Feedback on this diamond

[a11an]

I''m looking to buy an engagement diamond and have been doing some research. I found one at Union Diamond but unfortunately the certification is by EGL which is known to be extra lenient in their report. Does this one look too good to be true? I''m just afraid its Clarity is I1 instead of the SI2 as stated.


Diamond Information:
Certificate: EGL
Shape: Round
Cut: Premium
Carat: 1.10
Color: E
Clarity: SI2
Price: $2568

Diamond Proportions:
Measurements: 6.76-6.7-3.97
Depth Percentage: 59 %
Table Percentage: 59 %
Girdle: M
Culet: None (Pointed)
Polish: Very Good
Symmetry: Very Good
Fluorescence: None (Inert)
Special Notes: Beautiful Cut



Please help. Thank you.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 10/4/2009 12:30:54 PM
Author:a11an
I''m looking to buy an engagement diamond and have been doing some research. I found one at Union Diamond but unfortunately the certification is by EGL which is known to be extra lenient in their report. Does this one look too good to be true? I''m just afraid its Clarity is I1 instead of the SI2 as stated.


Diamond Information:
Certificate: EGL
Shape: Round
Cut: Premium
Carat: 1.10
Color: E
Clarity: SI2
Price: $2568

Diamond Proportions:
Measurements: 6.76-6.7-3.97
Depth Percentage: 59 %
Table Percentage: 59 %
Girdle: M
Culet: None (Pointed)
Polish: Very Good
Symmetry: Very Good
Fluorescence: None (Inert)
Special Notes: Beautiful Cut



Please help. Thank you.

Hi a11an,

EGL are considered to be less strict on grading than GIA and AGS yes, as to this diamond we need the crown and pavilion percentages too please, all the info on the report if you could or the link, but chances are it isn''t of top cut quality.

What are you looking for exactly, the best cut diamond you can get or just a well cut stone? If you post your budget and requirements we can see if there are any out there which might suit you?

 

[a11an]

Crown Percentage 13%
Pavilion 43%
Girdle M ,faceted



From my research, I was told that a diamond would still be acceptable to the naked eye with G-H clarity and SI2 as long as the cut is within a certain percentage. My goal is to have something around 1 carat under $3000 and would still look nice to non-diamond experts.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 10/4/2009 12:46:14 PM
Author: a11an


Crown Percentage 13%
Pavilion 43%
Girdle M ,faceted



From my research, I was told that a diamond would still be acceptable to the naked eye with G-H clarity and SI2 as long as the cut is within a certain percentage. My goal is to have something around 1 carat under $3000 and would still look nice to non-diamond experts.

Can you find out which EGL lab graded this diamond? It might say on the grading report which has been loaded online for this stone, or ask UD if this info isn't clear. EGL USA are said to be the strongest of the EGL labs but some of the others vary on accuracy, so an independant appraisal would be a very prudent move should you buy this diamond.

Actually it isn't a badly cut diamond, falls within brilliant ideal cut range ( BIC), what I would do next is ask UD to get an Idealscope image for this diamond and some photos, they should be able to do this. Also check very carefully it is eyeclean to your standards by asking someone at UD to inspect the diamond for you. If you decide to buy it, get an independant appraisal during the return policy to make sure the colour and clarity check out, here is a tool you can use to find an appraiser in your area here. I do believe UD have a return policy which will give you time to do this.

If you don't want to consider a smaller diamond with GIA or AGS grading which has top cut quality for the budget, then no reason to not consider this diamond if you aren't looking for a top notch cut etc and have other priorities, but do get that appraisal and make absolutely sure that it is eyeclean.

 

[Paul-Antwerp]

Let us be realistic. A 1.10 E-SI2 for $2,568 is not normal.

It is either a pricing-mistake, or something else.

Live long,

P.S. I understand that my comment might be seen as crossing the PS-rules for vendors, but in the case of such an obvious underpricing, I think that it is a mistake if this is not highlighted. It puts a big question-mark to colour, clarity and/or cut-quality, and the normal ''EGL-grading could be less strict'' does not suffice in such an example, I think.

 

[kenny]

Yeah Paul I thought that price was suspicious too.

That price is too good to be true.
Something's up.
Buyer beware.

And that "Special Note: Beautiful Cut" - Oh Puhleeeeeze.

 

[a11an]

 

[a11an]

(EGL report above. Had a big of a problem posting the pic earlier.)

Thats what I thought too.



There''s also an EGS appraisal valued at $11,800. It was appraised since aug 2008 and didn''t sell for over a year. That''s kind of weird too.

What do you think?

