: American Gem Registry
http://www.americangemregistry.com/

Texas Leaguer · May 1, 2014

It is probable that the reason the price is attractive is color and/or clarity grading, and possibly other aspects not listed in your post such as fluorescence. Cutting appears to be good. But if you are really interested in top cut quality, you should be looking at AGSl certified diamond which analyzes light performance by taking the influence of every facet into consideration. Or get this EGL cut grade verified by additional analyis.

In any case you should get a qualified independent review of this stone to make sure there is not some other issue at play that you may want to be aware of. At the end of the day you are buying a diamond, and this one might be perfect for you provided you fully understand it. Being aware of issues such as how the lab report impacts future liquidity may also be a consideration for you.

There are some excellent appraisers here that can perform those services for you. If everything checks out you will more fully enjoy the diamond and be even more proud of getting a good deal.

ngambit · May 1, 2014

The price is on the higher side for EGL certs - 21K usd. I ended up putting down a significant deposit in haste (stupidity?). I'm not sure what the refund policy (if there is one). This is what happens when you trust family referrals.. im sure you've all seen this script on here before.

The fluorescence is none. I saw it in person and I liked it. Perhaps I could have got a much better deal buying online. I live in vancouver, bc canada. Any recommendations for independent appraisal ? Took me 4 years to save up for this so it will be a tough pill to swallow if it is 5-6 grades off!

Texas Leaguer · May 1, 2014

ngambit|1398977611|3664624 said:
The price is on the higher side for EGL certs - 21K usd. I ended up putting down a significant deposit in haste (stupidity?). I'm not sure what the refund policy (if there is one). This is what happens when you trust family referrals.. im sure you've all seen this script on here before.
The fluorescence is none. I saw it in person and I liked it. Perhaps I could have got a much better deal buying online. I live in vancouver, bc canada. Any recommendations for independent appraisal ? Took me 4 years to save up for this so it will be a tough pill to swallow if it is 5-6 grades off!

Relax, you will be fine. If your vendor is upstanding he will work with you to get the assurances you need. I might suggest that you start a new thread titled something like "recommendations for a good appraiser in Vancouver?" I would bet you will get some helpful referrals here.

LLJsmom · May 1, 2014

ngambit|1398977611|3664624 said:
The price is on the higher side for EGL certs - 21K usd. I ended up putting down a significant deposit in haste (stupidity?). I'm not sure what the refund policy (if there is one). This is what happens when you trust family referrals.. im sure you've all seen this script on here before.

The fluorescence is none. I saw it in person and I liked it. Perhaps I could have got a much better deal buying online. I live in vancouver, bc canada. Any recommendations for independent appraisal ? Took me 4 years to save up for this so it will be a tough pill to swallow if it is 5-6 grades off!

Is there a way you can get your money back and start over?? Why would they require a deposit? for that much money, you would want to know exactly what you are getting.

heididdl · May 1, 2014

An independent appraiser is not going to let you know cut the cut makes all the difference.

John P · May 1, 2014

heididdl|1398990961|3664778 said:
An independent appraiser is not going to let you know cut the cut makes all the difference.

Hey now! I do appraisals here and there, and they include an in-depth review of cut through several metrics. Possibly overkill

It really depends on the appraiser. I believe heididdl is pointing out that many jewelry professionals don't explore cut with the thoroughness you'll find among the enthusiasts here. It's true. Just like diamond sellers there are many hundreds and thousands of appraisers out there.

Be sure you find one that specializes in cut - like the independent appraisers who contribute here on Pricescope (I linked Neil Beaty above) - and you'll get a more thorough breakdown than even the labs provide.

diamondseeker2006 · May 1, 2014

Sounds like the stone is overpriced. Get your money back and start over. Tell him you have decided to wait and think about it some more before buying. Then come back here and get some help!!!

Red flags...wholesalers don't sell to you and me, and no refunds once you buy the stone. Does this guy have an unconditional return policy for 14-30 days after the purchase? Many vendors like this only allow exchange. Never buy from someone like that.

ngambit · May 2, 2014

Well I think I'm going to take it to an independent in my area to get it checked out. If I were to post those numbers (excluding color/clarity and cert) would it be worthwhile to checkout? Had I know what I know now I would have asked for idealscope image, but there is a chance it's a good cut with hca of 1.4 ? He's giving me a pretty good deal on a platinum setting and I've seen his work and it's really nice.

Me being from Canada I would be paying USA tax (8.75% ?) then 12% usd to cad conversion and then (!!!) 12% hst tax ( canada tax) to buy online from the US. I really appreciate all the replies , you guys are great. I will update with the results of the independent grade.

