Fancy Diamond Help - Diamond Review

[LoversKites]

You definitely have done your homework and know what you are looking for, for that I'm glad. I'm just curious as to why 'perfect' square dimensions are so important to you. Since FCDs are cut with many variables in mind, like colour entrapment, rough shape, inclusion placement, weight, face up size, maximizing brilliance and fire, etc etc etc, I wasn't aware that there even was a perfect square shape. I'm not trying to challenge you - I'm genuinely interested. I understand wanting to avoid a thick girdle and a high depth % for a larger face up size, and many prefer a high crown and smaller table to bring out more sparkle, or prefer a balance between crown height and table size.

It's interesting to see someone so specific regarding an FCD's cut -- and I mean that in a good way because people tend to skip the cut aspect and settle for a questionable cut because FCDs are more uncommon than colourless diamonds (less options to look through). I've seen it happen a few times already in my short time interested in gems and FCDs.

And btw, you probably already read this before but it's a better idea to look at mm measurements than at ct weight because larger ct weight does not necessarily equal larger face up size.

Hello LoversKite,

Thanks for the response.

I really only have one answer to me being so adamant about the square dimensions: Its what the girlfriend wants

We shopped at some stores at Birks and Tiffanys and took a look at the few fancy yellow diamonds they had in store. The conclusion was she likes the bright colour (she was fine with fancy yellow before i drove her to a different location to show her the intense ) and wants the square dimensions of the radiant cut. She doesnt like the halo look when it is more elongated on one side.

This is why I was trying to persuade her towards cushion. To my limited knowledge, they are more commonly a "square" diamond shape. In my mind, it also would look better in the halo because the halos inner shape usually matches perfectly with that of the cushion diamond and would therefore cause no gaps (which I have learned that there wouldn't be with any shape with a hand forged ring - versus these stores that mass produce and don't customize the bands according to each specific diamond). All of the diamonds at the store had awful gaps between the diamond and halo. Not only that, but all of them enclosed the diamond with yellow gold at the bottom which makes it a) harder to clean and maintain and b) doesn't show off as much of the natural colour of the stone.

I have done a lot of research on these stones but have yet to learn about the crown and girdle (and a few other things you mentioned), so these havnt been much of my concern. Maybe I should begin researching this more. I have a feeling it will only complicate my search even further. I work in the engineering field and tend to study something in depth to make sure I am understanding every aspect. I impressed the girlfriend when I knew more about the fancy stones than the best sales rep for FCDs at Birks. I probably got her tingling a little bit with her now knowing that I have been researching them! She said she had butterflies when that FCD ring was on, I intend to give her a lifetime of those butterflies with this beautiful ring! ***cheesy moment***

I have been reviewing the dimensions of the stone in mm (see above where I requested dimensions to be +/-0.15mm). I have noticed in the 0.85-.90 range, the table dimensions are usually just over 5mm. So I am trying to keep the length and width to be within 0.15mm of each other.

Thanks so much for your feedback! I am loving the conversation. Diamond searching is usually quite a secret thing but its nice to be able to spew out some of the knowledge that I have learned in the past months and receive all your expert thoughts and opinions. Hopefully the girlfriend isint reading this

She says she wants the square dimensions of the cut. Table size doesn't necessarily determine the squareness though. It sounds like you just want an even square shape (similar length and width measurements). You can tell that from a head-on picture of the diamond. Table size is a more specific measurement -- see attached image. I don't understand the correlation. Am I misunderstanding something?

From what I know and in my opinion, in FCDs, avoiding an extremely thick girdle or extremely thin girdle is pretty important. More important than table size. Huge girdles eat up face up size, same with depth. Thin ones compromise the stone's integrity. The girdle size on both these green diamonds is really thick, for example (more than likely for weight conservation):
http://www.jamesallen.com/loose-diamonds/fancy-color/green/cushion-cut/0.72-carat-vs2-clarity-sku-175093
[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/my-visit-to-langerman-diamonds.204073/page-2']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/my-visit-to-langerman-diamonds.204073/page-2[/URL]

The truth is, with FCDs, specific preferences in cut are easy to compromise on.

If your last paragraph was also towards me, just so you know, I am far from an expert (very far) but I appreciate the conversation.

Happy hunting

 

[wizardman123]

Hello Travelgal,

This is a beautiful stone!! The dimensions are perfect for what I need. Unfortunately, this is only graded a Fancy Light Yellow which is 2 grades under my desired Fancy Intense. If this was a Fancy Yellow, I would have surely considered it, especially with its weight!

Hello LoversKite,

It was my understanding that the dimensions provided on the GIA cert were that of the table. So, thinking this, I have been using this to determine if the diamond is "Square" or not. Similarly, when I review these dimensions and determine if it is more rectangular, the head on picture normally looks more rectangular. Are you saying that since the dimensions provided are more of a specific measurement, I should only judge the "squareness" of the diamond by its appearance in a head on shot? If anything, you have much more experience and I am the one misunderstanding something!

