Feedback on ring, diamond, and navigating purchase process

[clorox_white]

Hi everyone! I've read / learned so much on this forum, but I'm still feeling a bit nervous about navigating the process of procuring an engagement ring, and would welcome feedback.

Below are some specific questions, and additional details and photos follow.

Specific questions / requests for feedback

1) Wedding ring: Does the price I've been quoted (below) seem like a reasonable price given the specs and the photo? Any concerns or things I should watch out for with respect to build quality or anything else?
2) Why is there such a range of prices for diamonds with such similar specifications, even from the same site?
3) Any concerns with the specs of the diamond I'm considering below, in particular the cloudy area I was able to see with a loupe?
4) Anything I should look out for for the purchase process? The price I've been quoted is the "cash" price - is this typical for an engagement ring? Obviously paying with cash carries more risk than with a credit card.
5) In this price range, is a third-party appraisal warranted to ensure the ring and diamond that I receive matches the specification? If I proceeded with something like that, would that occur after I purchased the ring and after the diamond was mounted?

Background / Additional Details

First of all, my future fiancée and I have performed considerable searching both online and at local jewelry stores, and there's only one ring that she really loves, a Tacori-inspired ring we found at a small family-run jeweler. This jeweler is one of perhaps a couple dozen similar outfits operating under the same roof in a bazaar-like setup (they call themselves a jewelry exchange.)

The ring is 18K white gold, with approx. 3ct of diamonds on three sides of the band, along with two diamonds on either side of the center stone. Here it is below - not the greatest photo but should give you an idea. They are asking $2,000 for it, and (so far) are holding firm on the price.



As for the main diamond, my initial plan had been to try to find a good deal for the center stone from a reputable online seller, and possibly save on sales tax if I bought out-of-state. However, this jeweler is making a strong push to sell me the center stone as well, saying they can get a stone of any specs that I specify, and claim to be able to offer very competitive prices.

They've shown me the below stone below. It's a 2.01 ct GIA certified round, G Si2, with a "Very Good" cut and no fluorescence, priced at $8,800 / ct. ($17,688 total). The gf and I don't have the best eyesight, but we couldn't detect any flaws in the diamond without magnification.

With a 10x loupe, my inexpert eyes still couldn't really see any flaws while looking down through the table. When looking at the diamond horizontally, I saw a fairly large white cloudy area stretching the horizontal length of the diamond, and vertically covering perhaps 20% of the pavilion. The cloudy area was situated approximately half way between the girdle and the culet. After doing some more research, I believe I was seeing the twinning wisps referenced at the bottom of the GIA spec sheet. More detailed specs below (I haven't seen the full GIA report, just the specs listed below):



I compared prices to Lumeradiamonds.com and found their prices to be comparable to what I was quoted for very similarly specced stones. I also compared to Bluenile.com, which has a much larger selection of prices, and found 7 diamonds with the exact same specs (GIA-certified 2.01+ ct, G, Si2, Very Good, No Fluorescence) for a lower price. Here are the two cheapest, which are about $2k cheaper than the diamond I'm considering:

http://www.bluenile.com/round-diamond-2-carat-very-good-cut-g-color-si2-clarity_LD04173135
http://www.bluenile.com/round-diamond-2-carat-very-good-cut-g-color-si2-clarity_LD03835022

There are eleven (11) other diamonds on Bluenile matching the above specs, six of which are more expensive than the diamond I'm looking at. The Bluenile price range is $15,690 to $22,513 for diamonds meeting the above specs. As I mentioned in my questions, I don't understand why there is such a large range in price given all the main criteria are identical.

Finally, although I'm not opposed to purchasing online, the notion of being able to inspect the diamond prior to purchasing and doing it as a "package deal" is comforting, however the size and lack of a "brand name" of this jeweler makes me nervous. Given this is my first time making this sort of purchase, I don't want to mess it up.

Thanks in advance for the feedback; particularly if you made it all the way to the end!

 

[Gypsy]

Re: Feedback on ring, diamond, and navigating purchase proce

GIA Very good cut is not good. That diamond is over deep and is a steep deep. In short, it's a bad diamond.

