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Eye clean SI2?!

Alisonbee85

Rough_Rock
Joined
Mar 9, 2016
Messages
7
Hi folks,

I'm still on the hunt for a diamond for my engagement ring and have found the below on James Allen -

http://www.jamesallen.com/mobile/loose-diamonds/round-cut/2.01-carat-g-color-si2-clarity-excellent-cut-sku-748734

I've checked it on the HCA tool (thanks for the advice) and it comes out really well.

It's an SI2, but looks pretty eye clean from the diamond video on JA. However I've never bought something so expensive online before and wanted to check if there are any pitfalls I might be missing here.

Also, I was planning to use the online diamond expert on James Allen to help me on the eye clean point, have any of you used them before, are they helpful (and importantly, honest!!)

Thanks!

Alison
 

Gypsy

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Aug 8, 2005
Messages
40,198
You need to ask them to have their gemologist pull it and examine it. They need to tell you if the inclusions are safe, if the feather breaks the surface and if the inclusions are negatively impacting light performance at all.


I would not buy it without a "no" on both those points. If they say that they can't have a gemologist examine it, then you can take a risk on it and order it, take it to a good INDEPENDENT (this is key, can't work for or be affiliated with a jewelry store) appraiser and have them answer those questions for you. And return it if the answer is yes to either of those questions.
 

gr8leo87

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Apr 24, 2015
Messages
381
Hi Gypsy

Every feather breaks the surface - at least according to the GIA text books. Feather is a surface reaching inclusion (no matter how stupid that may sound). This is all according to the GIA text books on diamond grading. Not my opinion.

Regards
 

gr8leo87

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Infact they call feathers to be an inclusion that originates on the surface and penetrates inside and not the other way round.
 

Alisonbee85

Rough_Rock
Joined
Mar 9, 2016
Messages
7
Is a feather something I should be worried about then?

James Allen are going to get the diamond imaged and looked at by a gemologist, and I'll get a report in 3-5 working days. The advisor was able to confirm it's eye clean, but of course the gemologist will also check this!

Thanks for the guidance, I'll let you know how it goes.

Alison
 

gr8leo87

Shiny_Rock
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Apr 24, 2015
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381
In my opinion feathers are problem only in heavily included stones like I1 and below.
 

flyingpig

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Interesting. Always learn something. Thank you for info on feather
 

violetjane

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Nov 20, 2015
Messages
63
Hi there

Just wanted to chime in that my stone is an eye clean SI 1-2, it has a feather visible with a loupe but otherwise is very sparkly and throws a lot of light and color, I have no complaints whatsoever about it. Hope it works out for you :)
 

diamondseeker2006

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Jan 11, 2006
Messages
55,631
I'd be concerned about light return. It has clouds not shown in addition to all the other clarity issues it has. I'd personally much rather have a 1.8 ct VS2.
 

Alisonbee85

Rough_Rock
Joined
Mar 9, 2016
Messages
7
Maybe I just don't know what I'm looking for but it looks pretty sparkly in the 3D imaging! What should I ask the gemologist to look out for then - the impact of those clouds?

Alison
 

PintoBean

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6,379
I would also let them know what YOUR expectations are for eye clean - how many inches? from top? from side?
 

Alisonbee85

Rough_Rock
Joined
Mar 9, 2016
Messages
7
Hi all!

Just wanted to say a huge thanks for the advice, we ended up going for the SI2 diamond, having had James Allen's gemologist have a look. We think it's absolutely gorgeous and I really struggle to see any kind of inclusion!

Very happy!
 

lovedogs

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Jul 31, 2014
Messages
10,464
Alisonbee85|1462129819|4025881 said:
Hi all!

Just wanted to say a huge thanks for the advice, we ended up going for the SI2 diamond, having had James Allen's gemologist have a look. We think it's absolutely gorgeous and I really struggle to see any kind of inclusion!

Very happy!
Glad this turned out well for you! Do you have the stone yet? I'd love to see a real-life pic! :appl:
 

Rockdiamond

Ideal_Rock
Trade
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Messages
8,179
gr8leo87|1457696004|4003306 said:
Hi Gypsy

Every feather breaks the surface - at least according to the GIA text books. Feather is a surface reaching inclusion (no matter how stupid that may sound). This is all according to the GIA text books on diamond grading. Not my opinion.

