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Feeling gloomy - advice about where to get ring made

SouthernElle

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I don’t know think you can cut down on the number of prongs, they won’t look the same at all from the side. Also echoing the concern about the side diamonds, I would think you’d have to source them through August Vintage or they could end up looking mismatched to your stone. And $1500 I think is unrealistic for two stones and hand forged. I get that you want this to be your perfect, forever ring now, but it simply might not be attainable. If it was me, I would put the cushion cut in a perfectly lovely solitaire setting and in 2-3 years and with some savings, have it set with side stones in a hand forged setting. Does CVB do hand forged? Her settings are to die for with antique cuts.
 

distracts

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Upgrading is not “common” in America... just on pricescope and a few select pockets of people. I’d guess around 90% of married people have the same engagement/wedding rings forever unless they lose or damage them. However most people also aren’t very interested in jewelry - if you’re interested in jewelry it makes more sense that you may want to change it periodically or put more money into it as you have more.
 

MollyMalone

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I now see that there’s a Stuller online catalogue posted on the August Vintage website:

But at least on my iPhone, the catalogue that Love Affair Diamonds has posted is easier to navigate, isn’t giving me any of the error or denied access messages that I’m getting with AV’s catalogue.
 

MollyMalone

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Hi, @Whisper89 :wavey:

Here’s a great thread about hand-forged vs cast that you might find interesting-helpful:

I’m also tagging @rockysalamander and @yssie in the hope that they will take a look at the pics you posted, in post #21, of the two inspiration rings & share their opinions as to whether one or both of those rings were cast or hand-forged as I’m not confident my hunches are correct.
 

CalliopeCladdagh

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Here’s a great thread about hand-forged vs cast that you might find interesting-helpful:
Hi, yes thank you for this. As well as romanticising the vision of someone highly skilled bending and hammering away to create something for me, these kind of comments from that thread are what make me really want hand forged:

"Hand fabricated metal is more dense than metal in its natural state which does make it stronger than cast metal. I don’t have scientific figures to give you as to how much stronger it is. It’s pretty hard to deny for anybody that works with metal on a daily basis. Hand fabricated metal is shaped by exerting huge amount of pressure on the metal to conform it to shape with the help of heavy rolling mills, draw plates etc. Even after annealing the metal, the metal is still strong."

I just have visions of cast jewellery being brittle and full of air holes. I am aware these thoughts are blown out of proportion, and I really do not wish to offend anyone who has cast jewellery! I also am aware that these issues likely do not happen with the top quality vendors mentioned a lot on Pricescope.

I sincerely do not want to come off as rude, and I worry that I am frustrating some of you with my seemingly unrealistic wants and low budget. I apologise for that. I have anxiety (and a few other issues) and my brain latches on to any tiny negative detail and makes it into a huge thing.
 

agingsparkle

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You can look at what these would look like with a 5x5 stone (slightly smaller than the one posted on the other page)

These all have some type of swoop to the basket and lower-set side stones, just to get an idea...



 

rainydaze

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HP uses Hot Isostatic Platinum Forging to eliminate porosity. Their site explains it well, see link. I think they will supply just a setting but I'm not 100% sure. If they do, having them make your setting might get you close to what you are looking for, close to your budget.

 

PreRaphaelite

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I think $1500 is realistic if you have time to spend *And* you’re willing to search pawn shops and estate sales.

There is an adage for this:

You can have two of the following: cheap, fast, or good. Cheap & fast but not a good result. Fast & good, but not cheap. Cheap & good, but not fast. Nobody gets all three.

Obviously the word “cheap” is used for expediency here. No one would suggest actually getting a cheap ring. It’s poetic license.

Other posters here have given you great advice! Everyone is pulling for you! Don’t get frustrated. You will find something that makes your heart sing.

Sometimes David can source stones. Why not just email him and see what they can do?
 

yssie

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I'm sorry you're feeling gloomy! Ditto previous posters - we don't want anyone feeling that way about their jewellery, especially a piece as significant as an engagement ring! :(sad

I have forged, die-struck, and cast pieces. Happily, I can assure you that the blurb you read re. pitfalls of casting is... let's go with overwrought.