As for the girdle, I will keep my eyes open for this! Is there a number or percentage that I should keep my eyes open for? Or is this done subjectively from person to person as well just from taking a look at the photos? I did notice the smaller table due to the wider girdle on these green stones. Thanks for the example!

Thanks everyone!

 

[blackprophet]

I would also reach out to DBL and see if they can find anything in your price range and specs. They are a reputable source.

The Dimensions measure the widest parts of the diamond as shown in that picture. It is a good way of determining how square it is. That being said I would def let your eyes be the judge rather than staying within a measurement tolerance (which you saying you are a engineer, makes so much more sense ) .1mm and .2mm is a hard difference to discern. .1 is around the thickness of a couple of sheets of paper. I would let your eyes be the judge.

And if I remember correctly, you are going to halo it, so you can get the halo as a perfect square and hide that .1mm extra.

I'm not an expert either, and you have lots of time to look. Just some things to keep in mind as you search.

 

[LoversKites]

Hello LoversKite,

It was my understanding that the dimensions provided on the GIA cert were that of the table. So, thinking this, I have been using this to determine if the diamond is "Square" or not. Similarly, when I review these dimensions and determine if it is more rectangular, the head on picture normally looks more rectangular. Are you saying that since the dimensions provided are more of a specific measurement, I should only judge the "squareness" of the diamond by its appearance in a head on shot? If anything, you have much more experience and I am the one misunderstanding something!

As for the girdle, I will keep my eyes open for this! Is there a number or percentage that I should keep my eyes open for? Or is this done subjectively from person to person as well just from taking a look at the photos? I did notice the smaller table due to the wider girdle on these green stones. Thanks for the example!

Thanks everyone!

The fact is I don't have much experience at all (99% of what I know is from the internet). So definitely don't rely on my opinion. Buuut, it makes sense that if it looks square in a photo, it is square. Since we're talking about really little stones (not to offend, the size you are looking for is very respectable in relation to everything, but these stones in general are small) I don't think a slight difference in measurement will be noticeably rectangular. For example, the diamondenvy one is rectangular in the blown up picture but IRL it'd probably look very square. It measures around 5x5.3mm. That is a liiiittttttle rectangular. Whether the halo will bring out the rectangular shape, I can't say. Others can comment.

Here's what I would do if I were you. Get some perspective. Take a ruler and draw out the measurements of various ones you're looking at. That way you can see the approximate shape. You can also draw them a halo. Don't consider anything that is noticeably rectangular to your eye. Since I don't mind rectangular shape I could just be less sensitive to noticing it. (If the squares look really small, don't worry, diamonds have a much stronger presence IRL and the colour makes them pop.)

You said you went and saw a bunch of diamonds IRL. I don't suppose you noticed the measurements that your GF started calling it rectangular, right? Then you'd know her limit.

You can ask the vendors of the stones you're interested in to take a hand shot from like 12 inches away if you'd like perspective.

Basically, my general advice is, buy the diamond and not the lab paper. I feel like many people buy gemstones based on lab reports rather than how the gemstone actually looks, when both are very important. Know what I mean?

GIA doesn't give the girdle a %, but it will say clearly something like: Girdle: medium thick to thick', or something like that. Avoid the 'extremely thick/thin' gridles and large variations in thickness. You can make another thread asking what is acceptable and what is not as I'm not sure. Refer to my lovely red arrow to see where it appears on the report (this is the diamond envy one)

 

[chrono]

You will find that you have enough of a challenge trying to find a great looking yellow FCD that is square and well cut that I wouldn't sweat a thick girdle. An overly deep FCD is more of a concern for me (paying for ct weight that I don't see face up).

 

[LoversKites]

You will find that you have enough of a challenge trying to find a great looking yellow FCD that is square and well cut that I wouldn't sweat a thick girdle. An overly deep FCD is more of a concern for me (paying for ct weight that I don't see face up).

Do you agree that an extremely thick girdle should be avoided?

eta: unless we're talking about those vivid greens, I'll have those.

 

[chrono]

If everything else looks great, I'd accept an overly thick girdle. If not, yes, I shy away from an overly thick girdle.

 

[LoversKites]

If everything else looks great, I'd accept an overly thick girdle. If not, yes, I shy away from an overly thick girdle.

That is rational.

 

[smitcompton]

Hi,


Lets go back to the comparisons that Leibish sent to you. To me it shows clearly that the two diamonds , .89, .90, have very similar coloration. I think thats the point of showing them to you. I would ask them to check in person if there is a difference in color. If leibesh says there is no difference or very little, I would buy the .89 ct FI Y diamond at quite a savings. It doesn't mean that other labs IGI always get it wrong. Save your money, the color looks fine to me.

