shape
carat
color
clarity

Face-up color versus body color grading

Status
Not open for further replies. Please create a new topic or request for this thread to be opened.

oldminer

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Sep 3, 2000
Messages
6,694
I think I have a good suggestion to make to bring improvment in color grading on lab reports while not alienating the most influential lab clients, diamond dealers. Why not always report the body color, as viewed from the side, as we do now for near-colorless diamonds and then also report the apparent color grade from the face-up view, too?

As it stands now, the labs supply and we accept face-up color grading on all fancy color diamonds and as a slight modifier of a color grade when a diamond looks more than a bit darker than its side view body color due to intensifications or cut style. For the majority of commercially sold diamonds, the near colorless ones, the convention for color grading has been to report side view body color, but at some nearly unknown, gray zone, switch for face-up view color grading to allow fancy color diamonds to be as strongly represented as possible to consumers. This is all understandable, but not at all scientific. It is laughable that with all the talk about making the system more reliable, we can accept this switch from side to top view because this is the method which makes the diamonds worth more. When openly reviewed, it is a failed system of grading, but the diamonds are still worth what their quality and appearance command in the market. Grading does not have any effect on the diamond itself and should have little effect on what diamond someone selects. Unfortunately consumers are misled by the crazy method of grading the trade has grown to accept. We could do better.

Wouldn''t consumers buying fancy colors like to know the actual color of the stone plus the apparent color created by the craft of the cutter as well? Woudn''t consumers buying an H color body color diamond like to know that as a result of cutting, their diamond appeared to anyone who would look on it in a ring as H, I or J? What the consumer sees in the finished jewelry, face-up, is what they will have to enjoy for years to come. Would a consumer want to buy an H color pear shape which had a I/J color appearance if it was competing with another with an H/I appearance at the same price? What if the I/J look was a lot less costly, or way more money? Wouldn''t they want to know these facts before making a choice?

With fancy colors, wouldn''t a consumer want to understand that of two Vivid Yellows one was light fancy yellow from the side and another was fancy yellow from the side? They would better understand the nature of each diamond and of the choice they were making. Would anyone be harmed? Would the market dictate a lower value for the light fancy yellow than for the fancy yellow if they both looked identical face-up? I don''t know for sure about the market for the finished diamond and the value in such an instance, but the value of the rough was definitely different before the cutter did his magic. Why shouldn''t the final value be diffrent too? Why should it be the same? Different perspectives will bring disagreements, I''d suspect.

Just how difficult would it be to report side view and top view body colors on reports? I don''t see it as a huge challenge. Would the trade accept it or why not? Would consumers want independent appraisers to report such details?

The trading of rough diamonds would not be affected by such a change in lab reporting. It would add to the risk and burden placed on cutters to make the face-up color acceptable depending on what outcome was desired. You generally want to darken or intensify fancy colors face-up while you generally want to mitigate color in the near colorless stones face-up. Is this additional risk the kind of thing a cutter can''t accept? It seems to me that the skill is already in place to make this "risk" very small and that the cutter already accepts it, but maybe I am naive about this element.

THANKS.
 

strmrdr

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Nov 1, 2003
Messages
23,295
We would be better off with the current system getting fixed so that it actually produced an honest repeatable accurate grade than adding another subjective grade.
once that is done we can discuss adding other options.

The risk of fraud is way to high to get into a faces up like discussion when a consumer is buying a diamond.
The value of a non-fancy diamond is based on body color.

To add anything else the entire pricing structure would have to be changed.
 

John P

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
May 1, 2008
Messages
3,563
Date: 5/26/2009 3:13:27 PM
Author:oldminer

...The trading of rough diamonds would not be affected by such a change in lab reporting. It would add to the risk and burden placed on cutters to make the face-up color acceptable depending on what outcome was desired. You generally want to darken or intensify fancy colors face-up while you generally want to mitigate color in the near colorless stones face-up. Is this additional risk the kind of thing a cutter can't accept? It seems to me that the skill is already in place to make this 'risk' very small and that the cutter already accepts it, but maybe I am naive about this element.

THANKS.
It seems to me that some accept it even now. I think I'm fair in saying that the jewelers we cut for expect less color face-up in near-colorless as a brand feature.

I do wonder if dual-grading would spur larger manufacturers to re-think cutting for weight if they could cut for better light return to improve grade.
 

oldminer

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Sep 3, 2000
Messages
6,694
It isn''t such a black and white issue. Near-colorless diamonds which have an unknown amount of intensification of apparent color in the face-up are currently downgraded for this by major labs. The labs teach and say one thing while doing something else on occasion. Whatever the lab report says pretty much dictates the final wholesale price.

As a consumer, wouldn''t you prefer to know the whole story without something potentially important left out? Isn''t the "truth" worth rocking the boat so long as we don''t capsize?