In this chart your is the one in the middle:


The entire purpose of faceting a diamond is to reflect light.
How well or how poorly a diamond does this determines how beautiful it is.
How well a diamond performs is determined by the angles and cutting. This is why we say cut is king.
No other factor: not color, not clarity has as much of an impact on the appearance of a diamond as its cut. An ideal H will out white a poorly cut F. And GIA Ex is not enough.
So how to we ensure that we have the right angles and cutting to get the light performance we want?
http://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/diamond-cut
Well one method is to start with a GIA Ex, and then apply the HCA to it. YOU DO NOT USE HCA for AGS0 stones.
http://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/holloway-cut-advisor
The HCA is a rejection tool. Not a selection tool. It uses 4 data points to make a rudimentary call on how the diamond may perform.
If the diamond passes then you know that you are in the right zone in terms of angles for light performance. Under 2 is a pass. Under 2.5-2.1 is a maybe. Over 2.5 is a no. No score under 2 is better than any other.
Is that enough? Not really.
So what you need is a way to check actual light performance of your actual stone.
That's what an idealscope image does. http://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/firescope-idealscope
It shows you how and wear your diamond is reflecting light, how well it is going at it, and where you are losing light return. That is why you won't see us recommending Blue Nile, as they do not provide idealscope images for their diamonds. James Allen, GOG, BGD, WF, HPD and the other vendors we regularly recommend do.

The Idealscope is the 'selection tool'. Not the HCA.
So yes, with a GIA stone you need the idealscope images. Or you can buy an idealscope yourself and take it in to the jeweler you are working with to check the stones yourself. Or if you have a good return policy (full refund minimum 7 days) then you can buy the idealscope, buy the stone, and do it at home.


Now if you want to skip all that... stick to AGS0 stones and then all you have to do is pick color and clarity and you know you have a great performing diamond. Because AGS has already done the checking for you. That's why they trade at a premium.


I'd say you need to keep studying if that's what your research has found to date.

 

[Gypsy]

Re: Feedback on ring, diamond, and navigating purchase proce

Cut makes a huge difference in price. Diamond with crappy cut, like the one you are being offered, are cheaper than ones with better cut.

That is a large reason for the diamond price difference you are seeing.


Also, don't pay cash, unless it is with a PS vendor. Use a credit card. You WILL need the protections it offers.

 

[clorox_white]

Re: Feedback on ring, diamond, and navigating purchase proce

A bit surprised at the response, but I appreciate it, nonetheless.

By AGS do you mean the American Gem Society? I will research the links you provided, thank you.

In the meantime, a few thoughts:

As for the diamond not being good, I'm surprised, but eager to learn. Brilliance and fire is important to me, but my thinking was that an "Excellent" cut is the best cut on the GIA scale, but that "Very Good" was just one notch below the best, and should still be very good? Here's the GIA cut scale:

http://diamondcut.gia.edu/04_the_system.html

Could you tell me more why the diamond I'm considering would be considered a "poor" cut on the scale you provided?

Also, your chart above Goes from "Ideal" to "Good" cuts. I was under the impression that "Ideal" cuts were marketing terms that certain companies used, and that GIA (and other labs) didn't use that term. In fact, I had heard that some mass market jewelers include GIA Very Good in their own definitions of "Ideal" cuts?

Finally - obviously I have some more homework to do on the diamond itself, but do you have any comments on the ring? This is the only one my SO likes, so I'm thinking of going ahead and buying it (or at least putting down a deposit) to reserve it. Any issue with paying cash for just the ring?

Thanks!

 

[MarionC]

Re: Feedback on ring, diamond, and navigating purchase proce

Clorox, if that's the ring she loves I see no reason why you should not get it...except....
You should make sure the diamonds in it are good and will compliment the color & be the right size for the center stone you are planning to get. That's where it could get complicated - if in your search you find a diamond that won't work with the setting.

I bought my super-ideal online from a vendor here after months of research and have been 100% happy. Everyone sees differently and/or has other criteria, but if I were you I would check out hearts & arrows diamonds locally just to compare how they look to your eye.

I ended up buying a setting from a local jeweler because, like your gal, I fell in love with it.