Your inspiration three-stone was made by Caysie van Bebber, and the solitaire is by Erika Winters. Caysie casts. Erika uses a mix of casting and hand-forging. After falling down the "forging is better" rabbit hole myself, and learning some expensive lessons to the contrary, I realized the obvious: The "best" method of manufacture depends only - and wholly - on (1) the design itself and (2) the designer's recomendations, which reflect the media he or she is most comfortable working with and has had most success with. I don't know how my Margot was manufactured, I haven't cared to ask, but my guess is that it was cast.

There's poor casting and finishing, which suffers from all the issues you fear. No vendor recommended on PS will fall into this category. There's high-quality casting and finishing, which will yield heirloom-quality pieces. There's poor forging, which will be uneven, asymmetric, and poorly-soldered. And there's high-quality forging and finishing, which will also yield heirloom-quality pieces.

Some designs are objectively better-suited to one method of manufacture over another. The head of your inspiration three-stone, where swoopy gallery baskets transition seamlessly into prongs... that's not a good candidate for hand-forging. The word "seamless" is the key obstacle - forging a ring involves creating the separate pieces that compose the design and soldering them together. What are the independent pieces of that head that you'd create separately? Where would you solder? Can it be done? Absolutely. But it will be expensive and prone to error.

The issue with your thought to just scale down is that there are lower bounds to sizing of some design elements. You can scale centerstone and sidestones down in size, but 0.1ct sidestones will be too small width-wise to create a visual "step" from stone to shank, even if that shank is tapered up the shoulders... And it's most likely impossible to create those swoopy gallery details you want on the sidestones - there's just not enough space to work with. And, as @SouthernElle points out, changing number of prongs alters profile aesthetic significantly!


I think that if you can force yourself to stop romanticizing forging you'll end up much happier - it is not the best method of manufacture for the gallery design you want, and high-quality forging is simply out of your budget. To be perfectly honest even high-quality casting may well be out of your budget given the additional costs of sidestones and finishing details, but if you're flexible on design and have some time to spend it may be doable if the budget you stated in your original post is in USD (if it's in NZD I do think it's going to be impossible to get what you want, I'm afraid. I hate to be a wet dishrag but I also want to try to set realistic expectations). I'd recommend reaching out to these vendors:
Hunt Country Jewelers: https://huntcountry.com/
Old World Diamonds: https://www.oldworlddiamonds.com/ (Potentially also a source for those sidestones)​
And if you can't get the design you want in-budget I strongly recommend compromising on complexity of design, not quality of manufacture.
 
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PreRaphaelite

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excellent advice and explanation
well said
 

Dreamer_D

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In the interest of setting realistic expectations, your inspiration images are all by vendors who are more expensive than your budget. So you might not get quite the same delicacy and detail in your budget. The inspiration images all have prongs that are hand finished in a way that takes particular skill and thus costs $$. You can get a beautiful setting in your budget, just please calibrate your expectations!

Have you considered an antique or non branded cut? Your budget would go much further.
 

CalliopeCladdagh

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HP uses Hot Isostatic Platinum Forging to eliminate porosity. Their site explains it well, see link. I think they will supply just a setting but I'm not 100% sure. If they do, having them make your setting might get you close to what you are looking for, close to your budget.
Thank you for your great suggestion.

You can have two of the following: cheap, fast, or good. Cheap & fast but not a good result. Fast & good, but not cheap. Cheap & good, but not fast. Nobody gets all three.


Other posters here have given you great advice! Everyone is pulling for you! Don’t get frustrated. You will find something that makes your heart sing.
Thank you! I am in the "cheap and good" camp - not in a particular rush. I've waited years for my own diamond, pretty much ever since my mother got hers (many years after they were married, due to finances!). I can wait another year or so.

I'm sorry you're feeling gloomy! Ditto previous posters - we don't want anyone feeling that way about their jewellery, especially a piece as significant as an engagement ring! :(sad

And if you can't get the design you want in-budget I strongly recommend compromising on complexity of design, not quality of manufacture.
Thank you for your very useful post. I agree with compromising on complexity rather than quality.