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 10/4/2009 3:18:42 PM
Author: Paul-Antwerp
Let us be realistic. A 1.10 E-SI2 for $2,568 is not normal.

It is either a pricing-mistake, or something else.

Live long,

P.S. I understand that my comment might be seen as crossing the PS-rules for vendors, but in the case of such an obvious underpricing, I think that it is a mistake if this is not highlighted. It puts a big question-mark to colour, clarity and/or cut-quality, and the normal 'EGL-grading could be less strict' does not suffice in such an example, I think.

Actually there are lots of EGL graded diamonds of similar size, colour and clarity for this price and under 3k USD Paul, so not a pricing mistake. Yes it does of course raise concerns about colour and clarity grading hence the repeated advice for the buyer to get an independant appraisal. It looks as if this particular diamond is graded by EGL Israel which would also account for the price.

Here is a listing of similarly priced EGL diamonds so you can see this isn't the only one.

Round 1.11 D SI2 Excellent EGL Israel 2,878.35

Round 1.01 E SI2 EGL Int. 1,705.85
Diamond Details
Stock # 8796
Depth %: 73.8
Table %: 56
Polish: Good
Symmetry: Good
Girdle: Thick -
Culet: None
Fluo: None
L/W Ratio: -
Dim (mm): 5.78 x 5.82 x 4.27

Round 1.04 E SI2 Very Good EGL Int. 2,229.43
Depth %: 61.3
Table %: 61
Polish: Excellent
Symmetry: Excellent
Girdle: Thick -
Culet: None
Fluo: None
L/W Ratio: -
Dim (mm): 6.43 x 6.46 x 3.95

Round 1.01 D SI2 EGLUSA 2,371.99
Depth %: 66.4
Table %: 64
Polish: Good
Symmetry: Good
Girdle: Slightly Thick to Very Thick
Culet: None
Fluo: Medium - Blue
L/W Ratio: -
Dim (mm): 6.11 x 6.09 x 4.05

Round 1.00 D SI2 EGL Int. 2,415.60
Depth %: 63.9
Table %: 57
Polish: Very Good
Symmetry: Excellent
Girdle: Medium -
Culet: None
Fluo: None
L/W Ratio: -
Dim (mm): 6.26 x 6.33 x 4.02

Round 1.10 E SI2 Very Good EGL Israel
Close
2,456.30 Depth %: 59
Table %: 59
Polish: Very Good
Symmetry: Very Good
Girdle: Medium to Medium
Culet: None
Fluo: None
L/W Ratio: -
Dim (mm): 6.76 x 6.7 x 3.97

Round 1.02 D SI2 Very Good EGL Int. 2,463.91
Depth %: 60.9
Table %: 62
Polish: Very Good
Symmetry: Excellent
Girdle: Medium -
Culet: None
Fluo: None
L/W Ratio: -
Dim (mm): 6.42 x 6.49 x 3.94

Round 1.03 E SI2 Ideal EGL Israel
Close
2,662.73
Depth %: 61.5
Table %: 55
Polish: -
Symmetry: Very Good
Girdle: Medium -
Culet: None
Fluo: None
L/W Ratio: -
Dim (mm): 6.5 x 6.38 x 3.96

Round 1.00 D SI2 EGL Israel 2,684.00
Depth %: 64.1
Table %: 55
Polish: Very Good
Symmetry: Good
Girdle: -
Culet: -
Fluo: None
L/W Ratio: -
Dim (mm): 6.32 x 6.2 x 4.01

Round 1.01 D SI2 Other
Close
2,710.84 Depth %: 61.3
Table %: 60
Polish: Very Good
Symmetry: Very Good
Girdle: Medium -
Culet: None
Fluo: None
L/W Ratio: -
Dim (mm): 6.4 x 6.35 x 3.91

Round 1.01 D SI2 Good EGLUSA
Close
2,710.84
Depth %: 62.9
Table %: 58
Polish: Good
Symmetry: Good
Girdle: Medium to Thick
Culet: None
Fluo: None
L/W Ratio: -
Dim (mm): 6.37 x 6.32 x 3.99

Round 1.02 E SI2 Excellent EGL Israel
Close
2,733.19
Depth %: 62.1
Table %: 56
Polish: Good
Symmetry: Very Good
Girdle: Thin to Thin
Culet: None
Fluo: None
L/W Ratio: -
Dim (mm): 6.46 x 6.42 x 4

Round 1.01 E SI2 Other 2,745.64
Depth %: 62.6
Table %: 55
Polish: Very Good
Symmetry: Very Good
Girdle: Medium -
Culet: None
Fluo: None
L/W Ratio: -
Dim (mm): 6.39 x 6.36 x 3.99