 

[caldwa]

Re: Feedback on ring, diamond, and navigating purchase proce

Clorox,

I'd wager the vast majority of pricescope members put diamond light performance as the absolute most important aspect of a diamond. To get the best in this aspect, you'll need to get an AGS 0 cut rated diamond or a GIA Excellent. AGS grades diamond cuts with additional light performance metrics compared to GIA, so that you can be confident an AGS 0 cut will truly be ideal. GIA Excellent cut graded diamonds can have comparable light performance to an AGS 0 cut graded diamond, but one will need additional metrics to ensure this. Hence Gypsy's explanation of the HCA tool (to exclude poor performing GIA Excellent cut diamonds) and the idealscope images of the diamonds (to select diamonds that have minimal light leakage).

GIA's cut grading scale has a lot of variability of cut quality, even within the Excellent cut grade. Also, you're not going to see many good or poor cut rated GIA diamonds out there, because the diamond company will just send the diamond for Grading at a softer lab so the diamond sells for more. Thus, a GIA VG cut is probably the floor of what most here would consider. If even that. With the emphasis aced on diamond light performance here on pricescope, a GIA VG cut graded diamond is going to pale in comparison with AGS 0 diamonds and the best of the GIA Ex cut diamonds.

You have a very nice budget for a diamond. If fire, brilliance, and light performance are important to you, you'll need to get an AGS 0 diamond or a top GIA Excellent cut graded diamond. Here's what you could do:

1) Tell the vendor you want an AGS 0 cut graded diamond.
2) Tell the vendor you will only consider GIA Excellent cut diamonds that have an accompanying idealscope image. Share those resulting diamond images here and people will gladly help you decide whether the diamond will really shine.
3) IF the vendor can't do 1 or 2, Pick a recommended PS vendor for a diamond and you'll get that top quality diamond.

<edited spelling mistake>

 

[Gypsy]

Re: Feedback on ring, diamond, and navigating purchase proce

Yes, I understand the GIA cut system. The issue is that you don't. Guide to GIA cuts:

1. Excellent- category is too broad and includes many duds. Use HCA to narrow and get an idealscope.
2. Very good- Not good enough, 99% are terrible.
3. Good- Terrible
4. Poor- Execrable


AGS in contrast has 8 cut catagories for the platinum reports. And is the only lab that grades for light performance.

I have no idea where you are doing your research. But go up to the knowledge tab here and start with Diamond Guide and Advanced Tutorial.

You need to understand cut. Because it is clear you don't.

Also you should safely be able to go down to H color.

Finally, get your lady the setting she wants. But wait to order it (what's the rush, it's not going anywhere, they can always make/order one for you) until after you have your diamond as it will need to be made for your diamonds measurements.

And no. Don't pay cash. You need the protection a card carries, even with the setting.

 

[Gypsy]

Re: Feedback on ring, diamond, and navigating purchase proce

About Lab reports:

IGI and EGL are like large statewide universities.

GIA is Ivy League, and AGS is like the MIT rocket-science program.

A polisher or manufacturer sends each diamond (student) to the place it will get the best grade (earn more $).

The good to average go to the large universities (IGI/EGL).

The better ones are sent to the Ivy League (GIA / HRD) and a few nerds go to MIT (AGS).
Drop outs end up in a ‘program’ at a chain store or Joe's Bar & Grading Lab.

From here: https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/diamond-grading-report

 

[Gypsy]

Re: Feedback on ring, diamond, and navigating purchase proce

And though you didn't ask, since we are expanding your knowledge base, here's my 'blurb' on color:

It is important to remember is that color is graded FACE DOWN. Where there is NO light return. Not face up where there is light return and refraction. You wear diamonds set. FACE UP.

Within one color grade, even the labs can't agree on the color grades of stones and something could be a "high" H or a "low" E. So... no. Not really. Within 2 color grades it is hard. Not impossible. But very hard. And it gets harder once set. If you are talking ideal rounds, or any stone with ideal light return and no sharp corners it gets harder still because the ideal light return masks body color.

Generally we say to be conservative stay above H.

