EGL Israel Cert--Is It Worthless?

[Haven]

Okay, all, here''s another question.

The cushion that we''ve been looking at is an EGL cert, but not an EGL-USA. I didn''t realize there was a difference until today when I searched some old PS threads, and now I''m pretty sure it''s an EGL-Israel cert. (The cert no. is 10 digits long and the first two digits represent the year it was certified, 26 = 2006.) The stone is also from Israel, so logic would follow . . .

Is this certificate worthless? The stone was graded in November 2006, and all the threads I''ve found seem to be pretty much in agreement that EGL Israel certs are not worth the paper they are written on. HOWEVER, the threads are all at least a few years old--has this changed? Any appraisers/experts/well-informed PSers willing to throw out some info here?

I''ve posted info about the cushion in question on this thread:
Cushion Thread

We''re still waiting to hear back from Mark at ERD about some cushions, so this stone is certainly not our only option. In fact, I didn''t even think our local jeweler would be able to find a competitively priced stone after all I''ve read on PS about online diamond prices. Perhaps this is why this stone is so competitive?

What would you do? I''m going to talk to my jeweler about it tomorrow and see what he says. If we remain interested in this stone, should we ask to have it appraised by a third party prior to purchase? Can we even do that? I really fell in love with this stone, but I want to make sure BF gets a fair price for what he ends up purchasing, of course.

Thanks for all of your help!

 

[strmrdr]

yea the report is worthless id have a 3rd party appraiser grade it with a return policy if the grade don''t match or no sale.
I''d get it in writing and use a credit card.

 

[Richard Sherwood]

Date: 7/29/2007 8:50:16 PM
Author:Haven

Is this certificate worthless?

Yes, in my opinion.

That doesn't mean the stone is though. You just need to have it appraised by someone who grades accurately. Then you'll know if the diamond is priced appropriately for what it really is. Which is usually the situation, by the way.

 

[neatfreak]

I agree with Richard- just because the cert might be worthless doesn''t mean the stone is!!! And Storm has it right, just get it appraised before you buy to make sure you''re paying a fair price for what it is, and you are set to go.

 

[denverappraiser]

They are very useful for the purpose for which they’re intended. That’s why it continues to be a popular service. The question to be asking is what is that purpose?

Hint: It’s a service offered to dealers, not to consumers.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[oldminer]

The diamond, whatever grade it really is, has "value". You may already have been asked a fair price for the diamond. Who can say?

We want people not to equate all labs reports because they do not all use the same grading structure for the categories they print on their reports. This can creat confusion for those who cannot grade their own diamonds. It does not confuse diamond dealers since they know the color, clarity and cut quality of what they sell without much third party assistance.

I have recently seen some third level lab reports right from Manhattan which are "way off", too. There seems to be no stopping this sort of edgy practice in the grading business. Being aware is cure enough for those who pay attention. The uninformed are still the unfortunate vast majority.

 

[Haven]

Thank you all for your responses, I really really appreciate your feedback.

I understand that a shoddy cert does not equal a shoddy diamond, and I really loved it in person. My concern is, of course, that I want to make sure the price is fair if we do decide to purchase the diamond.

The pictures on my other thread don''t truly represent the diamond, I''ve never taken pictures of a diamond before and I only took two pics of this one, which I posted. IRL it is extremely sparkly, and in my pictures it looks milky and dull.

We''ve looked up similar graded diamonds online, and this price does look lower than what we''ve found.

What do you think?

Price: $12,000
Cushion Cut
2 cts
7.8 x 6.9 (no depth info)
G
SI1 (eye clean)
MB fluorescence
64% deep
59% table
VG polish
VG symmetry

Thanks again, everyone!

 

[JohnQuixote]

Date: 7/29/2007 8:50:16 PM
Author:Haven

What would you do? I'm going to talk to my jeweler about it tomorrow and see what he says. If we remain interested in this stone, should we ask to have it appraised by a third party prior to purchase? Can we even do that?

Yes and yes.

A jeweler who stands behind his/her product should extend a reasonable return period. If you love it that's most important. An appraisal will allow you to be sure you're getting an apples for apples price. Be sure to appraise the appraiser too.