Round 1.01 E SI2 EGL Israel 2,745.64
Depth %: 64.8
Table %: 55
Polish: Good
Symmetry: Good
Girdle: -
Culet: -
Fluo: None
L/W Ratio: -
Dim (mm): 6.31 x 6.28 x 4.08

Round 1.04 E SI2 EGL Israel 2,761.45
Depth %: 64.5
Table %: 57
Polish: Very Good
Symmetry: Very Good
Girdle: -
Culet: -
Fluo: None
L/W Ratio: -
Dim (mm): 6.3 x 6.27 x 4.05

Round 1.00 E SI2 Other
Close
2,781.68
Depth %: 62.4
Table %: 58
Polish: Very Good
Symmetry: Very Good
Girdle: Thick -
Culet: None
Fluo: None
L/W Ratio: -
Dim (mm): 6.3 x 6.18 x 3.91

Round 1.02 E SI2 Excellent EGL Israel
Close
2,837.31
Depth %: 62.4
Table %: 57
Polish: Excellent
Symmetry: Excellent
Girdle: Medium to Medium
Culet: None
Fluo: None
L/W Ratio: -
Dim (mm): 6.41 x 6.37 x 3.99

Round 1.05 D SI2 Other
Close
2,838.36 Depth %: 62.5
Table %: 61
Polish: Very Good
Symmetry: Very Good
Girdle: -
Culet: None
Fluo: None
L/W Ratio: -
Dim (mm): 6.36 x 6.43 x 4

Round 1.00 E SI2 Ideal EGLUSA
Close
2,844.90
Depth %: 59.8
Table %: 57
Polish: Very Good
Symmetry: Very Good
Girdle: Thin -
Culet: None
Fluo: Medium
L/W Ratio: -
Dim (mm): 6.6 x 6.55 x 3.93

Round 1.00 E SI2 Excellent EGLUSA 2,844.90
Table %: 57
Polish: Good
Symmetry: Very Good
Girdle: Thin to Very Thick
Culet: None
Fluo: None
L/W Ratio: -
Dim (mm): 6.17 x 6.14 x 4.03

1.07 D SI2 Excellent EGL Israel 2,845.77
Diamond Details
Stock # OXB0300
Depth %: 61.3
Table %: 57
Polish: Excellent
Symmetry: Excellent
Girdle: Medium -
Culet: None
Fluo: None
L/W Ratio: -
Dim (mm): 6.6 x 6.54 x 4.03

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 10/4/2009 9:07:48 PM
Author: a11an

(EGL report above. Had a big of a problem posting the pic earlier.)

Thats what I thought too.



There's also an EGS appraisal valued at $11,800. It was appraised since aug 2008 and didn't sell for over a year. That's kind of weird too.

What do you think?

As you can see from the list I posted above, the diamond is priced comparably to other EGL graded diamonds, that is the usual price range they go for. It appears that the diamond in question is graded by EGL Israel whom are said to grade inaccurately in some cases, hence I again advise you to get an independant appraisal should you want to buy this diamond and make sure you have a good return policy. UD are a reputable company so that shouldn't be an issue. Also as I said before would you consider going smaller and getting a stone which has been graded by GIA or AGS? This would ease the concerns on grading accuracy, if you must have a carat for the budget then you will probably find that EGL graded diamonds are the only ones within your price range, so an appraisal and a good return policy is a must should you buy one, especially one which is graded by EGL Israel.

Don't pay any attention to the inflated appraisal value, this is normal and these figures are designed to appeal to the feelgood factors of buyers, if the diamond was worth that ( which it isn't) it would be selling for that sum in the first place.

So it comes down to you, you said you know the score with EGL and that they can be lenient on grading so your E SI2 may well be G or H I1 or I2 as EGL Israel graded - plus it might not be eyeclean, for your budget you won't be able to get a full carat with an excellent cut - although you could get a lovely smaller diamond. But again I would advise if you decide to go for this diamond or any other EGL graded stone, make sure you are covered by a return policy and do get an independant appraisal to see if the colour and clarity check out, then if not you can return the diamond.

 

[Paul-Antwerp]

Lorelei,

I think you misunderstand what I am saying.

If this diamond were indeed an E-SI2, every professional in the trade would immediately buy it, since it is way under the wholesale-price of an E-SI2. Getting the same grade from GIA would create a profit of a few K.

Even if both colour and clarity are over-graded by two grades, thus if the stone was really a G-I1 (SI3 is a grade with EGL), this price to the consumer would still be close to the wholesale-price, on the premise that the cut-quality is average.