Regards
There's conflicting GIA statements about this- also many people ( including me) have mentioned that they've seen stones with feathers as identified by GIA that did not break the surface.....so I don't think we can make a definitive statement about feathers....
 

msop04

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Rockdiamond|1462213001|4026198 said:
gr8leo87|1457696004|4003306 said:
Hi Gypsy

Every feather breaks the surface - at least according to the GIA text books. Feather is a surface reaching inclusion (no matter how stupid that may sound). This is all according to the GIA text books on diamond grading. Not my opinion.

Regards
There's conflicting GIA statements about this- also many people ( including me) have mentioned that they've seen stones with feathers as identified by GIA that did not break the surface.....so I don't think we can make a definitive statement about feathers....
I have an SI2 (with a white feather being the deciding factor for that grade) that doesn't break the surface. I understand that's the definition per GIA, but not all feathers break the surface. Strange. :think:
 

gr8leo87

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Apr 24, 2015
Messages
381
There have been no conflicting statement by GIA. May be conflicting practice.

For a feather it doesn't have to break the surface all the way through. A larger feather could be breaking surface partially.

GIA defines feather as a break in diamond extending from the surface.

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Rockdiamond

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Hi gr8

I don't have the time to search, but it's been found before where GIA has published conflicting statements on this issue.
Plus the fact many GIA graded stones have feathers that do not reach the surface....
 

MollyMalone

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Jun 2, 2013
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gr8leo87|1462222919|4026275 said:
There have been no conflicting statement by GIA. May be conflicting practice.
For a feather it doesn't have to break the surface all the way through. A larger feather could be breaking surface partially.
GIA defines feather as a break in diamond extending from the surface.
Is that a very recent change in definition? GIA does not so define "feather" on this currently posted page
http://4csblog.gia.edu/2013/diamond-inclusions-defined
where it also defines "internal laser drilling" as
Laser drilling that creates a surface-reaching feather, or expands a pre-existing feather around a dark inclusion so that it reaches the surface. . The feather then provides access for bleaching to decrease the visibility of the inclusion. [italics mine]
And like others here, I too have seen GIA-graded stones under high power magnification where the feathers did not even partially break the surface. What would you call those wholly internal inclusions?
 

gr8leo87

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Rockdiamond said:
Hi gr8

I don't have the time to search, but it's been found before where GIA has published conflicting statements on this issue.
Plus the fact many GIA graded stones have feathers that do not reach the surface....
I remember Jonathan of GOG got in touch with Al Gilbertson of GIA and he confirmed that feather must break surface. This has been the 'latest' consistent position in their communication and in their texts as well.

Another interesting thing with regards to plotting feathers :

Feathers (or other surface breaching clarity characteristics like etch channel, knot, cavity, natural [open inclusions in industry language] ) are plotted where they break the surface. All other inclusions are plotted on the crown if they are visible on the crown. So a crystal with closer proximity to pavilion and visible face up will be plotted on crown.

Breakage is the deciding factor of plotting feathers. If you see a feather plotted on pavilion it means the GIA thinks that's where it breaches surface. Even if it's visible face up.

It can be tricky to find breach at 10x and that's always not possible. If you are testing feather for breach under 10x you may conclude otherwise. The tilting the diamond to get the light to reflect off a certain position to make out the breach may not always work.


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gr8leo87

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MollyMalone said:
gr8leo87|1462222919|4026275 said:
There have been no conflicting statement by GIA. May be conflicting practice.
For a feather it doesn't have to break the surface all the way through. A larger feather could be breaking surface partially.
GIA defines feather as a break in diamond extending from the surface.
Is that a very recent change in definition? GIA does not so define "feather" on this currently posted page
http://4csblog.gia.edu/2013/diamond-inclusions-defined
where it also defines "internal laser drilling" as
Laser drilling that creates a surface-reaching feather, or expands a pre-existing feather around a dark inclusion so that it reaches the surface. . The feather then provides access for bleaching to decrease the visibility of the inclusion. [italics mine]
And like others here, I too have seen GIA-graded stones under high power magnification where the feathers did not even partially break the surface. What would you call those wholly internal inclusions?
I don't know I'll let GIA comment on that. And meanwhile I'll email my GIA tutor to get the latest position and also get you the definition from 2014 GIA text book.

And also find the reply from Al Gilbertson to Jonathan on this forum and get that link for you.

I'll also try and email GIA lab today and get their official position on this to get rid of this argument for good.

Untill then I would hold my arguments.