You can get a beautiful setting in your budget, just please calibrate your expectations!

Have you considered an antique or non branded cut? Your budget would go much further.
I think I will indeed calibrate my expectations. I just got very excited at the thought of finally get a ring on my finger, and I wanted it to be perfect.

I have considered non-branded cuts, but the AVCs seem just so perfect. I know they are more expensive and I've seen PS members post beautiful non-branded antique cushions that have been sourced for them by experts. But I will be buying sight unseen without the opportunity to return (due to non-refundable import duty and customs fees), so the reassurance that the AVC will have wonderful performance and the fact they all have readily available grade reports with ASET images makes it worth it to me. Also it's easy to see their inventory on their website so I can choose the right carat/colour/clarity combo that works for me, safe in the knowledge that they're all great.
 

distracts

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In the interest of setting realistic expectations, your inspiration images are all by vendors who are more expensive than your budget. So you might not get quite the same delicacy and detail in your budget. The inspiration images all have prongs that are hand finished in a way that takes particular skill and thus costs $$. You can get a beautiful setting in your budget, just please calibrate your expectations!

Have you considered an antique or non branded cut? Your budget would go much further.

Yes, the setting only for the three-stone is $2500 in platinum. As others have noted, it is usually the fine finishing details that raise the price, because those are what require a lot more skill and time to do.

As @yssie pointed out - there are also flaws with hand-forged. There is more likely to be variance between what you wanted/imagined/had in a drawing and the finished product. Since what you want is very different from your inspiration picture, that's a problem. If the jeweler isn't very skilled, it's more likely to be asymmetrical or lopsided in some way. Solder joins can be weak points - we've seen several rings from highly skilled, very highly regarded hand-forgers pop open at solder joins and need to be fixed. Shit can happen with any ring, basically. If you choose a well-regarded jeweler with a history of executing the kind of design you want, you minimize the chances of things going wrong.

We know there ARE jewelers out there who will agree to do what you want for the price you want to pay - the question is if the ring you end up with will actually meet your expectations. We're not frustrated with you, we're just trying to caution you to save you from an expensive mistake, because we've seen many people make them, and if you end up getting a setting you don't like, there's usually no recourse but to eat the expense and pay for a new setting later on down the line.
 

CalliopeCladdagh

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We're not frustrated with you, we're just trying to caution you to save you from an expensive mistake, because we've seen many people make them, and if you end up getting a setting you don't like, there's usually no recourse but to eat the expense and pay for a new setting later on down the line.
I understand.

Everyone has given me a great deal to think about. This site is such a brilliant source of information and advice. So glad I found it!

Also browsing SMTB is super good for procrastination.
 

CalliopeCladdagh

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I just got an email from one of the jewellers I visited the other day. The guy I spoke to went and discussed my request with the owner. This is their response:

"I have spoken to [owner] of what we discussed and had a good look at what August Vintage offers. Because the proportion the cut with the crown so high and the table so small, we believe that the actual diamond will not look as bright as shown on their website despite their claims on the imagery on the brilliance. Some diamonds listed on their website have such thick girdle that makes absolute nothing to its visual once set and you have to pay for that additional weight.

We hope that good quality Modified Brilliant Cushion Cut Diamonds may change your mind on the cut style of choice. Please see below an image of a modified brilliant cushion cut diamond along with its GIA Diamond Certificate we can supply. ... And despite being I colour, [owner] is happy to get this diamond in for you."

cusion.jpg

gia.jpg

Now, I am extremely unlikely to go with this because it's not what I want! But, I'd be very interested in your thoughts regarding their comments about the AVCs, and about this diamond they suggested (I know it's hard to judge without video, ASET, etc, but this is all they sent me).

Edit - it seems ironic that after their girdle comments they sent me a diamond with a slightly thick to very thick girdle?!
 

SouthernElle

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I just got an email from one of the jewellers I visited the other day. The guy I spoke to went and discussed my request with the owner. This is their response:

"I have spoken to [owner] of what we discussed and had a good look at what August Vintage offers. Because the proportion the cut with the crown so high and the table so small, we believe that the actual diamond will not look as bright as shown on their website despite their claims on the imagery on the brilliance. Some diamonds listed on their website have such thick girdle that makes absolute nothing to its visual once set and you have to pay for that additional weight.