 

[Modified Brilliant]

Date: 7/30/2007 8:56:02 AM
Author: oldminer
The diamond, whatever grade it really is, has ''value''. You may already have been asked a fair price for the diamond. Who can say?

We want people not to equate all labs reports because they do not all use the same grading structure for the categories they print on their reports. This can creat confusion for those who cannot grade their own diamonds. It does not confuse diamond dealers since they know the color, clarity and cut quality of what they sell without much third party assistance.

I have recently seen some third level lab reports right from Manhattan which are ''way off'', too. There seems to be no stopping this sort of edgy practice in the grading business. Being aware is cure enough for those who pay attention. The uninformed are still the unfortunate vast majority.

Actually, I think this "grading" situation is worse than ever! I have a thick file of "worthless" laboratory reports from 3rd level labs.

Dave, Your last comment regarding the "uninformed" is very true.

www.metrojewelryappraisers.com

 

[Haven]

Thank you John and MB for the feedback.

I assume when you say "third level lab report" you are referring to a report that comes from a lab that is considered third tier, as in below GIA and AGS? Can anyone clarify?

I''m still learning, and I really appreciate all of your help!

 

[kcoursolle]

I don''t know if it''s completely worthless, but it''s not all that meaningful either. EGL Israel are known to be off in color/clarity 1-2 grades or more!

If you stone has a good return policy and you are in love with it, take it to a good independent appraiser and decide whether you want to keep if from there after you have a good report about the stone.

 

[Modified Brilliant]

Haven,

The industry as a whole would agree that GIA and AGS are the "top" labs because
of their history, and consistency in grading. When we talk about "third tier" we mean
lesser known labs who have cropped up and provide lesser known sellers with "documents"
inflating diamond grades and values for the benefit of the seller.
There are dozens of "labs" that I''m still unfamiliar with that appear on a weekly basis.
Many look like GIA reports to fool the unsuspecting consumer.
Without naming specific labs...you can do a search on the most popular ones to get
more specific feedback.

www.metrojewelryappraisers.com

 

[oldminer]

The first tier of labs in the USA is GIA, AGS for diamonds, and AGTA and AGL for colored gems.

Second tier in the US is EGL-USA, GCAL. Because of size and volume IGI must be considered up there with the big dogs, too.
Outside the US you have HRD, a couple Japanese labs, IGI, Gubelin, GAGB and several others which command huge respect for their integrity. More second tier labs are on the way as globalization takes hold.

At the third level you have a wonderful group of relatively unrecognized names and labs which do excellent, detailed, accurate and complete work side by side with dirt-bag apprasers who do no one any favors. Some of the very worst labs are pretty substantial and reasonably well known by their initials. It is a very difficult situation. People on Pricescope know there are good and bad places to seek advice, but the poor average guy or gal does not know at all. To them, all labs are equal. The common person gets slaughtered on a regular basis. Since BS and cheating is so successful it is a hard thing to make it with honesty. There''s only so much business to go around.

Someday, someplace, there will be a day of reckoning. I sure hope to see it happen without this fragile house of cards collapsing. We want things to change for the better, but never at the expense of destroying the good will that still exists in the trade. It is a very sticky problem and has been for many years.

 

[diagem]

Date: 7/30/2007 4:44:20 PM
Author: oldminer
The first tier of labs in the USA is GIA, AGS for diamonds, and AGTA and AGL for colored gems.

Second tier in the US is EGL-USA, GCAL. Because of size and volume IGI must be considered up there with the big dogs, too.
Outside the US you have HRD, a couple Japanese labs, IGI, Gubelin, GAGB and several others which command huge respect for their integrity. More second tier labs are on the way as globalization takes hold.

At the third level you have a wonderful group of relatively unrecognized names and labs which do excellent, detailed, accurate and complete work side by side with dirt-bag apprasers who do no one any favors. Some of the very worst labs are pretty substantial and reasonably well known by their initials. It is a very difficult situation. People on Pricescope know there are good and bad places to seek advice, but the poor average guy or gal does not know at all. To them, all labs are equal. The common person gets slaughtered on a regular basis. Since BS and cheating is so successful it is a hard thing to make it with honesty. There''s only so much business to go around.