JulieN · May 2, 2014

No, I don't think you would pay any US taxes.

diamondseeker2006 · May 2, 2014

Ah, that does complicate things. But I agree with Julie that you shouldn't have to pay US sales tax unless you go to the US and buy from a jewelry store. It would be great if you have a qualified independent appraiser who can do idealscope or ASET for you. I wouldn't go to them if they can't. I would also try to talk this jeweler down on the diamond price. Even if you decide you want the stone, say you have seen some similar stones listed for less and you might want to look a little further. That just might get you a better price.

Why not ask your jeweler to send the stone to GIA? I'd make 100% sure you can get your deposit back no matter what you decide, though.

denverappraiser · May 2, 2014

heididdl|1398990961|3664778 said:
An independent appraiser is not going to let you know cut the cut makes all the difference.

Appraisal services are not all the same. All services from the same appraiser aren't even the same. If you want an in depth analysis of the cutting, ask for that when you hire them. It is NOT possible to do this in any reliable way from photographs, including ASET and IS photos, and it is NOT a service offered by GIA.

US sales taxes are based on the delivery address of the goods and/or the residence of the buyer. A shipment going out of the country would not be subject to sales tax in any jurisdiction that I'm aware of and there is no export tax on diamonds or jewelry from the United States. Canadian taxes, of course, are up to her Majesty's taxman and they vary a bit according to exactly where you are. It sounds like you've got a pretty good understanding of those.

diamondseeker2006 · May 2, 2014

I imagine there are few appraisers in North America who do what someone like Neil does, and that is why I would rather send the stone to GIA (just to get accurate color, clarity, and a general cut grade so he can pay the right price for the stone) than some local "appraiser" who might even be friends with that jeweler. There are very few independent jewelry appraisers, period, and certainly there are not many who are going to run the diamond through cut and performance testing like Neil would. If I needed an EGL or uncerted stone appraised, I would just send it to Neil. But I am not sure how complicated it is to send a stone into the US and back to Canada for an appraisal.

ngambit · May 2, 2014

Thanks for the clarification re : taxes. That was news to me.

John P · May 2, 2014

diamondseeker2006|1399042677|3665084 said:
But I am not sure how complicated it is to send a stone into the US and back to Canada for an appraisal.

That's a good question. I'd imagine it's easy, but maybe Neil or Dave Atlas could answer.

An advantage of sending the diamond to GIA would be the trading document agreed-on as "official.” In fact the jeweler may prefer that scenario, in case the OP decides to walk-away from the deal.

A disadvantage of GIA is turnaround time. They are quoting a return date of May 30 for diamonds 2cts+ right now. It may or may-not be practical for the OP to wait for a month.

If accuracy is the goal, and another grading report isn't a priority, the right appraiser can provide accurate answers and faster service. It’s what they do. There are many quality pros - the two I named above included - easily as skilled as the best GIA graders (the seniors grading the diamonds of high value/size) and far more experienced than average line-graders knocking out dozens of 1ct stones per day. To their credit, GIA uses a system of several graders - where split decisions are resolved by someone more experienced. That means it's not just one set of eyes. Yet anyone who works in this business has seen their fair share of head-scratchers and flat-wrong reports.

So, while I agree GIA can provide “the” globally-regarded document a skilled independent professional can be fully capable of naming the color and clarity per GIA standards with equal accuracy. With diamonds that are loose it's rather easy, in fact.

ngambit · May 2, 2014

So if it came back 1 grade off, would this not be a fair deal? Considering the lower hca? It might not the best price and I'm fine with him making a commission . 5-6 grades off would be unacceptable. This seems more common with egl international. No?

For the money I want to be certain. But it seems there is a possibility it could be a fair price . But the same possibility it's not. Am I wrong ?

Texas Leaguer · May 2, 2014

ngambit|1399049584|3665140 said:
So if it came back 1 grade off, would this not be a fair deal? Considering the lower hca? It might not the best price and I'm fine with him making a commission . 5-6 grades off would be unacceptable. This seems more common with egl international. No?

For the money I want to be certain. But it seems there is a possibility it could be a fair price . But the same possibility it's not. Am I wrong ?

On the one hand you seem to be sincerely interested in knowing the facts about this diamond that you have money down on, which is evident by the fact that you are tuned in here and posting. And so your are getting alot of good advice designed to help you protect your interests and make a purchase you can be confident in. On the other hand you seem to looking for someone to tell you what you are wanting to hear, and that can be a bit dangerous.

Everybody is different and comes at diamond shopping from a different angle. For some any lab report will do, for others they want a solid pedigree. Still others don't even require a cert. Some people are not at all interested in the facts and they shop around until someone tells them what they want to hear.