The guys who determine the asking prices are VERY intelligent folks who will know immediately how to adjust pricing. I wouldn''t spend a great deal of time worrying about them. They will know just how to handle any legitimate change brought into play.
 

Paul-Antwerp

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Sep 2, 2002
Messages
2,859
Hi David,

I completely and wholeheartedly agree with your suggestion. Also for the lab starting this kind of grading, it could prove a great unique-selling-proposition, since it is a consumer-friendly feature that could also benefit the good cutters.

Personally, I am still regularly amazed at what precision-cutting does to face-up-colour, and our retailers regularly report these surprise-stories, like how one of our K''s beat an excellent H in colour-comparison.

Having a face-up colour-grade could very well show that a perceived brand-premium could well be considered as a ''brand-discount''
2.gif


And indeed, I do believe that it could be a fantastic incentive for bigger cutting houses to cut for higher quality. The price of the rough is determined by the body-colour, but having a grade on face-up-colour could well create a possible extra margin that could benefit the overall quality of cutting.

I truly hope that a major trustworthy lab will pick up your suggestion soon.

That said, establishing such a grade will not be easy though. How would one set the comparison master-set? How should a body-colour H show face-up, and what is then the real face-up-grade of H? How is fluorescence and its effect face-up incorporated into this?

Then again, every solution also offers problems to solve, and I truly would welcome a face-up colour-grade.

Live long,
 

DiamondFlame

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Feb 7, 2009
Messages
680
An interesting suggestion. Dare I say it is more applicable to brilliant or radiant cuts?
And would not setting have an impact on face up appearance?
How about fluorescence?
Would this lead to greater segmentation of prices? e.g. an I color which faces up G will cost more than an I which faces up H.
We know how notoriously and subjectively difficult it is to judge ''face up whiteness'' using the naked eye... Should we trust our eyes or a machine?
How reliable is it? Wd the grading labs use the same device and same calibration?

Perhaps the real issue is: -
Given the possibility of having 2 differing color grades (face/body) for each diamond, will the consumer end up even more confused?
 

diagem

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Oct 21, 2004
Messages
5,096
Is an ''H'' face-up on a ''J'' bodycolor = brighter?
 

oldminer

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Sep 3, 2000
Messages
6,694
Rather than confuse customers, I would hope that such a system could be constructed which would make it easier for consumers to make a choice. There are many ways to make a system, and being careful not to injure the market is essential. In the end, consumers want to buy a diamond which they believe will look the best while meeting all their requirements. Body color is technical and is very much a part of the rough diamond trading structure. Body color is currently part of the finished diamond dealer structure, too, but the consumer, and often the diamond seller, is currently being compelled to assume the diamond will look the color that it has been graded. In so many cases, the body color and the appearance color don't match. With fancy colors we currently use appearance color, but consumers ought to know the color of the underlying material, too. It should work well both ways.

Pricing is handled by a free market. I don't know for sure how slight variations from body color to appearance color will alter the asking prices or the market values. I would suspect that in this competitive environment there will be adjustments for every case. That's why all diamond dealers haggle over the finer points. It is part of the game and we would not want to take the game away from the players. The game is why many diamond dealers refuse to retire. They enjoy the arbitrage of market to individual diamond haggling.

I'd say the majority of noticeable body color to appearance color situations have darker appearance than body color. Occasionally, a diamond might look less colored than its body color, but it is more unusual. I think a perfect situation is where a near colorless diamond looks no darker than its body color. Anything beyond that would be extraordinary or even an illusion. In fancy colors, we plan on the color appearance to be more vivid than the body color in most cases. So one must be careful in expressing how this would work. A desirable diamond ALWAYS looks as good as its body color or better, might be one way to say it. "Better" can be light color or darker color, depending on the type of color involved.

Some years ago, a very good gemologist, Stephen Hoefer had a lab specializing in the grading of fancy color diamonds. He had an elegant yet understandable system for describing all the areas of face-up color on any diamond that went through his lab. He co-wrote a book on the colored diamond collection known as "The Aurora Collection". It is truly a fine book with great photos of many fine colored diamonds. He discussed his system there and it made very good sense. He has laid the groundwork for such grading.
 

purrfectpear

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Mar 31, 2008
Messages
4,079
I''m going to take a wild guess here and say it might just provide TWO chances to be wrong
2.gif


Like Strm says, it''s subjective now...
 

oldminer

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Sep 3, 2000
Messages
6,694
The more variables the more opportunity to make errors. True enough. However, one might think that this is an opportunity to double check a grade by checking in an alternative direction. It currently would be subjective grading, but I know we will get past that hurdle in time.
 

strmrdr

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Nov 1, 2003
Messages
23,295
Do some secret shopping and see how bad it really is out there.
Then you will see where I am coming from.
Fix what we have now or scrap it and replace it.
Don''t add another area of potential abuse.
 