We hope that good quality Modified Brilliant Cushion Cut Diamonds may change your mind on the cut style of choice. Please see below an image of a modified brilliant cushion cut diamond along with its GIA Diamond Certificate we can supply. ... And despite being I colour, [owner] is happy to get this diamond in for you."

cusion.jpg

gia.jpg

Now, I am extremely unlikely to go with this because it's not what I want! But, I'd be very interested in your thoughts regarding their comments about the AVCs, and about this diamond they suggested (I know it's hard to judge without video, ASET, etc, but this is all they sent me).

Sounds like they just want your money. And now they will go down to an “I” if you buy from them? I wouldn’t even respond and wouldn’t consider giving them any of your business.
 

CalliopeCladdagh

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Sounds like they just want your money. And now they will go down to an “I” if you buy from them? I wouldn’t even respond and wouldn’t consider giving them any of your business.
I know, right?! The whole "despite being I colour" just gets my hackles up.

I am considering responding and asking for the ASET and commenting about the thick girdle. But that would just be petty.

It's such a shame! These guys are family-run, been around a long time, and make beautiful stuff. So disappointed.
 

distracts

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I just got an email from one of the jewellers I visited the other day. The guy I spoke to went and discussed my request with the owner. This is their response:

"I have spoken to [owner] of what we discussed and had a good look at what August Vintage offers. Because the proportion the cut with the crown so high and the table so small, we believe that the actual diamond will not look as bright as shown on their website despite their claims on the imagery on the brilliance. Some diamonds listed on their website have such thick girdle that makes absolute nothing to its visual once set and you have to pay for that additional weight.

We hope that good quality Modified Brilliant Cushion Cut Diamonds may change your mind on the cut style of choice. Please see below an image of a modified brilliant cushion cut diamond along with its GIA Diamond Certificate we can supply. ... And despite being I colour, [owner] is happy to get this diamond in for you."

Now, I am extremely unlikely to go with this because it's not what I want! But, I'd be very interested in your thoughts regarding their comments about the AVCs, and about this diamond they suggested (I know it's hard to judge without video, ASET, etc, but this is all they sent me).

Edit - it seems ironic that after their girdle comments they sent me a diamond with a slightly thick to very thick girdle?!

They're just trying to convince you to go with them so they get the money. "They believe" is all well and good but you want an antique cut with an AGS 0 cut grade for light performance. AVs have been verified to have great light performance by an independent lab with strict criteria. If they can show you stones that have the same, then I would consider them... but a modern cut with a GIA report is not what you want at all. Plus that particular diamond looks to have leakage and the whole half-and-half thing where one side is always darker than the other. I'd be tempted to email them back a spiel about AGS's cut performance grading and tell them you might consider it if it also comes back with an AGS 0, because you want the hard data that it is an ideal performer, not just their opinions. And yes, lol, ask about the thick girdle and an ASET image. I bet they'd have no answer. Or just delete the email and move on.

I personally nix jewelers from my list if they hear what I want and then provide something that is not at all what I said I wanted. At least they're giving you early signs that they're going to try to run roughshod over your preferences and denigrate them while they're doing it. This is unfortunately not uncommon at all with jewelers. I've never had anyone in a clothing or shoe store say anything like that but jewelers - man. Some of the "customer service" I've experienced makes me embarrassed for the whole profession.

eta here is the AGS page you could link them, if you wish to continue a dialogue (though I'm really all for just ignoring them, lol): https://www.americangemsociety.org/page/lightperformancecut
 
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Dreamer_D

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naaah... those jewelers don't know much. it's true that a chunky antique style cushion doesn't have the same optics as an MRB or a modern cushion like the example they sent. but if you want a chunky cushion, the diamond they suggested ain't it.