Someday, someplace, there will be a day of reckoning. I sure hope to see it happen without this fragile house of cards collapsing. We want things to change for the better, but never at the expense of destroying the good will that still exists in the trade. It is a very sticky problem and has been for many years.

Three comments...

First..., Please lets not forget about the bribery scandal at the GIA..., it shouldnt be forgoten (that quickly...), even though they reached settlement!
Second..., I would not put AGL (Cape Beasly''s right?) together on the same level as AGTA for colored stones! (Just my humble opinion...)
Third..., Please tell me where exactly you categorize EGL (European Gemological Laboratories -- World-Wide)?

 

[Haven]

Thanks to Kcoursolle, MB, Oldminer, and DiaGem (I was wondering when you would show up, DG!) for clarifying things for me.

Okay, so I just got back from the jeweler and I have to say that I am still absolutely in love with that damn diamond. However, back to business . . .

I asked him about the cert and as always he was completely open and upfront about it. He told me what I''d already read about on here regarding EGL Israel and their tendency to grade colors softer, and he said we should absolutely have the stone appraised by a third party. Then he brought out some GIA certified diamonds in various colors, all with MB fluor (because the cushion in question has MB fluor) and suggested I look at them all and compare them to see if my eye could tell where the cushion fit in the range. That cushion looks like a bright white diamond to me, and it was definitely whiter than the GIA H, so I''m pretty happy. We spent a long time looking at the stone under the magnifying glass the last time we were there to make sure it is eye clean, which it is.

So, bottom line, I''m not deterred by this EGL Israel cert, the diamond is beautiful, and I like that it''s different from most cushions I''ve seen.

I''m still waiting to hear from Mark T at ERD, he''s supposed to contact me today, so once we see what he''s come up with we''ll be able to make a decision about whether we want to stick with our jeweler''s diamond or have Mark send in one of his.

Thanks again to everyone for your feedback, I really really appreciate it.

 

[JohnQuixote]

Date: 7/30/2007 4:44:20 PM
Author: oldminer
The first tier of labs in the USA is GIA, AGS for diamonds, and AGTA and AGL for colored gems.

Second tier in the US is EGL-USA, GCAL. Because of size and volume IGI must be considered up there with the big dogs, too.
Outside the US you have HRD, a couple Japanese labs, IGI, Gubelin, GAGB and several others which command huge respect for their integrity. More second tier labs are on the way as globalization takes hold.

At the third level you have a wonderful group of relatively unrecognized names and labs which do excellent, detailed, accurate and complete work side by side with dirt-bag apprasers who do no one any favors. Some of the very worst labs are pretty substantial and reasonably well known by their initials. It is a very difficult situation. People on Pricescope know there are good and bad places to seek advice, but the poor average guy or gal does not know at all. To them, all labs are equal. The common person gets slaughtered on a regular basis. Since BS and cheating is so successful it is a hard thing to make it with honesty. There''s only so much business to go around.

Someday, someplace, there will be a day of reckoning. I sure hope to see it happen without this fragile house of cards collapsing. We want things to change for the better, but never at the expense of destroying the good will that still exists in the trade. It is a very sticky problem and has been for many years.

I agree and disagree. I''m largely in agreement about the first & second tier (though I consider HRD to be a first-tier lab), but I consider "third" to mean something uniformly lower. Yes, many labs and appraisers exist who have softer standards and/or give limited info, but it''s improper to lump all of the small entities together on one plane. There are dramatic quality differences.

There are small independently run bodies which maintain GIA/AGS strictness and give far more specific information to the consumer than even first tier labs do (most notably about cut). I consider these ''Boutique Labs.'' Notable examples are the AGR in Denver, AGA in Philadelphia and SGL in Sarasota. Others exist, but these are prime PS examples with which I have good familiarity.

I make this distinction because a consumer''s experience with a Boutique Lab is much different than it is with what I consider a third-tier lab.

 

[Richard Sherwood]

Hey!

Boutique Lab...

I like it!