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gr8leo87

Shiny_Rock
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Apr 24, 2015
Messages
381
Here's a screenshot from GIA text book. It lists feathers under surface reaching inclusions. No ambiguity. That's how they define this everytime. Surface reaching.

I'll try to find the definition next. From the same set of text books.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

uploadfromtaptalk1462228796417.jpg
 

MollyMalone

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gr8leo87

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The surface reaching inclusions defined.

Feather is explicitly grouped under surface reaching inclusions.

Reference : GIA TEXT BOOK Diamond & Diamond Grading 2014. Page 10.

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gr8leo87

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MollyMalone said:
Think this may be the thread you're thinking of (found it via Google), but if Al Gilbertson replied to the queries, his response was not posted:
Edited to substitute URL for thread's 1st page
[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/for-the-experts-play-nice-feathers-and-cavities-clarity.210537/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/for-the-experts-play-nice-feathers-and-cavities-clarity.210537/[/URL]
[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=3830840#p3830840']https://www.pricescope.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=3830840#p3830840[/URL]

Here's the reply from Rhino that includes reply by Al Gilbertson.

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MollyMalone

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Thanks! for pointing out what hadn't caught my eye as I skimmed through.

So, it sure seems that GIA should amend that Inclusions page for consumers to add something like
"Feathers are plotted (or noted in the Clarity Characteristics section of Diamond Dossier reports, which do not include clarity-plotting diagrams) only if the feather breaks the diamond's surface."

I'm still left wondering how GIA views/characterizes -- for grading purposes -- wholly internal feathers.
 

gr8leo87

Shiny_Rock
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Apr 24, 2015
Messages
381
MollyMalone said:
Thanks! for pointing out what hadn't caught my eye as I skimmed through.

So, it sure seems that GIA should amend that Inclusions page for consumers to add something like
"Feathers are plotted (or noted in the Clarity Characteristics section of Diamond Dossier reports, which do not include clarity-plotting diagrams) only if the feather breaks the diamond's surface."

I'm still left wondering how GIA views/characterizes -- for grading purposes -- wholly internal feathers.
Again for GIA to answer.
Dossier report is a choice made by the vendor and a full report is also possible for diamonds under 1 carat. But the industry on the whole chooses not to bother with that.

GIA doesn't recognize (inferred) 'internal' feathers. But I know what you mean. And as experts had pointed out in the past those would be plotted as crystals.

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Rockdiamond

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I know for a fact I've personally inspected many stones with a GIA classified feather that did not break the surface- but I have not looked at this in a while to see if there's been a change.
Based on the ambiguity in GIA literature, I do believe a new look at the subject is in order.
We see a lot of GIA graded stones in a week- and many have new reports.
I'll see if I can find one that has a non surface reaching feather.

The only possibility I can see is that possibly GIA changed the practice in the lab.

I can reach out to our contacts there tomorrow.
 

gr8leo87

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Rockdiamond said:
I know for a fact I've personally inspected many stones with a GIA classified feather that did not break the surface- but I have not looked at this in a while to see if there's been a change.
Based on the ambiguity in GIA literature, I do believe a new look at the subject is in order.
We see a lot of GIA graded stones in a week- and many have new reports.
I'll see if I can find one that has a non surface reaching feather.

The only possibility I can see is that possibly GIA changed the practice in the lab.

I can reach out to our contacts there tomorrow.
Thanks David. That would be great.

If you could also get the representation on the magnification criteria to decide breach. Something that appears not to breach surface to 10x may appear to have a breach at a higher magnification.

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Rockdiamond

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Interesting point about level of magnification.
Of course an IF won't be IF if we're using 100X mag.
I do get your point that sometimes the break of surface can be incredibly hard to spot at 10X- which is likely the standard used.

There's been many cases where the feather came nowhere near the skin though......
 

gr8leo87

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Rockdiamond said:
Interesting point about level of magnification.
Of course an IF won't be IF if we're using 100X mag.
I do get your point that sometimes the break of surface can be incredibly hard to spot at 10X- which is likely the standard used.

There's been many cases where the feather came nowhere near the skin though......
It had been My understanding as well for a long period and my father didn't agree either when I told him that every feather needed to break the surface. But looks like that understanding needs an overhaul industry wide. Or at least a proper clarification. Currently the GIA literature describes feather as surface reaching in black and white. It could've been Grey before the latest literature was produced and published.

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