Annette

If at some point in the future you want to sell, get a GIA report yourself.

 

[diamondenvy1]

This is why I was trying to persuade her towards cushion. To my limited knowledge, they are more commonly a "square" diamond shape. In my mind, it also would look better in the halo because the halos inner shape usually matches perfectly with that of the cushion diamond and would therefore cause no gaps (which I have learned that there wouldn't be with any shape with a hand forged ring - versus these stores that mass produce and don't customize the bands according to each specific diamond). All of the diamonds at the store had awful gaps between the diamond and halo. Not only that, but all of them enclosed the diamond with yellow gold at the bottom which makes it a) harder to clean and maintain and b) doesn't show off as much of the natural colour of the stone.

I'm curious, is a cushion cut still up for debate? I do think they look nicer with a halo than radiants do, but of course it is about what she likes. Has she given you any feedback on the idea?

 

[RADIANTMAN]

A thick girdle on a fancy color is actually a good thing. It can help enhance the face up color. If anything it's a sign that the cutter knew what he was doing rather than a problem.

 

[wizardman123]

Hello All,

I have been considering DBL as my main vendor and have been in contact with them. A conversation with David last month really reassured me of my choice for a vendor. I havnt ruled out Leibish thought because I did only find out recently that they have a NYC office. At first, I was under the impression that they were only an international vendor, which scared me due to customs and shipping. I saw the Leibish diamond and really liked it though! Just thought it was past my price point, but I can make it work with purchasing the stone first. I have reconsidered this stone now that I have compared some photos of FIY diamonds and found this diamond to be not as bright as others.

DBL is sourcing a diamond for me as we speak. They currently have a 0.73 carat square radiant that they are checking the availability on. The GIA looks great but the smaller carat weight concerns me. I am trying to stay above .8 if possible.

As for the square dimensions blackprophet, I have been trying to source something that was +/- .15mm. I think this would be my tollerance for an acceptable square. Anything more then that and I have found the rectangular to start showing off more. This was definitely something she was certain about - the shape of the stone and rectangular was a big NoNo

LoversKite, all of my knowledge so far has come from the internet as well. I appreciate you lending a hand and expanding my knowledge on girdle, depth %, etc. This was something I had really only glanced at before and got the feeling that depth % was best to stay within 60-70%. I think this is accurate? With the halo following the outer dimensions of the rectangle perfectly, I feel like the 0.3mm tollerance would begin to show the rectangle too much for her liking. This is why I was trying to keep that as low as possible.

I am definitely going to take a ruler and draw out some squares. I think this is a wonderful idea! I am also contacting the store in which we looked at diamonds to ask for the dimensions of their stone. We looked at a 0.74 which was perfect in her eyes and a .84 which was too much of a rectangle. I can find out this info - and I may already have the GIA in email.

One of the important points that you mentioned was to purchase the diamond and not the lab paper. I think this is truly important and it will definitely stick with me. The paper is a guideline to make sure we are along the right path, but the diamond itself is what we need to love. Thank you for this

DiamondEnvy1, the cushions are still up for debate, and it is definitely something that I was considering as well. I wrote earlier that usually, the inside shape of the rounded halos usually matches the shape of a cushion perfectly. This was something I was trying to tell my girlfriend, but she said she would want to see it first. I dont want to raise too much suspicion, but if you guys could post some of your favorite pictures with the cushions and halos with a delicate band, I can always save them and show her when the conversation strikes!

Since the parameters of my search are already quite specific, I will keep my eyes open for the Girdle listed on the GIA. But as Radiantman said, I will accept the thicker girdle if the other parameters are met. I appreciate the talk about this and will open my eyes to it going forward.

Thanks guys! Hope everyone has a great weekend!

 

[diamondenvy1]

Glad to hear it! I think she might really like the look. Unfortunately, as a member of the trade, I am not allowed to post photos of product, but I'm sure if you do a search you'll find something

 

[LoversKites]

A thick girdle on a fancy color is actually a good thing. It can help enhance the face up color. If anything it's a sign that the cutter knew what he was doing rather than a problem.

Interesting, thanks for the info. I thought it was more of a problem.

 

[Rockdiamond]

A thick girdle on a fancy color is actually a good thing. It can help enhance the face up color. If anything it's a sign that the cutter knew what he was doing rather than a problem.

to elaborate on Stan'statement: many well cut fancy colored diamonds do have thicker girdles. But that is not to say that a stone with a trim girdle cannot be a well-cut fancy color diamond
in fact, such stones are quite rare, but can be very desirable as they may have a greater spread than a stone with a thicker girdle. When the cutter can do this and maintain the color intensity the results can very desaablee

 

[JulieN]

As for the square dimensions blackprophet, I have been trying to source something that was +/- .15mm.

try this: it is square when the length/width ratio is <1.05