 

[denverappraiser]

Thanks for the vote of confidence John. I also rather like the term boutique lab although the service we offer tends to be very different from the majors. The biggest issue is that we generally work directly for the consumer rather than in providing selling tools for the dealers. This difference is important both because of the pressures by the dealers to make more generous grades and because of the filter applied by the dealers by their mere presence as the client. If they agree with the opinion, it gets passed along, if they don’t agree it gets trashed. This makes the opinion more that of the dealer than of the lab. This is the conundrum faced by the 'second tier' folks being discussed. If they stand true to GIA grading standards, they lose customers and don’t get market share. If they use creative grading scales to attract the dealers and direct consumer advertising to promote consumer awareness of the brand and to bolster the image, the brand flourishes. It’s a vicious circle and many fine labs, like PGS in Chicago, have suffered with it. They are a quality and very ethical company that has been trying for years to become one of the major players with remarkably little success. If they would lower their standards I’m sure it would be good for their profits but it’s a small family owned company and they just don’t want to sell out. I applaud them for their work and I would love to see them grow but, frankly, it doesn't look like it's going all that well. The problem is that plenty of consumers don’t really demand better diamonds, they’re perfectly happy with better looking documents instead.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[diagem]

Date: 8/3/2007 3:13:28 PM
Author: denverappraiser
I also rather like the term boutique lab although the service we offer tends to be very different from the majors. The biggest issue is that we generally work directly for the consumer rather than in providing selling tools for the dealers. This difference is important both because of the pressures by the dealers to make more generous grades and because of the filter applied by the dealers by their mere presence as the client. If they agree with the opinion, it gets passed along, if they don’t agree it gets trashed. This makes the opinion more that of the dealer than of the lab. This is the conundrum faced by the ''second tier'' folks being discussed. If they stand true to GIA grading standards, they lose customers and don’t get market share. If they use creative grading scales to attract the dealers and direct consumer advertising to promote consumer awareness of the brand and to bolster the image, the brand flourishes. It’s a vicious circle and many fine labs, like PGS in Chicago, have suffered with it. They are a quality and very ethical company that has been trying for years to become one of the major players with remarkably little success. If they would lower their standards I’m sure it would be good for their profits but it’s a small family owned company and they just don’t want to sell out. I applaud them for their work and I would love to see them grow but, frankly, it doesn''t look like it''s going all that well. The problem is that plenty of consumers don’t really demand better diamonds, they’re perfectly happy with better looking documents instead.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

Selling tool for the dealers or buying tool for the consumer???

You decide!

 

[Modified Brilliant]

Date: 8/3/2007 3:13:28 PM
Author: denverappraiser
I also rather like the term boutique lab although the service we offer tends to be very different from the majors. The biggest issue is that we generally work directly for the consumer rather than in providing selling tools for the dealers. This difference is important both because of the pressures by the dealers to make more generous grades and because of the filter applied by the dealers by their mere presence as the client. If they agree with the opinion, it gets passed along, if they don’t agree it gets trashed. This makes the opinion more that of the dealer than of the lab. This is the conundrum faced by the ''second tier'' folks being discussed. If they stand true to GIA grading standards, they lose customers and don’t get market share. If they use creative grading scales to attract the dealers and direct consumer advertising to promote consumer awareness of the brand and to bolster the image, the brand flourishes. It’s a vicious circle and many fine labs, like PGS in Chicago, have suffered with it. They are a quality and very ethical company that has been trying for years to become one of the major players with remarkably little success. If they would lower their standards I’m sure it would be good for their profits but it’s a small family owned company and they just don’t want to sell out. I applaud them for their work and I would love to see them grow but, frankly, it doesn''t look like it''s going all that well. The problem is that plenty of consumers don’t really demand better diamonds, they’re perfectly happy with better looking documents instead.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

Very well stated, Neil. It''s a refreshing thought...."working directly for the consumer"...we answer to no one BUT the consumer.
And yes, the documents seem to be getting "better looking" as the content seems to be getting "worse."

Jeff Averbook, G.G. Graduate Gemologist (since 1986)

www.metrojewelryappraisers.com