Paul-Antwerp

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Sep 2, 2002
Messages
2,859
Storm,

I disagree.

The current system of grading body-colour has historical roots, and you cannot change it overnight. It largely determines pricing, while it has no real meaning for the consumer, since in real life, face-up-colour counts.

Now, you cannot overnight go from one kind of grading to the other. Therefore, David''s suggestion is the only one feasible. Start with a second system on the side, and see if the market (and here consumers have the real power) will over time work more with the new system.

Live long,
 

diagem

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Oct 21, 2004
Messages
5,096
Date: 5/28/2009 10:33:54 AM
Author: Paul-Antwerp
Storm,

I disagree.

The current system of grading body-colour has historical roots, and you cannot change it overnight. It largely determines pricing, while it has no real meaning for the consumer, since in real life, face-up-colour counts.

Now, you cannot overnight go from one kind of grading to the other. Therefore, David's suggestion is the only one feasible. Start with a second system on the side, and see if the market (and here consumers have the real power) will over time work more with the new system.

Live long,
Correct..., and perhaps even translate it (second system) to brightness (or similar) vs. body color...

Like for example:

Body color: J
Comments: (none-faint-med-strong intensity) brightness...

None: no brighter face-up appearance.
Faint: slightly brighter face-up appearance.
Medium: brighter face-up appearance.
Strong: significantly brighter face-up appearance.

Brighter is just a word example:), just thinking loud
1.gif
.
 

strmrdr

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Nov 1, 2003
Messages
23,295
Date: 5/28/2009 10:33:54 AM
Author: Paul-Antwerp
Storm,


I disagree.


The current system of grading body-colour has historical roots, and you cannot change it overnight. It largely determines pricing, while it has no real meaning for the consumer, since in real life, face-up-colour counts.


Now, you cannot overnight go from one kind of grading to the other. Therefore, David's suggestion is the only one feasible. Start with a second system on the side, and see if the market (and here consumers have the real power) will over time work more with the new system.


Live long,
yes it determines pricing based on supposed rarity.
Garry already wants the tricked out color grade to be equal to a rarity color grade for pricing.
My answer is NO WAY!
There is no way the trade is going to throw out the marketing illusion of rarity so it will just be used to bump the cost of lower colors and open the flood gates to massive fraud.
 

denverappraiser

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Jul 21, 2004
Messages
9,150
I largely agree with David but would not limit it to issues surrounding color. When people look at diamonds and decide which one is ‘better’, and therefore worth paying more for, there is a complicated soup of attributes that are considered.

'Bling per square millimeter', for example, seems like a more useful attribute than weight to most customers. When someone looks at a ring and says 'damn girl, that's huge!', they are referring to face up surface area, not weight after all.

Whether a stone faces up ‘eye-clean’ is something that’s asked about constantly and for many shoppers is more relevant to their decision than clarity.

Durability is a component in both clarity and cut grading but does not stand on it’s own as a lab graded attribute and includes additional things like girdle thickness and internal strain that are difficult for shoppers to identify. Would shoppers benefit by some scale for this?

Transparency is another attribute that’s a component of clarity that can be terribly important in visual beauty, especially in the lower grades.

Like it or hate it, the existing system is here to stay and the next best choice is for vendors of stones that have additional features that they feel deserve promotion need a language for communicating that difference. Is a J color that faces up like an H a more desirable stone than one that doesn’t? I think it is, and this is a valid justification for asking a higher price. Sometimes this is the result of better cutting, sometimes it’s a result of color zoning in the material (and good cutting because the cutter took advantage of it) but this isn’t considered as an element an any of the cut grading systems I’m aware of.

Storm, I disagree that rarity drives prices although it’s often what jewelers like to talk about. I don’t have real data to quote but my feeling is that N-O-P colors are distinctly more rare than G-H-I, especially in the higher clarities despite the fact that they are generally quite a bit less expensive. What drives prices is market demand.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver
 

strmrdr

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Nov 1, 2003
Messages
23,295
Date: 5/28/2009 12:06:06 PM
Author: denverappraiser
Storm, I disagree that rarity drives prices although it’s often what jewelers like to talk about. I don’t have real data to quote but my feeling is that N-O-P colors are distinctly more rare than G-H-I, especially in the higher clarities despite the fact that they are generally quite a bit less expensive. What drives prices is market demand.


Neil Beaty

GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA

Professional Appraisals in Denver
^^^^^^^^^"marketing illusion of rarity"

Well cut stones are already getting a premium no need to double dip
 
Status
Not open for further replies. Please create a new topic or request for this thread to be opened.
Be a part of the community Get 3 HCA Results
Top