Therefore, my point is that it is incorrect to gracefully state that the EGL-grade might be slightly exaggerated. Unless there is a mistake at play, there is no doubt that the EGL-grade is grossly exaggerated on this stone, and possibly the cut-grade too.

As a consumer, it is very difficult for you to judge this, especially since you are very good at keeping your advice as neutral as possible. Kudos to you for that. But as a professional, I feel that it is my duty to step in and add to your advice.

Live long,

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 10/5/2009 9:58:03 AM
Author: Paul-Antwerp
Lorelei,

I think you misunderstand what I am saying.

If this diamond were indeed an E-SI2, every professional in the trade would immediately buy it, since it is way under the wholesale-price of an E-SI2. Getting the same grade from GIA would create a profit of a few K.

Even if both colour and clarity are over-graded by two grades, thus if the stone was really a G-I1 (SI3 is a grade with EGL), this price to the consumer would still be close to the wholesale-price, on the premise that the cut-quality is average.

Therefore, my point is that it is incorrect to gracefully state that the EGL-grade might be slightly exaggerated. Unless there is a mistake at play, there is no doubt that the EGL-grade is grossly exaggerated on this stone, and possibly the cut-grade too.

As a consumer, it is very difficult for you to judge this, especially since you are very good at keeping your advice as neutral as possible. Kudos to you for that. But as a professional, I feel that it is my duty to step in and add to your advice.

Live long,

I see what you are saying Paul, thanks for the response! I think I did misunderstand, I thought you meant that diamond in particular was lower priced than other similar EGL stones, and I do agree that it is entirely possible that the colour and clarity are highly exaggerated on this diamond. I said " EGL are considered to be less strict on grading than GIA or AGS", I didn't actually state or mean that the grading was only slightly exaggerated - from that I meant that EGL are known to be soft on colour and clarity grading in very general terms, not saying to any particular extent because as you say from a consumer point of view that is where we can't advise with any real experience or accuracy - hence me trying to keep the advice neutral and that an impartial expert opinion is crucial when considering these diamonds for purchase.

If you feel that it should be pointed out that EGL are considerably soft on grading when advising then I definitely would be open to listening as I am not personally experienced as to how much this can be or how often, so would be very interested to learn more!

 

[Paul-Antwerp]

Itis one of the inherent disadvantages of having to give advice based upon incomplete information. Not much that you or I can do about it.

I think that it is very safe of you to base your advice upon giving a stone the benefit of the doubt. In this particular case, I can read more in the available information, so I can add to your advice. However, I also understand that it creates a situation that is on the borderline of forum rules.

It is probably one of the inherent weaknesses of a forum like this one. Consumers can only obtain incomplete information, and they expect others to give advice based on that. It opens the door to the incomplete information not raising a red flag, and a bad stone getting a good recommendation.

Live long,

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 10/5/2009 11:58:33 AM
Author: Paul-Antwerp
Itis one of the inherent disadvantages of having to give advice based upon incomplete information. Not much that you or I can do about it.

I think that it is very safe of you to base your advice upon giving a stone the benefit of the doubt. In this particular case, I can read more in the available information, so I can add to your advice. However, I also understand that it creates a situation that is on the borderline of forum rules.

It is probably one of the inherent weaknesses of a forum like this one. Consumers can only obtain incomplete information, and they expect others to give advice based on that. It opens the door to the incomplete information not raising a red flag, and a bad stone getting a good recommendation.

Live long,

I know it is difficult....Also the trouble is advising those on a limited budget which is something that comes up regularly, some really want a certain size for a small amount of money and its hard to know what to do, some won't consider going smaller and buying a GIA or AGS graded diamond and in these cases although I can only offer that advice and that the grading of EGL diamonds may be inaccurate, some are still set on getting that full carat for example, and then sometimes the only options are EGL graded stones which the buyer still remains interested in, despite knowing the potential issues. So the way I see it is trying to be of help to those who want to proceed in this way and to try to cater for these buyers rather than let them go it alone and maybe make a really bad purchase. In the end all we can do as consumers is inform the buyer as much as possible and then help them according to the decisions they make once they have all the info, its a difficult road to walk here as a consumer advisor, trying to help these buyers. Its not perfect but I don't want to let them think we cannot help if they want a certain size for the budget and they feel they are ok with an EGL graded diamond despite knowing the pitfalls, otherwise they could then decide to go it alone and perhaps make a really bad decision, whereas with some help they might find a decent stone which will make them happy - and of course ALWAYS making sure they know the importance of getting an independant appraisal and being covered with a return policy.