I have had an MRB, AVC, and many many old cuts in my hands. all are different. I prefer the light show provided by ideal cut rounds, antique ones in particular. i didn't find that the AVC I had was sparkly enough for my taste. *shrug* to each their own. but if you have never seen an antique cushion in person, I could caution against going "all in" without the possibility to return. the diamonds look very different in person viewing than in pictures and videos... all of them, all cuts. in person viewing is a must.
 

arkieb1

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They are being difficult because they want the sale instead of with Jon. I've seen a number of diamonds including badly cut modern cushions, well cut modern cushions, AVCs (I owned one briefly that was .99 carats) and genuine Antique cut cushions. I'd take the latter two (the new perfectly cut Antique cuts and the genuine ones) over modern cuts any day of the week. The difference is the flashes of fire and sparkle are bigger and broader, so the scintillation pattern is totally different to a faster pattern in a modern cushion.

Your jewellers are rude idiots saying whatever they can to deter you from buying a stone from someone else, ie trying to get the sale. I'd would steer clear of them for those reasons.
 

rockysalamander

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I've been reading along and agree with the PS members here on budget/exceptions and being open to a cast setting. Or, go true antique, but that will require that you build trust with a vendor.

I think a setting with 4 prongs can work for your center stone and maybe for the sides if you are open to a design tweak. I think these earrings (which are over 1 carat each) have the 4-prong design you liked. By Erika Winters.
1572866089588.png

But, this setting is much more in scale with your center.
1572866332732.png
1572866361310.png

So, imagine the center with the full 4 prongs (ala the gold earrings) and the sides like the solitaire where the side prong (east or west) emerges from the shank (not stand-alone like the CVB design). If you like this idea, which is just a slight variation on what you expressed, then I'd probably suggest working with David Klass in the US and we can help here on PS to get the outcome you want. I'd eliminate the three pave stones on the shank if it affected budget.

There is a similar setting by The Gemstone Project and David Klass is her bench. The ring shown has 0.5 carat each side stones and you can see the details are retained in the small curved swoops are not overwhelmed by the 6 prongs. Her designs are divine and totally affordable. The stones here are stair-stepped like the ring you posted. This setting has a brush finish, but ignore that if you like shiny.
This setting, excluding the stones, was $1500 in gold (bit more in platinum)

With smaller side stones, I'd use the tail prongs as shown on the pears here for the round side stones. So, you'd have a three stone version of this. Just a variation on the swoopy setting you posted.

1572865066819.png
1572865087391.png
1572865185571.png

This TGP design shows the prongs as very rounded. The EW design has more square-edged prongs. Just another detail to ponder.


Other designs.

These would scale beautifully with your stone size.

A few other settings that came to mind that balance details and the stone sizes.
{from a cost perspective, three small single-cut stones would be more affordable and would balance well with your center stone.

@sledge or anyone, how can i suppress the instagram picture from showing up and taking up room in the feed. I want just the URL not the full picture? Or the mini-link like from the gemstone project.
 
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yssie

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Love the rec for TGP!!

@sledge or anyone, how can i suppress the instagram picture from showing up and taking up room in the feed. I want just the URL not the full picture? Or the mini-link like from the gemstone project.
Code:
[URL unfurl=“true”]https://www.instagram.com/p/B4N_0PUABV2/?hl=en[/URL]
Yields
https://www.instagram.com/p/B4N_0PUABV2/?hl=en

Code:
[URL=https://www.instagram.com/p/B4N_0PUABV2/?hl=en]An instagram URL[/URL]
Yields
An instagram URL
 
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rockysalamander

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A few more images with some commentary to consider.

This ring is within the same scale as you discussed. Have a look at the side view, you can see how much care is necessary to really get the details delicate and pretty. I love the diamonds, but the setting is a bit too busy for me.

This rings shows that you can add detail on the sides of smaller stones, but it must be right. I find this too heavy, but evokes an interesting design.

Now this is getting there. Starting to simplify the elements.

The side is not what you want, but the proportions are lovely.

Center has a similar element.

Simplicity and lovely.