If you are talking fancy shapes without ideal light return (because there is no 'ideal' for EC's Radiant, etc) it's a bit different.

This is how I think of it.

Ever gotten one of those HUGE paint fan decks? Where there are literally 100s of colors of whites? And when they are RIGHT next to each other you can TOTALLY tell that one is bluer/colder and one is a bit warmer and which one is one is TOTALLY warmer. One there's one that's slightly greener. One that's slightly pinker? But really. They are all white?

Then you pick one after agonizing over this white or that white and when it's on the walls and people are like: Oh. You painted again. And it's STILL white. Great.

And you're all... BUT it's BLUE white. Or it's a WARM white now. It used to be ____ white. It's TOTALLY different.

It's like that. You are talking about shades of white. D is colder... J is warmer. But it's all white.

YES. If you have an accurately graded F and an H THAT HAVE THE SAME PERFORMANCE you are going to be able to tell them apart when you compare them side by side. Just like you would be able to tell if you painted your walls a warm white, but painted the crown molding a cold/straight white. But both are STILL white, you only see the contrast because of the proximity. But it's very slight, you could (and many have) set an F center with G sides and never tell the difference. And even H sides depending on the setting and the size of the sidestones... especially with round brilliants.


I want you notice all the qualifiers though. I'm talking about stones with the SAME performance. An ideal H will out white an F that has compromised light performance from a poor cut.

NOTHING impacts the appearance of a diamond as much as cut. CUT is king.

You want the shiniest whitest and brightest diamond out there: Cut is King. No other factor, not color or clarity or anything else impacts how white bright an shiny a stone is.

 

[clorox_white]

Re: Feedback on ring, diamond, and navigating purchase proce

Wow. I done got schooled. Clearly, I have lots (more) reading to do.

Thank you caldwa, Jimmianne, and especially Gypsy for all the feedback.

In order to get a higher quality diamond, it looks like I'm going to have to either a) go down in size , or b) up my budget. Any thoughts on the $ per carat that I should expect to pay from a Pricescope vendor for an "ideal" cut in roughly the G/H color range and reasonably "eye clean" (Si range)?

I'll be back with some thoughts on specific diamond specs based on the suggestions in this thread and the reading that I will do.

Thanks again!

 

[Roqsteady]

Re: Feedback on ring, diamond, and navigating purchase proce

For a 2 carat diamond, prices are going to be easily over 20k for an H+ color, eye clean SI1+ diamond. The good news is you guys seem ok with SI2 clarity, which might help your budget a bit.

1.8 G SI2
http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3075987.htm

2.0 I SI2
http://goodoldgold.com/diamond/11832/

 

[Jumpin_Jacks]

Re: Feedback on ring, diamond, and navigating purchase proce

Gypsy explained everything pretty well. This is a forum that values creme de la creme, so cut quality. So beyond color, clarity, or even GIA "rating", really evaluating the slightest difference in angles and how it affects diamond performance.

The reason diamond prices can vary drastically outside of same color/clarity or even certification lab is how the angles of the stone play to get you max light return since more rough material is lost to cut a truly ideal diamond vs most of what's on the market. If you can, if there's a local jeweler that has AGS ideal stones, compare with GIA Excellent or even Very Good. Right off the bat, all the stones listed are a bit deep and don't face up as big as other 2 ct stones at ideal depth %'s, these are so close to the 2 carat mark. They may have been cut to just hit the 2 ct mark on paper but won't be as lively and sparkly as a superbly cut 1.8. I'll let the experts chime in, but see for yourself if you see the difference to your eyes.

These are the general search parameters that are floating around, then as Gypsy said, throw non AGS ideal stones through the HCA calculator, get idealscopes and pics, etc..or go AGS 0 cert and light performance is pretty much guaranteed.

depth - 60 - 62% - although my (not sure which PriceScoper) personal preference is to allow up to 62.4%
table - 54- 57%
crown angle - 34- 35 degrees
pavilion angle - 40.6- 41 degrees
girdle - avoid extremes, look for thin to slightly thick, thin to medium etc
polish and symmetry - very good and above

note - with crown and pavilion angles at the shallower ends ( CA 34- PA 40.6) and steeper ( CA 35- PA 41) check to make sure these angles complement in that particular diamond - eyeballs, Idealscope, trusted vendor input - check as appropriate!