I can see doing that with fashion purchases. But for this kind of money, I think shoppers should insist on top quality evaluations by high quality labs and independent professionals. And to me, it's not about the money so much as really knowing what it is you are buying.

Whether the price is above market, average or a "helluva deal" is not so much the issue. If it is the right stone with all the qualities that are important to you, then price is only a secondary issue. If for some reason it is not the right stone, then in no way could it be considered a good deal.

You will need an expert, arm's length, third party evaluation to know.

John P · May 2, 2014

ngambit|1399049584|3665140 said:
But it seems there is a possibility it could be a fair price. But the same possibility it's not. Am I wrong ?

I think you just summed it up.

Texas Leaguer said:
You will need an expert, arm's length, third party evaluation to know.

Voilà.

diamondseeker2006 · May 2, 2014

ngambit · May 2, 2014

TL that was well said thanks. Everyone's advice is much appreciated. While I do want to hear good news, the take away is I want it reviewed by an expert. The jeweler has offered that.

Roqsteady · May 2, 2014

ngambit|1399051821|3665163 said:
TL that was well said thanks. Everyone's advice is much appreciated. While I do want to hear good news, the take away is I want it reviewed by an expert. The jeweler has offered that.

You want it reviewed by an independent expert to be absolutely sure. Look up the pricescope list of independent appraisers and have the jeweler send it to one of them.

John P · May 2, 2014

diamondseeker2006|1399051201|3665154 said:
My guess (which is worthless) is that your diamond is not higher than I color unless the clarity goes down to SI2. If the clarity drops to SI2, there will be a significant price drop compared to the stones I posted above.

It may be a guess, but it's not worthless.

I'm staff-training in a store with 12 experienced salespeople right now. I read your post when it went up and took a straw-poll. My question: "Based on your experience, sight-unseen before opening the parcel-paper, how many collective grades-soft would you expect the average EGL report to be from GIA grading?" The minimum was 3. The maximum 5; with the observation from many that color dips more wildly than clarity. For what it's worth, my answer would be 3-4.

So diamondseeker projecting the possibility of I-SI1 isn't unreasonable, nor is H-SI2. As an outlier, even I-SI2 could fit...

We don't know for certain, and I hope we have all been clear in expressing that. The point that is being made for you, while giving the diamond and your jeweler all respect-due, is that including an objective third-party pro is fair and reasonable protection for you in this situation.

denverappraiser · May 2, 2014

I’m not sure I’m allowed to chime in at this point since several people have recommended me (thanks folks), but I’ll take a run at it.

You’re trying to decide what details of the stone are and if it’s a good value, right?

Cut is your hot button.

What you’ve got is an opinion from a company that you already have said you don’t trust (EGL) and an opinion from a jeweler that you do but who doesn’t even pretend to be providing you with a single smidgen cut information beyond what EGL gave them. You want a second opinion, which means the jeweler by definition can’t provide it, even if they hadn’t already declined. It’s not a second opinion if it comes from the same source as the first.

You’ve got no data for you or anyone else to work from other than the abbreviated and rounded list that EGL provided. Again I would point out that this source is the very company that you’ve said you don’t trust.

The takeaway you want is an expert opinion. On what? The report? Why? You’ve already agreed that you consider it unreliable. So don’t rely on it. No expert worth the title would do it, why should you? Ignore it. On the stone? For that you need your expert to actually examine the stone. Not just any old expert, your expert. The jeweler has already provided you theirs and, again, you don’t trust them. I don’t mean to beat on a dead horse with this but they gave you a report, told you that they don’t count them as reliable, and are then asking you to rely on it anyway. Does that make ANY sense? Shop for an expert that YOU consider to be reliable, make their stamp of approval one of the requirements of the deal and, assuming the seller agrees to whatever the logistics need to be, rely on them. If you can’t find an expert that works out for both of you, kill the deal.

heididdl · May 2, 2014

John Pollard|1398992675|3664794 said:
heididdl|1398990961|3664778 said:

An independent appraiser is not going to let you know cut the cut makes all the difference.

Click to expand...

Hey now! I do appraisals here and there, and they include an in-depth review of cut through several metrics. Possibly overkill

It really depends on the appraiser. I believe heididdl is pointing out that many jewelry professionals don't explore cut with the thoroughness you'll find among the enthusiasts here. It's true. Just like diamond sellers there are many hundreds and thousands of appraisers out there.

Be sure you find one that specializes in cut - like the independent appraisers who contribute here on Pricescope (I linked Neil Beaty above) - and you'll get a more thorough breakdown than even the labs provide.

Thank you for being kind. Yes that was what I was getting at plus why go through having it appraised when you can just look at GIA or AGS ideal stones.

First time diamond wholesale purchase

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