With the right propotions, lovely. You don't always need a huge diamond.
1572877853273.png
 

CalliopeCladdagh

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@rockysalamander wow, fabulous post, thank you! I really like the design elements in the TGP Resilient as you suggested, but with the more square-edged prongs a la Erika Winters.
Also like the Ares by Erstwhile in terms of proportions. Most of those Victor Barone I also found too busy and metal-heavy.

I think I'm going to take some time to really figure out what I want and put together some inspiration photos that reflect it more accurately.
 

CalliopeCladdagh

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I personally nix jewelers from my list if they hear what I want and then provide something that is not at all what I said I wanted. At least they're giving you early signs that they're going to try to run roughshod over your preferences and denigrate them while they're doing it. This is unfortunately not uncommon at all with jewelers. I've never had anyone in a clothing or shoe store say anything like that but jewelers - man. Some of the "customer service" I've experienced makes me embarrassed for the whole profession.
It's odd! Like, I understand they rightfully have pride in their craftsmanship, but, if they won't make what I want I'm not going to give them my business...


but if you have never seen an antique cushion in person, I could caution against going "all in" without the possibility to return. the diamonds look very different in person viewing than in pictures and videos... all of them, all cuts. in person viewing is a must.
This is an issue for me. I have no way to see them in person. I have to go off threads on here, youtube videos etc. I've been to all the antique shops in the city asking to see any old diamonds they have. I've seen one or two old mine cuts - that's all there is. It does worry me but I don't really know what else to do?

I've seen a number of diamonds including badly cut modern cushions, well cut modern cushions, AVCs (I owned one briefly that was .99 carats) and genuine Antique cut cushions. I'd take the latter two (the new perfectly cut Antique cuts and the genuine ones) over modern cuts any day of the week. The difference is the flashes of fire and sparkle are bigger and broader, so the scintillation pattern is totally different to a faster pattern in a modern cushion.
This is what I'm after - the bigger, broader, more colourful flashes of fire. Everyone I know has a MRB and the splintery white sparkle doesn't really do it for me. I wouldn't turn one down if I was given it, lol, but it's not what I'd choose for myself.
 

GeorgieQ

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Hi Whisper, I was in a similar boat to you when I purchased my AVC. I live in a regional area in Australia and just did not have the opportunity to see any antique diamonds in person. This is why I decided to go with an AVC, for me it was basically fool proof, which is what I needed as returning it was just not an option (far too costly). I knew I'd be getting an ideal cut diamond with the antique look that I wanted, so I went for it and I can honestly say I have not regretted my decision. I absolutely love my AVC, it's just beautiful, the colours and flashes are gorgeous. Please don't let local jewelers put you off an AVC. They just want you to buy their diamond because for them, it's all about the $$$. My AVC is an N colour (sb fluorescence so faces up white to me) and I basically had a local jeweler laugh in my face and tell me I had been duped for buying an N coloured diamond!! Many local jewelers I have come across are really very parochial in their thinking when it comes to diamonds, and surprisingly, aren't as knowledgeable as I would of thought they'd be. For what it's worth, I also have a modern cushion and absolutely prefer the AVC hands down. Best of luck with it all, follow your heart, listen to the amazing advice here, ignore any ignorant jewelers there and you really can't go wrong. :)
 

distracts

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It's odd! Like, I understand they rightfully have pride in their craftsmanship, but, if they won't make what I want I'm not going to give them my business..

Well and there are ways to say "Sorry, we can't or aren't willing to do what you want" without being offensive. For instance, they could have said it is their policy to only work with H and above stones and that they cannot source antique stones that would meet the criterion of having ideal light performance, and so would not be able to work with you - WITHOUT any value judgments on any of the things you want!

p.s. I think you're right to stick to your guns on an AVC... they're so beautiful, and if you like the chunky flashes of light you will love it so much more than a modern cut.

Many local jewelers I have come across are really very parochial in their thinking when it comes to diamonds, and surprisingly, aren't as knowledgeable as I would of thought they'd be.

So true! We on PS are spoiled with the wealth of knowledge available to us and even more spoiled in that we actually take advantage of it.

Also @GeorgieQ is the cat in your avatar a ragdoll? I have two of my own :) sorry to threadjack, whisper89, I just saw a cat and had to ask!
 
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