 

[Gypsy]

Re: Feedback on ring, diamond, and navigating purchase proce

If it were me? I'd shoot for a nice 1.8 carat ideal light return stone that is eyeclean and shoot for G/H color. I wouldn't up the budget.

A well cut 1.8 carat is a large and beautiful stone.

This is gorgeous and budget friendly: http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3075987.htm

 

[Gypsy]

Re: Feedback on ring, diamond, and navigating purchase proce

I would feel better if you went to visit a local Hearts on Fire dealer and make an appointment to have them walk you through their tutorial, and also look at some G-H-I colored stones.

That way you and your lady could decide your own personal color tolerances. Because many people who see ideal cut diamonds in lower colors are surprised by how white they are.

And if you and your lady were one of those people, then you could get something like this beauty: http://www.briangavindiamonds.com/diamonds/diamond-details/1.922-i-si2-round-diamond-ags-104069785003

 

[Gypsy]

Re: Feedback on ring, diamond, and navigating purchase proce

Another recommendation:

http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut/1.80-carat-h-color-vs2-clarity-ideal-cut-sku-299459

 

[Gypsy]

Re: Feedback on ring, diamond, and navigating purchase proce

Gypsy explained everything pretty well. This is a forum that values creme de la creme, so cut quality. So beyond color, clarity, or even GIA "rating", really evaluating the slightest difference in angles and how it affects diamond performance.

The reason diamond prices can vary drastically outside of same color/clarity or even certification lab is how the angles of the stone play to get you max light return since more rough material is lost to cut a truly ideal diamond vs most of what's on the market. If you can, if there's a local jeweler that has AGS ideal stones, compare with GIA Excellent or even Very Good. Right off the bat, all the stones listed are a bit deep and don't face up as big as other 2 ct stones at ideal depth %'s, these are so close to the 2 carat mark. They may have been cut to just hit the 2 ct mark on paper but won't be as lively and sparkly as a superbly cut 1.8. I'll let the experts chime in, but see for yourself if you see the difference to your eyes.

These are the general search parameters that are floating around, then as Gypsy said, throw non AGS ideal stones through the HCA calculator, get idealscopes and pics, etc..or go AGS 0 cert and light performance is pretty much guaranteed.

depth - 60 - 62% - although my (not sure which PriceScoper) personal preference is to allow up to 62.4%
table - 54- 57%
crown angle - 34- 35 degrees
pavilion angle - 40.6- 41 degrees
girdle - avoid extremes, look for thin to slightly thick, thin to medium etc
polish and symmetry - very good and above

note - with crown and pavilion angles at the shallower ends ( CA 34- PA 40.6) and steeper ( CA 35- PA 41) check to make sure these angles complement in that particular diamond - eyeballs, Idealscope, trusted vendor input - check as appropriate!

These are good for a quick reference. But it should be noted that it is unduly restricting (especially as to table) and that lovely diamonds can fall outside of these ranges. Using the HCA is sufficient.

 

[TC1987]

Re: Feedback on ring, diamond, and navigating purchase proce

I'll add my 2 comments:

1. Not all SI1 or SI2 are equally eye-clean. If you were looking at a SI2 that had twinning wisp inclusions, those might be significantly harder to see than, say, a dark crystal in the area under the table or one positioned directly over one of the arrows. You have to look at the diamond in 3D to determine whether or not it's eyeclean enough, or have the vendor do it and report back to you. The position and type of the inclusions has to be considered. There are some people on here who returned a VS1 or VS2 because it wasn't eyeclean from the side. Clarity is graded face up, only. Also, different vendors define eyeclean differently. GIA defines it as can't see the inclusion with the unaided eye at a distance of 12". Probably most buyers of e-rings would want eyeclean at much closer distance.

2. The issue with table size here on PS is that many of us prefer small tables in the 54%-56% range coupled with a steeper crown angle because that makes a more fiery stone. Whether you and your lady prefer more fire, or more brilliance, or a good balance between the two is personal preference. There's no right or wrong answer.