I don't know what the answer is, all we can try to do is inform the purchaser as best we can that these diamonds are priced this way for a reason then try to help from there, even if they still want to investigate these stones for purchase.

But I do appreciate your input Paul and you taking the time to offer your thoughts and advice, without it I can't improve as a consumer poster and it makes me examine what I am doing which is a good thing so I can make sure I am doing the best I can to help other consumers! I have read what you said and I will definitely be spending some time thinking about this and what I can do to act on the advice given and improve on the quality of the advice I offer.

 

[marmi04]

Hi everyone,

Lorelei, you made this statement below:

Actually there are lots of EGL graded diamonds of similar size, colour and clarity for this price and under 3k USD Paul, so not a pricing mistake. Yes it does of course raise concerns about colour and clarity grading hence the repeated advice for the buyer to get an independant appraisal. It looks as if this particular diamond is graded by EGL Israel which would also account for the price.

I''m curious, how was it determined that the diamond was graded by EGL Israel? I couldn''t see that information on the report. Is EGL Israel pricing lower due to historically less-than-accurate ratings?

Thank you,
Mike

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 10/5/2009 12:44:46 PM
Author: marmi04


Hi everyone,

Lorelei, you made this statement below:

Actually there are lots of EGL graded diamonds of similar size, colour and clarity for this price and under 3k USD Paul, so not a pricing mistake. Yes it does of course raise concerns about colour and clarity grading hence the repeated advice for the buyer to get an independant appraisal. It looks as if this particular diamond is graded by EGL Israel which would also account for the price.

I'm curious, how was it determined that the diamond was graded by EGL Israel? I couldn't see that information on the report. Is EGL Israel pricing lower due to historically less-than-accurate ratings?

Thank you,
Mike

I can tell from the numbering format Mike, also on the list of diamonds I posted above this one is mentioned and it says EGL Israel beside it.

You can do a search for EGL Israel, type it into the search box above and read many expert opinions on this particular lab, the main concensus is that this lab is well known for inaccurate grading. Here is one thread here.

 

[a11an]

Thank you Lorelei and Paul for all your great insights. I''m beginning to understand the industry a little more. Its true that sometimes if things are too good to be true, it probably is. Even though its tempting to always "wish" that I''ll luck out this time but it usually doesn''t work out that way.

I would actually try to acquire the diamond and return it if its not what I want but since i''m in a foreign country it might be a tad bit tricky to have to go through customs and shipped it back to the US again.

So I''m going to take ur advice and look for a smaller stone, within my budget and certified by GIA or AGS. Thanks again for all ur insights. I really appreciate it.

Btw, still feel a little tempted on the full carat. Must hold out...

 

[a11an]

Both your evaluation was spot on.

Union diamond replied me;

The diamond you have inquired about is stock number AB421579 1.10 carats, E color, SI2 clarity, EGL certified Round Brilliant Cut Diamond for $2568 wire price and is available at this time.

The Diamond has been certified from EGL Israel. Attached us a copy of the EGL report for you to review.

The diamond is very white, and has beautiful brilliance, however the inclusion is black in the center and visible to the naked eye.

I am not sure if you would still be interested in it, or if you would like me to help you find another diamond. Please advise what you are looking for (minimum carat weight, color, and clarity) and I will be happy to come up with some selections for you.

It is exactly as I feared, if its too good to be true, it usually is. Kudos for all ur accurate experience insights and also union diamond for their honesty.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 10/4/2009 12:46:14 PM
Author: a11an


Crown Percentage 13%
Pavilion 43%
Girdle M ,faceted



From my research, I was told that a diamond would still be acceptable to the naked eye with G-H clarity and SI2 as long as the cut is within a certain percentage. My goal is to have something around 1 carat under $3000 and would still look nice to non-diamond experts.

$3,000 will buy a nice .75ct,but not a nice 1ct.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 10/7/2009 9:26:01 PM
Author: a11an
Both your evaluation was spot on.

Union diamond replied me;

The diamond you have inquired about is stock number AB421579 1.10 carats, E color, SI2 clarity, EGL certified Round Brilliant Cut Diamond for $2568 wire price and is available at this time.

The Diamond has been certified from EGL Israel. Attached us a copy of the EGL report for you to review.

The diamond is very white, and has beautiful brilliance, however the inclusion is black in the center and visible to the naked eye.

I am not sure if you would still be interested in it, or if you would like me to help you find another diamond. Please advise what you are looking for (minimum carat weight, color, and clarity) and I will be happy to come up with some selections for you.

It is exactly as I feared, if its too good to be true, it usually is. Kudos for all ur accurate experience insights and also union diamond for their honesty.

Thanks for the update a11an, much appreciated!